When being big and fucking hard just isn't enough

[leftpeg]

Sorry if this has already been the subject of a thread but I can't be arsed to look back and check.

Steven Gerrard's place in the team is one of the single biggest issues facing Rodgers this season. Let me start by applying all of the usual caveats about loving him and acknowledging his undoubted place in our top 2 list of all time players.

The harsh reality is, based on form, team shape (and player suitability therein), and playing style, Gerrard is now a problem. He lacks the mobility and tactical awareness to play the role he currently occupies. The holding midfield role does not just mean he sits 15 yards deeper and no longer plays box to box. He's got to track, cover, break up play, organise and play the whole of the board. More than one of his club and international managers has doubted his tactical astuteness to play in CM let alone deep centre.

If we have three at the top of the pitch in Sturridge, Balotelli and one of Coutinho, Lallana or Sterling that leaves three in the middle. Henderson is a guaranteed starter and I think Can will soon become a regular. However with Can in the side, where does Gerrard fit especially given that if Lallana or Sterling takes the 10 role the other will probably be accommodated behind. And that's before we mention Markovic.

So despite all of his brilliance and history the captain starts to look like the wrong option.

Rodgers wasn't afraid to drop Carragher and even when he did I think there was a stronger argument for Jamie's inclusion in the team then than there is for Gerrard now.

How long before Rodgers makes the same call for a Premier League game?

 

[Mystic]

Who replaces him? Allen, Can? I'm not convinced either can do as good a job as Gerrard yet. Whilst I agree he's not ideal, I think you're somewhat exaggerating his deficiencies and failing to recognise his ability on the ball, and how important that is to us, he's great at moving the ball around at the back, and moving the ball forwards, and to a degree, controlling the tempo of our game. He's got glaring flaws in his defensive side which will keep costing us, and it's very frustrating that he's probably not going to be able to sort them out, however dumping Lucas in there wouldn't solve the issue, and Allen might be an improvement in that regard, but we're going to lose a huge leader on the pitch, and rightly or wrongly, a player that lots of fans and players, fear and respect, Can just isn't ready yet. If a certain player who's in my avatar still played for the club, well that would be a completely different matter.

 

[gkmacca]

Even the supposed benefits of him playing in his new position - the so-called 'quarterback' long range passes - have been exaggerated. Yes, he has more time to assess his options and pick his pass, but so, too, do the defenders have more time to read his intentions, so much so that they're practically wearing napkins and holding up a knife and fork by the time the ball arrives in their half. Defensively, as has been said many times, he just cannot seem to appreciate what the space is that he's supposed to be 'holding'. Time and again, when a cross is drilled in close to the near post, it's Gerrard who is sliding in ahead of the defenders (note the occasion in pre-season when that caused so much confusion a messy goal was conceded). He's a man of prodigious talents, but positional discipline has NEVER been one of them. I still think Benitez was right that he's better off at this stage in his career playing further forward. But you don't just discard a player of Gerrard's class, you use him. We're just not using him right.

 

[leftpeg]

I we agree that Gerrard isn't ideal, then why not Can? I also agree Gerrard has and always will have great ability on the ball and yes his passing (short and long) is first class. But does he really control the tempo of our game? I don't think so. As for leadership on the pitch I think most would agree he delivered that by example and by being the lynchpin that he was for so many years. If he's beginning to lose those attributes then so his leadership also diminishes.

The obvious parallel for me was Robson / Ferguson at Utd. I'm not saying we jettison Gerrard immediately and ruthlessly. Nor is this about 'best 11' because I agree entirely with Ryan about all of that. Gerrard still has a role to play, a big role from time to time, but I don't think he can remain a guaranteed starter for very much longer.

 

[Oncy]

Yeah totally with you Peggy.
Sad as it is he shouldnt be a starting regular right now. His legs are long gone and he lacks the mobility for the role. There is only so much running Allen and Henderson could do to compensate.
Id bang Can in there against Spurs and give Steven a sit down.

 

[Oncy]

Also Mr Rodgers should have made Stevie a player coach at the end of last season so that it wouldnt seem so harsh leaving him out.

 

[leftpeg]

Even the supposed benefits of him playing in his new position - the so-called 'quarterback' long range passes - have been exaggerated. Yes, he has more time to assess his options and pick his pass, but so, too, do the defenders have more time to read his intentions, so much so that they're practically wearing napkins and holding up a knife and fork by the time the ball arrives in their half. Defensively, as has been said many times, he just cannot seem to appreciate what the space is that he's supposed to be 'holding'. Time and again, when a cross is drilled in close to the near post, it's Gerrard who is sliding in ahead of the defenders (note the occasion in pre-season when that caused so much confusion a messy goal was conceded). He's a man of prodigious talents, but positional discipline has NEVER been one of them. I still think Benitez was right that he's better off at this stage in his career playing further forward. But you don't just discard a player of Gerrard's class, you use him. We're just not using him right.

Agree with most of that, especially Rafa's point about pushing him further forward not back as his career winds down. However when you look at the options we have in attacking positions (from CM upwards), is he a better alternative than spans of them now? This is exactly my point...I just don't think he naturally fits in the team for very much longer and we can't afford to accommodate anyone just for the name on the back of the shirt. Gerrard himself deserves far better than that.

 

[gkmacca]

Yes, that's a fair point. I like Can, although I guess I'm in a tiny minority who think he looks as though he needs to get much fitter before he's going to truly be able to do what his talent suggests he ought to do.

 

[peterhague]

I don't think he's good enough to get in the side anywhere any more, unfortunately. Can't seem to adapt to the deep role, and isn't as good as Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, or Lallana if played as an AM.

I kind of agree with Macca about Can, I thought he's looked a bit sluggish the last couple of appearances. Maybe that's down to the knock he was reported to be carrying. If he's fully fit, he'd be my choice. If not, Allen.

 

[gkmacca]

I don't know. I suspect that statistically Gerrard, at least in the short term, would prove to be at least as effective as Coutinho further up. Take away the odd eye-catching trick from Coutinho and weigh up his recent contributions pound for pound in terms of genuinely effective passes and shots and I think Gerrard would prove the more incisive. I'm very critical of Gerrard in certain games because I judge the performance, not the reputation, but I'm full of respect for him and don't think he's finished. I do agree, though, that's it'll be difficult now to move him to another position, but I hope it's tried.

 

[Modo]

Not gonna happen and it's not even comparable to Carraghers situation.
We're talking about one of the best player in LFC history here, I don't think Brendan has the guts to put him on the bench.
Last time a manager touched Gerrard everyone went bonkers.
Also, I don't know why I'm the one who has to spell it out for you but no one in the team can do Lucas job in midfield.
I'm sorry but Lucas is closer to being a solution than a problem.

 

[dmishra]

Even the supposed benefits of him playing in his new position - the so-called 'quarterback' long range passes - have been exaggerated. Yes, he has more time to assess his options and pick his pass, but so, too, do the defenders have more time to read his intentions, so much so that they're practically wearing napkins and holding up a knife and fork by the time the ball arrives in their half. Defensively, as has been said many times, he just cannot seem to appreciate what the space is that he's supposed to be 'holding'. Time and again, when a cross is drilled in close to the near post, it's Gerrard who is sliding in ahead of the defenders (note the occasion in pre-season when that caused so much confusion a messy goal was conceded). He's a man of prodigious talents, but positional discipline has NEVER been one of them. I still think Benitez was right that he's better off at this stage in his career playing further forward. But you don't just discard a player of Gerrard's class, you use him. We're just not using him right.

I have to agree with this. I've been saying this for over a year as well - his penalties and occasional world class passes papered over many of his deficiencies in that role last season.

Allen seems to have bulked up a bit, and is a pretty smart player. I'd give him a go in that position to see what he makes of it.

 

[Leo]

If we drop Gerrard for Lucarse the imbecile I'm going to stop watching footy.

 

[leftpeg]

Not gonna happen and it's not even comparable to Carraghers situation.
We're talking about one of the best player in LFC history here, I don't think Brendan has the guts to put him on the bench.
Last time a manager touched Gerrard everyone went bonkers.
Also, I don't know why I'm the one who has to spell it out for you but no one in the team can do Lucas job in midfield.
I'm sorry but Lucas is closer to being a solution than a problem.

How does it differ to the Carragher situation? Legend, local lad, fans favourite, big game player, one of the all time greats.

And if we can't drop him because he's one of the best ever, why isn't Dalglish still getting a game. And if reputation is all that matters, why isn't Dalglish still manager? And as for Rodgers' courage...he dropped Carragher and made Suarez train with the kids. Rodgers has balls.

Which manager 'touched' Gerrard and when? He's never been dropped by Liverpool.

As for Lucas, if he's the best we have in that position, where does Gerrard fit? Who do you leave out to make way for Gerrard?

 

[Modo]

Give me a minute

 

[RedStar]

I think the time has finally come to start phasing him out, or at least using him more sparingly. For all the talk of his renaissance last season in a deep playermaking position it never quite made sense. Time and again we got completely ragged late on in games when the opposition started pouring through our midfield and we needed a player to take control in midfield and snuff out the attack, we survived quite a few of those games on sheer luck not because Gerrard was doing a good job marshaling the midfield.As others have noted positionally hes been suspect for years and now that he is no longer mobile enough to cover as much ground he is part of the problem we see with our midfield being over run as soon as the opposition start running at us with pace.

At the other end he scored 13 but 10 of those were from the penalty spot and given Balotelli and Lambert are both more efficient penalty takers it would appear that taking him out of the team wouldnt do much damage in terms of goals for. He also had 13 assists over the season which is a massive return, but is it enough considering a large number were from corners/free kicks. It appears that Gerrard has reached the point that Beckham did late in his career where hes only really worth keeping around because of his set pieces, from open play hes not offering alot.

It would be a lot easier to start transitioning him out of the team if we had an actual defensive midfielder but even as it stands his lack of mobility means the other 2 midfielders need to run themselves into the ground in order to keep a high tempo when the opposition are in possession, which means our traditional slump around the 60 minute mark is hardly a coincidence. Id try Can in his position in the home game against Villa, we need to start looking at the alternatives because sooner or later we are going to need one

 

[Oncy]

How does it differ to the Carragher situation? Legend, local lad, fans favourite, big game player, one of the all time greats.

And if we can't drop him because he's one of the best ever, why isn't Dalglish still getting a game. And if reputation is all that matters, why isn't Dalglish still manager? And as for Rodgers' courage...he dropped Carragher and made Suarez train with the kids. Rodgers has balls.

Which manager 'touched' Gerrard and when? He's never been dropped by Liverpool.

As for Lucas, if he's the best we have in that position, where does Gerrard fit? Who do you leave out to make way for Gerrard?

Modo doesnt rate Carragher.
Dont. Just dont.

 

[Mamma Mia]

It seems ridiculous two games into the season but he looks like he needs a Schmeichel-style vacation. He had a draining season and a harrowing World Cup and emotionally he still looks like he's at the end of a campaign instead of being full of hope and hunger at the start of one.

 

[Halmeister]

It seems ridiculous two games into the season but he looks like he needs a Schmeichel-style vacation. He had a draining season and a harrowing World Cup and emotionally he still looks like he's at the end of a campaign instead of being full of hope and hunger at the start of one.

Coutinho wasn't in the WC squad...

 

[KopRed]

Our midfield is being over run by average players (ie Southampton's). We have gaping holes in front of our defence. We do not track runners. Shouldn't the DM take some part of the blame and be replaced? Whether that is Gerrard or not is irrelevant.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

In the past two seasons, Gerrard has been a pretty slow burner - he starts poorly, and then starts getting into the swing of things around December and then has a markedly different second half of the season. Can't explain it - could be him pacing himself, could be the team playing better on the whole in the second half (see the thread on Rodgers' record in the second half of seasons), could be fewer games in the second half, I don't know.

I'm not saying Morse's MOTM polls are a good indicator of his performance, but since we're looking at folks' opinion of his performances, it's relevant I guess to consider what it said, at least for last season (I didn't have this charted up for the season before last).

So last season:

We played 43 games (all competitions) last season. If you look at the points he picked up - he didn't get any until game 10. From there, he started picking up points steadily for 6 games and then it flatlined for a while again (probably partly due to games missed in December - I didn't go back to see which games these were). From games 17 to 29, he picked up only 5 points. Down the final 14 games though, he steadily picked up 22 points.

If we cut the season neatly down into half (21 games first half, 22 second half), then:
-- In the first half: Gerrard was joint-6th in the team in MOTM votes (with Sterling, incidentally).
-- In the second half, Gerrard picked up the 2nd highest number of MOTM votes, just coming in ahead of Skrtel and Suarez (and far after Sterling).

Is he going to repeat that? I don't know; maybe, maybe not. I thought I'd share a different angle on this, if someone hasn't brought it up yet. What I'm saying is - it's 2 games into the season; we knew full well what he is and isn't good at entering it. It's nothing new. Maybe Rodgers can work with him to manage his pace / minutes better so we have him coming in fresh in the second half of the season, while a younger tiger expends his energy in the first half. Or maybe this is the season he finally has got to be pulled out because the decline has sharpened. I don't know - he looked good to me in the first 40 minutes of the City game. I'd be tempted to monitor over a few more games.

 

[leftpeg]

Modo doesnt rate Carragher.

Well that speaks volumes!

 

[leftpeg]

So that graphs tells us the team finished the season strongly. I knew that already.

 

[leftpeg]

Re the graph and MOTM awards etc...it's not exactly scientific but I suspect Gerrard's marks are boosted a little when we're playing well, winning and generally creating a feel good factor. I just don't think any player, Gerrard, Coutinho or any other for that matter is so important to us that we can give them half a season to get up to speed. Fuck that, it's game time...now.

 

[leftpeg]

Give me a minute

You've had 43 but take as many as you need.

 

[JohnnyRocket]

He can't play the single holding role in a 1-2 midfield. It's just too dangerous. To keep him in that role he needs someone next to him, not in front of him. Which would mean a 4-2-3-1

 

[Modo]

You've had 43 but take as many as you need.

I'm at work...

Disregarding the part about Carra, Gerrard has been dropped before, remember Salif Diao?
But the most memorable moment is still the Everton game when Lucas came on and won us the game.
Still, I don't think Brendan has the balls to bench Gerrard. An injury would give Brendan a suitable excuse.
What more were you asking?
Anyway my original point is that Lucas is the only true Dm in the squad, so he wins by default.
Regarding Gerrard, he can play at Rb right? I'd leave Allen out.

 

[leftpeg]

I'm at work...

Disregarding the part about Carra, Gerrard has been dropped before, remember Salif Diao?
But the most memorable moment is still the Everton game when Lucas came on and won us the game.
Still, I don't think Brendan has the balls to bench Gerrard. An injury would give Brendan a suitable excuse.
What more were you asking?
Anyway my original point is that Lucas is the only true Dm in the squad, so he wins by default.
Regarding Gerrard, he can play at Rb right? I'd leave Allen out.

By all means disregard as much of your own argument as you wish.

So when you say Lucas wins by default, does that mean you would play him and Gerrard together? If you do that, who makes way to accommodate them both?

 

[peterhague]

Lucas is even less mobile and more knackered than Gerrard. It's a stupid suggestion.

 

[Frogfish]

I don't know. I suspect that statistically Gerrard, at least in the short term, would prove to be at least as effective as Coutinho further up. Take away the odd eye-catching trick from Coutinho and weigh up his recent contributions pound for pound in terms of genuinely effective passes and shots and I think Gerrard would prove the more incisive. I'm very critical of Gerrard in certain games because I judge the performance, not the reputation, but I'm full of respect for him and don't think he's finished. I do agree, though, that's it'll be difficult now to move him to another position, but I hope it's tried.

I was thinking very much this just today. There is really only one other place in the team he could play now, since his legs are going, and that's AM. If we put him there he probably would be better than Coutinho, he's stronger both in possession and in the tackle, he has the vision to play defence splitting balls when he pushes forward as his partnerships with both Suarez and Torres showed, he's a better header of the ball and it's the ideal position for him when we have a corner (which he should't be taking anyway).

However he won't last 90 mins there so one of Coutinho, Lallana or Stirling could move into that slot for the last 20-30 mins of most matches to give us more impetus. We would be getting the best out of Gerrard and it wouldn't weaken our team at all.