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Sunderland Post Match

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I shall go with the fact that every manager we've had since he joined has ALWAYS had him in the team every week. Even taking into account that we had Hodgepodge, that would suggest he does something right. Although obviously their opinions are not as valid as a load of blokes on the internet.
 
I shall go with the fact that every manager we've had since he joined has ALWAYS had him in the team every week. Even taking into account that we had Hodgepodge, that would suggest he does something right. Although obviously their opinions are not as valid as a load of blokes on the internet.

You forgot the Brazil Manager.
 
Yes he would, without question. Arsenal need a defensive midfield, Arteta should be playing further forward, Lucas would do the job their anyway, his only real competition is Flamini. United's midfield would be much better served with Lucas alongside Carrick in a there than any of their other midfielders. Chelsea, Mikel, lol and he'd obviously improve Everton.


Flamini is a far better player, but luckily for the other teams in the PL he's not capable of 90 mins any more it seems. Carrick is Lucas but with far better passing/attacking sense. Chelsea's best DM is Ramires. Everton now have Barry. I'd take any of them over Lucas.
 
Its a stat comparing 14 defensive midfielders in the Premiership.

I've just had a poll with meself and come up with the stat that a random sample of 14 players is 93%* likely to be bollocks.

* 14 random players plus Lucas: 14/15=0.93x100=93%
 
Flamini is a far better player, but luckily for the other teams in the PL he's not capable of 90 mins any more it seems. Carrick is Lucas but with far better passing/attacking sense. Chelsea's best DM is Ramires. Everton now have Barry. I'd take any of them over Lucas.


Notice how I said Lucas and Carrick should play together? Ramies is a box to box midfielder who would play alongside Lucas, Flamini is not better than Lucas. I'm very glad you (and Hansern) aren't our manager.
 
I shall go with the fact that every manager we've had since he joined has ALWAYS had him in the team every week. Even taking into account that we had Hodgepodge, that would suggest he does something right. Although obviously their opinions are not as valid as a load of blokes on the internet.

yes, because managers are infallible, etc. Graham Souness, Paulo Di Canio, Kevin Keegan, I'm loathed to disagree with anything they say about football, after all, they've all played the game at the highest level and managed teams at the highest level.

Is there a stupider point on a football forum?
 
Flamini is a far better player, but luckily for the other teams in the PL he's not capable of 90 mins any more it seems. Carrick is Lucas but with far better passing/attacking sense. Chelsea's best DM is Ramires. Everton now have Barry. I'd take any of them over Lucas.


Hyperbole central. Lucas isn't world class but there is no chance that Flamini is a 'far better player'. Flamini is regularly caught out of position.

The Chelsea comparison is unfair since Ramires plays further forward. Mikel usually plays the DM role. I'd rather have Lucas.
 
I shall go with the fact that every manager we've had since he joined has ALWAYS had him in the team every week. Even taking into account that we had Hodgepodge, that would suggest he does something right.


This suggests that the managers rated him as much as there wasn't another alternative to him. I rate Lucas, but I think he needs competition for a starting place, badly. And Lucas himself would be the first to say that competition for places is essential in a big club.
 
Is there a stupider point on a football forum?


No, it's pretty much the worst argument to adopt as by that rationale everything is off limits - team selections, transfers tactics... the manager knows best and we as fans are not fit to really have an opinion.

As far as the whole Lucas thing goes, I'm not really bothered about his supposed lack of contribution to the attack, the accumulation of yellow cards or even the silly fouls (which, yes can be quite annoying). What does bother me is the fact that our midfield as a unit has often been found wanting over the past few years and whilst managers, systems and players have come and gone, Lucas has been ever-present. You can point to this stat and that, which is fine, as it's all interesting stuff to take into consideration, but by this point I'd hope that most would agree that we have a problem with our midfield and have done (to varying degrees) for a number of years now.

Perhaps the problem goes deeper and the whole Lucas thing is a red herring... I think there is actually some truth in that, but I'd still happily see Lucas benched in favour of a new signing rather than spending another few years watching Rodgers or someone else try and figure out what the problem is. In fact, I'd happy enough to replace the entire central midfield.
 
I'm on the fence with this Lucas debate as I can see why managers do like him and I can't see how we could improve on him without having to fork up 12-20 million on a dm.
But using the he plays for Brazil line is laughable.
There is no chance he'll be in the starting 11 for Brazil come the summer.
He's been called up ta two meaningless friendlies and now he's in the Brazil team.
Please.
 
Hyperbole central. Lucas isn't world class but there is no chance that Flamini is a 'far better player'. Flamini is regularly caught out of position.

The Chelsea comparison is unfair since Ramires plays further forward. Mikel usually plays the DM role. I'd rather have Lucas.


No, Ramires is NOW playing further forward but started off as DM - where he was outstanding (and BTW if you watched the Spurs vs Chelsea match at the weekend when Mikel was taken off Ramires dropped back to play DM .... and then Chelsea took control).

You and Mystic need to remember the previous incarnation of Flamini (as I intimated, he's a little past it now) - Lucas is/was not fit to lick his boots.
 
Aaah the old "we need better" argument. A particular favourite of mine.

Up there with the other quasi-tactical fantalk bollocks you hear spouted from time to time:
"We're not getting enough from him"
"All he does is pass sideways"
"Where's the width?"

What does any of that generalised arse mean?

"Why haven't any teams come in for him." Christ almighty. why hasn't anyone come in for dozens of top footballers? Why did Inter Milan let Coutinho go for peanuts? Why did Barca let Yaya Toure go on a free? The value of a player from one club to another can greatly fucking differ you know.

Tell you what. If "we need better" - why don't one of you tell me exactly what it is from him (or from this superlative defensive midfield general you're hilariously alluding to) that he should be doing that he's not? Who are these better players you're referring to? Let's see what you've got.

Define the attributes that he's not bringing, but that someone - in his position, who actually exists - does actually bring. How would that aid the team? How would that add something we don't have? And by taking Lucas out of the side, what would that do to the balance, setup and overall performance of the team? How would we defend better? How would it allow Coutinho et al to perform better?

Do fucking tell me. Cos right now it just reads like some mealy-mouthed cliched bollocks without any substance. "We need better". It's such absurd shite. United need better than Rooney

Any if any one of you says; 'more tackles, goals or assists in your argument' I'll laugh square in your fucking face.

Oh and Dreamy - you're the bellend who claimed (righteously I might add) that "Lucas wouldn't be getting any game time this season" about 2 months ago, so your opinion on this subject, just like every other subject, is worthless.
 
Just wanted to add this Lucas compilation from the Stoke game.



* Can't pass while pressured?

* Poor technique?

* Only passes the ball sideways?

* Doesn't participate in attack?
 
Aaah the old "we need better" argument. A particular favourite of mine.

Up there with the other quasi-tactical fantalk bollocks you hear spouted from time to time:
"We're not getting enough from him"
"All he does is pass sideways"
"Where's the width?"

What does any of that generalised arse mean?

"Why haven't any teams come in for him." Christ almighty. why hasn't anyone come in for dozens of top footballers? Why did Inter Milan let Coutinho go for peanuts? Why did Barca let Yaya Toure go on a free? The value of a player from one club to another can greatly fucking differ you know.

Tell you what. If "we need better" - why don't one of you tell me exactly what it is from him (or from this superlative defensive midfield general you're hilariously alluding to) that he should be doing that he's not? Who are these better players you're referring to? Let's see what you've got.

Define the attributes that he's not bringing, but that someone - in his position, who actually exists - does actually bring. How would that aid the team? How would that add something we don't have? And by taking Lucas out of the side, what would that do to the balance, setup and overall performance of the team? How would we defend better? How would it allow Coutinho et al to perform better?

Do fucking tell me. Cos right now it just reads like some mealy-mouthed cliched bollocks without any substance. "We need better". It's such absurd shite. United need better than Rooney

Any if any one of you says; 'more tackles, goals or assists in your argument' I'll laugh square in your fucking face.

Oh and Dreamy - you're the bellend who claimed (righteously I might add) that "Lucas wouldn't be getting any game time this season" about 2 months ago, so your opinion on this subject, just like every other subject, is worthless.


So you honestly think that he's good enough , that if by some miracle we're a team right up there challenging for the league , in the last 4 of europe etc , that he is going to be good enough and an important part of our team ?

And i fail to see why it is so hard to comprehend that there are players who can offer similar attributes but at a higher quality and more consistently . Or even more amazingly have other attributes also which add even more to a team . For example Alonso , Busquets , mascherano . Of course no players is the same and lucas can probably do some things better then they can but if you took him out of the team and dropped one of them in instead i'd be surprised if overall we weren't stronger for it.
 
There you go. We just have to take Lucas out and drop Busquets in.

And there was me thinking most of your arguments were hysterical fantasies.

How wrong was I.
 
Ryan basically stared you all down and yelled, "Come at me bro!" And you all just looked away like a bunch of lame pussies. Because he's 100% right. And Ryan don't think you're special just because you can outsmart some Internet blokes who use lazy, stupid football platitudes like "he's not good enough" with absolutely nothing to back it up. Shocking.

But honestly I think that most people are watching a different game. If you spend a game just focusing on Lucas and what he does off the ball (which isn't included in Modos YouTube clip) you would begin to see what our managers see in him.
 
The major problem for Liverpool is that Lucas has spent too long without competition. Ever since Mascherano left, he's been guaranteed a starting spot, even when on poor form, and that shouldn't be the case.
 
This should be the new law of Internet, kind of like the Godwin's Law. Every thread on this forum, if it runs long enough, will eventually turn into a Lucas thread. This is just funny.
 
Lads, the important question to ask here is this; has any of you ever played as a DM? ..... Hmmmmm?

Haha... quite. And four managers can't be wrong, etc. "How many of you have played the game", "I'd rather listen to four managers than blokes on the internet". Seriously, fuck off.

I'm still waiting for one of these bellends to justify why the guy can't stop getting yellow cards and is STILL bundling people over like he did 5 years ago. "Oh but that's his job, don't make me laugh by expecting him to offer more than the ability to tackle and pass sideways, it's his job".

So no reasoning for him making the same mistakes he made years ago. No? No justification for him being banned for an accumulation of yellow cards by the SEVENTH game of the season? No?

Thought not.
 
hahaha...epic

Epic me arse, well done on spending the thread clapping along like the village idiot.

You mean it fits your blinkered South American loving agenda. Ironic really, given how one dimensional you used to label Carragher.

Ryan - you do know this is your biggest ally? You must be fucking made up.
 
So you can't answer my questions and have instead moved onto 'he gets booked a lot'.

You're a fucking laughable idiot Mark.
 
Aaah the old "we need better" argument. A particular favourite of mine.

Up there with the other quasi-tactical fantalk bollocks you hear spouted from time to time:
"We're not getting enough from him"
"All he does is pass sideways"
"Where's the width?"

What does any of that generalised arse mean?

"Why haven't any teams come in for him." Christ almighty. why hasn't anyone come in for dozens of top footballers? Why did Inter Milan let Coutinho go for peanuts? Why did Barca let Yaya Toure go on a free? The value of a player from one club to another can greatly fucking differ you know.

Tell you what. If "we need better" - why don't one of you tell me exactly what it is from him (or from this superlative defensive midfield general you're hilariously alluding to) that he should be doing that he's not? Who are these better players you're referring to? Let's see what you've got.

Define the attributes that he's not bringing, but that someone - in his position, who actually exists - does actually bring. How would that aid the team? How would that add something we don't have? And by taking Lucas out of the side, what would that do to the balance, setup and overall performance of the team? How would we defend better? How would it allow Coutinho et al to perform better?

Do fucking tell me. Cos right now it just reads like some mealy-mouthed cliched bollocks without any substance. "We need better". It's such absurd shite. United need better than Rooney

Any if any one of you says; 'more tackles, goals or assists in your argument' I'll laugh square in your fucking face.

Oh and Dreamy - you're the bellend who claimed (righteously I might add) that "Lucas wouldn't be getting any game time this season" about 2 months ago, so your opinion on this subject, just like every other subject, is worthless.

I dont know what they teach you at the Socceroos Outback football school of wallabys and kangeroos, but the term we need better means that we need to improve on the decent but average defensive midfielder we've got playing in for us.
The job his type of player does for us is priceless. Which you can easily see when he's out and we havent got another player like him, our point average drop. Which means its even more important to sign another quality defensive midfielder. Lucas hasnt got any compition and that isnt good enough.

Imho, which is what this forum is all about, we need a more physical, atlethic player in that position.
He drops down into defence when the 2 full backs bomb forward. Lucas is slow, gets sidepasses way to easy and pushed of the ball to easily. Its not an absolute must that he brings anything to the attacking side of the game because thats not his "job". But when he do goes forward its rather nice if he doesnt look like a virgin having sex for the first time and have some clue about what to do in the attacking third. The way football has developed I dont think you can have one player who is just good at one thing and nothing else in the side.
You need players that can perform all over the pitch.

Our midfield is weak and without anyone who can step up and be a force driving us forward.
Gerrard is 33 and on the decline. We cant expect him to run the midfield anymore. Sad but true.

Lucas should be a squad player for us not one of the important core players.
I'd go all out to sign someone like Fernando Reges or Gonalons.
They would bring quality and add to the team of what I think Lucas is lacking.

There are serious question marks regarding Lucas and how his injuries have hampered him. So for us as a club to achieve our goals we need to sign a defensive oriented midfielder regardless.
 
So you can't answer my questions and have instead moved onto 'he gets booked a lot'.

You're a fucking laughable idiot Mark.

If you read the posts most of it's been tackled already. But the best defense you can come up with is that we need him, because we don't have a defensive midfielder, that we shouldn't be expecting any more than side ways passing and tackling (which he can't do without getting carded consistently), because you know, it brings balance to the side - of course it does, we need someone to do the spade work, but there is the capacity to find better within that role and expect more.

Exaggerate all you want, no one is expecting 40 yard screamers, just a better all round game and the ability to offer more than playing the position and covering the ground without ever really excelling at any aspect or offering enough overall.

As someone said earlier, our finishing positions have been mediocre since he became a regular - I'm sure you'll continue to blame Daniel Agger, while overlooking the inconsistency of more typically error prone, erratic players like Lucas & Johnson because you know, you've made your bed and you're bound to stick with this notion that we don't notice the things he does well because it's a less flashy, unfashionable role that some poor cunt has to do. It gives us balance, blah blah. We know all that, don't teach us to suck eggs from your self built pedestal, it's just not unreasonable to expect better nor to be slightly fucked off with his idiotic, clumsy fouls - something that still hasn't been justified reasonably by anyone, because if it were the case that it "came with the territory", he wouldn't be the only player getting at least a ban every season for an accumulation of cards.
 
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