Sunderland Post Match

[Hansern]

So to sum up:

A few thinks he's the best midfielder ever. Top of the stat charts and made of titanium.
A few thinks he's the worst in the league.

Myself and probably a lot of others thinks we need to sign a dm/cm as competition for him. That, hopefully, can be of such quality that Lucas is a squad player in the future.

This will continue to go round and round in the same circles.

 

[mark1975]

One of the things I don't enjoy about this forum is the needless insulting when the debate goes against people. You point out the flaws in someone's argument and you are this and that. I come in here for some fun, and to honestly debate a bit. Moderators really do very little when someone starts flying vile around the place. It makes this place (occasionally) a pain in the arse after 7 years. It'd be good if moderators would do something about it, even if the posters in question are well liked.

Some people deserve it, if they're happy enough to troll in threads everyday and drag up old arguments to gain a bit of oneupmanship, then they can take it on the chin for acting like a nobhead. What's he offered to this thread other than "I still remember people saying Spearing was a better player". He's always dragging up old threads and can't wait to jump on any positive result as a means of confirming his beliefs , cf his endless Rafa and Aquilani threads. It's needless and tiresome and if he didn't act like such a cunt about it, he wouldn't get treated like one.

 

[Modo]

Don't cry when you get trolled then like Holle does.

 

[StevieM]

So to sum up:

A few thinks he's the best midfielder ever. Top of the stat charts and made of titanium.
A few thinks he's the worst in the league.

Myself and probably a lot of others thinks we need to sign a dm/cm as competition for him. That, hopefully, can be of such quality that Lucas is a squad player in the future.

This will continue to go round and round in the same circles.

No - I think a few of us have been trying to point out the fact that as a defensive midfielder - replacing him is not necessarily going to make a fuck load of difference - and we already have competition for him in Henderson & Allen.

What some is want - is money spent in the attacking third where were lacking in regulars and in depth.

A defensive midfielder isn't going to add the goals and creativity we need to break down stubborn defences.

I'll say it again - Lucas is not the fucking problem.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Which stats are you talking about?

These ones that @Mamma Mia posted yesterday:
http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/midfield-enforcers-ranking-stats.png
http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Table-Key-Midfield.png

And pretty much every comprehensive set of stats I've ever seen.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

No - I think a few of us have been trying to point out the fact that as a defensive midfielder - replacing him is not necessarily going to make a fuck load of difference - and we already have competition for him in Henderson & Allen.

What some is want - is money spent in the attacking third where were lacking in regulars and in depth.

A defensive midfielder isn't going to add the goals and creativity we need to break down stubborn defences.

I'll say it again - Lucas is not the fucking problem.

Yep, that's pretty much it. He's so far from the biggest problem it's unreal. Our other midfielders are producing next to nothing, and they're the ones that are supposed to be.

 

[mark1975]

Battling deep in midfield to aid our amazing defensive midfielder is obviously helping loads. Thank fuck Gerrard can ping the ball 50 yards to set up an attack eh?

 

[cloggypop]

Good job we won the match or this thread would be horrible.

 

[StevieM]

Battling deep in midfield to aid our amazing defensive midfielder is obviously helping loads. Thank fuck Gerrard can ping the ball 50 yards to set up an attack eh?

I actually have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

 

[iseered]

lol me neither. mark gets confusing when angry.

 

[mark1975]

I was jesting, cf the 3rd goal at the week.

Tsk.

 

[mark1975]

Oh and I was replying to Gerry's:

Our other midfielders are producing next to nothing, and they're the ones that are supposed to be.

 

[StevieM]

There's 2 central midfielders - always - where they're positioned & which formation is around them dictates how & where they influence play.

Ours sit deep - with a bank of 3 attacking midfielders & a striker in front - no need for a "box-to-box" midfielder or whatever - particularly when our full backs need to be bombing on to give width.

Those 2 midfielders aren't going to score much outsider set pieces, penalties or long range screamers. (Punts from inside your own half if you're spectacularly good).

I can see why Gerrard is being played their - bits it's a waste IMO.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Oh and I was replying to Gerry's:

Our other midfielders are producing next to nothing, and they're the ones that are supposed to be.

But they aren't. Gerrard has had a few good moments, and I'll forgive him given how brilliant he's been in the past. And Moses hasn't been here long enough really. But Aspas, Henderson and Sterling have produced nothing really. It's all been Suarez and Sturridge. The rest of the players need to step up.

 

[StevieM]

But they aren't. Gerrard has had a few good moments, and I'll forgive him given how brilliant he's been in the past. And Moses hasn't been here long enough really. But Aspas, Henderson and Sterling have produced nothing really. It's all been Suarez and Sturridge. The rest of the players need to step up.

Henderson shouldn't be playing in the attacking 3rd.

Gerrard should.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Henderson shouldn't be playing in the attacking 3rd.

Gerrard should.

Yeah, that's probably true, but he has played there and not produced much. I appreciate he's hard working etc. so was Kuyt, but at least he produced something.

Henderson either needs to play further back the pitch, or step up his productivity, or we need to look at replacing him.

 

[Holle]

Don't cry when you get trolled then like Holle does.

Hahaha!

WTF?

You're quite hilarious. A bit thick and sad but hilarious nonetheless.

 

[Buddha]

That's a much more salient point than replacing Lucas. Henderson offers nothing going forward and isn't as good at DM as Lucas.

Ergo Henderson is the one this thread should be targeting.

Unfortunately, our attempt to get a shit hot AM came up short in the summer, as encouraging as it was that we targeted well scouted players. Rectify that in January. By all means I'd like to see us buy some competition for Lucas, but we've more pressing matters right now.

Henderson either needs to play further back the pitch, or step up his productivity, or we need to look at replacing him.

 

[Hyena]

May as well not bother with the FA Cup either then, Wigan won it the year they got relegated. It's a rubbish cup.

It's not a measure of how good a team is.
Nor is the FA Cup.
I love that we won it, but we were still a shit team.

 

[Judge Jules]

Yeah, that's probably true, but he has played there and not produced much. I appreciate he's hard working etc. so was Kuyt, but at least he produced something.

Henderson either needs to play further back the pitch, or step up his productivity, or we need to look at replacing him.

Strongly disagree with that highlighted bit. His productivity is fine - he's always on the go, he's made chances and he's notched the odd one himself. I wouldn't mind trying him further back because I suspect he could do that job well, but he would indeed have to adapt, because it hasn't seriously been tried. I don't know how my friend Buddha can confidently assert that Henderson isn't as good at DM as Lucas - he might not be, but we can't know one way or the other when Henderson's barely ever played there.

 

[keniget]

That's a much more salient point than replacing Lucas. Henderson offers nothing going forward and isn't as good at DM as Lucas.

Ergo Henderson is the one this thread should be targeting.

Unfortunately, our attempt to get a shit hot AM came up short in the summer, as encouraging as it was that we targeted well scouted players. Rectify that in January. By all means I'd like to see us buy some competition for Lucas, but we've more pressing matters right now.

Henderson has largely played out of position this season and is not an out and out first-teamer anyways so unless you don't even want him in the squad there doesn't seem to be all too much sense in targeting Henderson.

Out of interest - why is buying another attacker our top priority?

We do need one and I can think of a number of reasons why you'd argue for it to be at the top of the list but am curious as to what other people think.

 

[Modo]

The obvious reason is that we lack creativity when Coutinho is out?

Or maybe just rewatch the Southampton and Swansea games?

 

[keniget]

The obvious reason is that we lack creativity when Coutinho is out?

Or maybe just rewatch the Southampton and Swansea games?

So we need a top attacking player to sit on the bench when Coutinho is out?

That's not a very good argument but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose you'd mean to play them together.

As for some our games this season, we've seen teams try and press us very deep in our own half, which our midfield has struggled to cope with and as a result our attacking play has suffered. Who would help more in that scenario - someone who can help us play our way out of those situations and into our opponents half or someone like Diego Costa?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Strongly disagree with that highlighted bit. His productivity is fine - he's always on the go, he's made chances and he's notched the odd one himself.

Has he? I can't remember any this season, besides the one late in the league cup. I would expect our midfielders to be involved in a lot more goals. I'm not saying Henderson won't be, or he can't, but so far he hasn't done enough this season.

 

[Modo]

So we need a top attacking player to sit on the bench when Coutinho is out?

That's not a very good argument but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose you'd mean to play them together.

As for some our games this season, we've seen teams try and press us very deep in our own half, which our midfield has struggled to cope with and as a result our attacking play has suffered. Who would help more in that scenario - someone who can help us play our way out of those situations and into our opponents half or someone like Diego Costa?

You do know that we have a player on loan playing on the wing?

If we could buy a player who could play on the right and behind the striker, no one would need to be sacrificed.

 

[Hansern]

No - I think a few of us have been trying to point out the fact that as a defensive midfielder - replacing him is not necessarily going to make a fuck load of difference - and we already have competition for him in Henderson & Allen.

What some is want - is money spent in the attacking third where were lacking in regulars and in depth.

A defensive midfielder isn't going to add the goals and creativity we need to break down stubborn defences.

I'll say it again - Lucas is not the fucking problem.

Henderson and Allen arent his competition. Thats pretty obvious when one of them has to fill in for him.
We dont actually need a dm, but maybe a midfielder that has some defensive qualities aswell.

But no, lets just keep adding attacking players and overlook that our midfield gets overrun quite easily and is pretty weak without any real competition for our only defensiv minded midfielder.

 

[localny]

Some people deserve it, if they're happy enough to troll in threads everyday and drag up old arguments to gain a bit of oneupmanship, then they can take it on the chin for acting like a nobhead. What's he offered to this thread other than "I still remember people saying Spearing was a better player". He's always dragging up old threads and can't wait to jump on any positive result as a means of confirming his beliefs , cf his endless Rafa and Aquilani threads. It's needless and tiresome and if he didn't act like such a cunt about it, he wouldn't get treated like one.

I know mark, you aren't the worst at all, by a long distance. Wasn't even thinking of you. You usually precede your comments with reservoirs of patience.

 

[localny]

It was not directed against Mark, obviously.

Aye

 

[Delinquent]

These ones that @Mamma Mia posted yesterday:
http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/midfield-enforcers-ranking-stats.png
http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Table-Key-Midfield.png

And pretty much every comprehensive set of stats I've ever seen.

The only thing we can garner with any certainty from those statistics is that he makes a lot of challenges. Indeed, from what I can gather, Lucas has attempted more tackles than any other player in the Premier League over the last 4 years. Although that doesn't tell you anything about his success rate. Which as I said, is less than remarkable. I'll have to take your word for it on all of the other stats that you've ever seen.

 

[Ryan]

Aaah the old "we need better" argument. A particular favourite of mine.

Up there with the other quasi-tactical fantalk bollocks you hear spouted from time to time:
"We're not getting enough from him"
"All he does is pass sideways"
"Where's the width?"

What does any of that generalised arse mean?

"Why haven't any teams come in for him." Christ almighty. why hasn't anyone come in for dozens of top footballers? Why did Inter Milan let Coutinho go for peanuts? Why did Barca let Yaya Toure go on a free? The value of a player from one club to another can greatly fucking differ you know.

Tell you what. If "we need better" - why don't one of you tell me exactly what it is from him (or from this superlative defensive midfield general you're hilariously alluding to) that he should be doing that he's not? Who are these better players you're referring to? Let's see what you've got.

Define the attributes that he's not bringing, but that someone - in his position, who actually exists - does actually bring. How would that aid the team? How would that add something we don't have? And by taking Lucas out of the side, what would that do to the balance, setup and overall performance of the team? How would we defend better? How would it allow Coutinho et al to perform better?

Do fucking tell me. Cos right now it just reads like some mealy-mouthed cliched bollocks without any substance. "We need better". It's such absurd shite. United need better than Rooney

Any if any one of you says; 'more tackles, goals or assists in your argument' I'll laugh square in your fucking face.

Oh and Dreamy - you're the bellend who claimed (righteously I might add) that "Lucas wouldn't be getting any game time this season" about 2 months ago, so your opinion on this subject, just like every other subject, is worthless.

So no one then.

As I suspected.