Sunderland Post Match

[RedZeppelin III]

There you go. We just have to take Lucas out and drop Busquets in.

And there was me thinking most of your arguments were hysterical fantasies.

How wrong was I.

and where exactly was i saying we could could attract a player of that quality ? I was merely using those players as examples that would most likely add more to our midfield . We may not be able to do it right now but if we aren't looking to better 90% of the team then what is the point.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Aaah the old "we need better" argument. A particular favourite of mine.



Oh and Dreamy - you're the bellend who claimed (righteously I might add) that "Lucas wouldn't be getting any game time this season" about 2 months ago, so your opinion on this subject, just like every other subject, is worthless.

Allen has been injured Lucas has not. He'll be benched soon enough as he's been average at best this season.

If Johnson was fit on the weekend it would have been Henderson and Gerrard.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

While I don't agree with Ryan's gushing assessment of Lucas, there's no way he'll be dropped to accommodate Allen.

 

[Dreambeliever]

And if you want to talk about something that someone else would bring to the team in Lucas's position, then ball retention would be a start.

Away to Villa, away to Swansea, away to Sunderland.
In the 2nd half of every game this season we have conceded possession and not been able to hold onto the ball.
Our defence has little or no out ball to the midfield. And as our DM this is one of Lucas's primary rolls. It was laughable at Villa how sh*t he was at holding onto the ball in the 2nd half.

A player in his position should be able to present for the ball, retain it under pressure, find a teammate and present again.

He simply stops doing this after 45 mins.

 

[Mystic]

No, Ramires is NOW playing further forward but started off as DM - where he was outstanding (and BTW if you watched the Spurs vs Chelsea match at the weekend when Mikel was taken off Ramires dropped back to play DM .... and then Chelsea took control).

You and Mystic need to remember the previous incarnation of Flamini (as I intimated, he's a little past it now) - Lucas is/was not fit to lick his boots.

I remember very well how good Flamini was, and how good he is now (I'm a big fan of his), however what the fuck how good Flamini used to be, and the fact Ramires used to play DM, has to do with Lucas' chances of getting in their team today, I don't know. He'd walk into both teams, no question.

 

[Dreambeliever]

While I don't agree with Ryan's gushing assessment of Lucas, there's no way he'll be dropped to accommodate Allen.

Well Allen hasn't kicked a ball this season so not at the moment. But if we persist with 352 I expect Henderson to take that spot once Johnson is fit unless Lucas improves rapidly in the 2nd half of matches. It's like playing with 10 men.

 

[Best Believe It]

I don't think people should be advocating Wayama as a better player than Lucas. He may be stronger, and he may be a more dominant footballer (I don't necessarily agree with the latter) but he can't hold on to the ball or pass it.

I have a tendancy to veer towards the point of view that Lucas would look a lot better if he had someone playing really well alongside him. He's good at releasing the ball early and getting into good defensive positions but so often at the moment our moves break down within one or two passes of him moving the ball on. If he was the first part of a fluid, ball-retaining passing machine then I think his reputation might go up in people's eyes.

His frequency of picking up bookings annoys me though.

 

[Frogfish]

I remember very well how good Flamini was, and how good he is now (I'm a big fan of his), however what the fuck how good Flamini used to be, and the fact Ramires used to play DM, has to do with Lucas' chances of getting in their team today, I don't know. He'd walk into both teams, no question.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that because IMO there is no way Wenger would buy/play Lucas and Lucas would never find a way into that Chelsea 1st team.

 

[StevieM]

So lets be clear here. Questions

1. What is it we want a DM to bring that Lucas currently doesn't?

2. Which affordable DM's, likely to sign for us, would add more?

I'm in the middle about Lucas.

However, we'd be better focusing on the creative bank in front of him - that's where we really are fucking paupers compared to our rivals.

I think Lucas is a red herring problem.

 

[Mystic]

I'd really like to see Allen and Lucas play alongside each other

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

If you take out Sturridge and Suarez, Moses is the only other player with a goal in the league. I think Gerrard has one assist, and Aspas has one two.

Obviously we can be fairly sure that Coutinho will get off the mark soon enough, and it's obvious to see what he's capable of without the need for stats.

But we need more from Gerrard, Henderson, Aspas, Sterling, Moses and who ever else is on the pitch. It's not Lucas's fault that none of them are providing much going forward.

I'll give Gerrard a pass for now, given that we know he can be brilliant, and Moses given he's brand new. The rest are fairly average and have produced next to nothing for us. We need them to step up, or we need to buy better.

 

[TSD]

In our next midfield addition, I'd be looking for a 'complete' midfielder than merely a DM. For me it isn't about bettering Lucas but also about bettering what's missing in our best midfield pairing, which happens to be Gerrard and Lucas.

I want a midfielder who can effectively play alongside Lucas, providing steel as well as offensive thrust, who can play alongside Gerrard, being the defensive shield while offering some offensive thrust.

 

[Frogfish]

We had the perfect midfielder lined up ... unfortunately he chose Dortmund over us. And he's off to a real flyer there.

 

[Buddha]

Yeah, we missed out there.

We need an alternative/long-term replacement for Gerrard before anything else in my book.

 

[Portly]

I think the whole concept of a defensive midfielder is just a current fashion - like the cattenacio defence and Alf Ramsay's "wingless wonders" in the 1960's.

A solid defence doesn't need a defensive midfielder sitting in front of it to protect it. That's where Benitez went wrong during all those home games when we couldn't beat the Premier League small fry. He had Lucas and Mascherano playing deep when the defence was fine and there wasn't much of a goal threat from the opposition anyway.

I think all midfielders should be there both to defend and attack - as in the days when you had a left half and a right half.

 

[localny]

Looking at Diego Costa, and the Mith lad with Dortmund, I think it's clear we can have faith in our new manager and his scouting staff. They were good shouts, and not all of us had seen or heard of these players. Except maybe our scouting team (RurikBird and Binny).

As for Lucas, I never really got the love or the hate. He's not entitled to either. As for other managers liking him, I assumed it's because he's a good lad, who does what is asked of him (like Henderson). Controversially I do think we can do better, and when I say this, I think of Masher. Who we can sign? I have no clue. I don't have my own scouting network. We need him to be a junior partner in the DM department. Especially next season when we'll be in the CL and we'll need some depth in that position.

 

[Silver Sean]

yes, because managers are infallible, etc. Graham Souness, Paulo Di Canio, Kevin Keegan, I'm loathed to disagree with anything they say about football, after all, they've all played the game at the highest level and managed teams at the highest level.

Is there a stupider point on a football forum?

If there is I'm sure you'll make it.
Heaven forbid that people who, you know, are involved in the game at the highest level day in day out and watch him train and understand what it takes to manage a football team know more than you. As usual this has turned into an argument with no middle ground, lead by the nose as we are in modern society to take the American view - you're either with us or against. Or should that be 'you either think Lucas is amazing, or he is definitely completely awful. Why should there be room for debate?
And by the way, Kevin Keegan, if you actually take facts into account, was a very effective manager most of the time. But of course he failed a couple of timed so he's shit too.

 

[mark1975]

Sean, who said he is completely awful? You're banging on about there being no middle ground, he's either amazing or awful, yet no one has said as much, people have just said, you know, we can maybe do better. Read the posts before you start casting comment about what peoples thoughts are - now who's "Americanising" opinion?

Btw, Keegan was just an example, what I was saying was they're not infallible, are they? It doesn't matter how close or far from the game you get. I'm sure H from Steps, or Pete fucking Waterman isn't as valid an opinion as half this forum when it comes to decent music, despite them (somehow) being in the music business.

It is a stupid point, because it makes debate redundant.

 

[iseered]

Is this the longest post match thread in SCM history?

 

[Hansern]

And it will carry on post Crystal Palace aswell it seems

 

[Ryan]

I dont know what they teach you at the Socceroos Outback football school of wallabys and kangeroos.

Fuck me.

 

[Ryan]

And if you want to talk about something that someone else would bring to the team in Lucas's position, then ball retention would be a start.

Could somebody (Binny) please pull out Lucas's ball retention stats this season so we can put this utterly dismal cunt out of his misery?

 

[Ryan]

Allen has been injured Lucas has not. He'll be benched soon enough as he's been average at best this season.

And again, you will be wrong.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Could somebody (Binny) please pull out Lucas's ball retention stats this season so we can put this utterly dismal cunt out of his misery?

How about we do it 1st half vs 2nd half?

And that was only half my point. The other being that in the 2nd half he stops gving an outball to his back 4 which should be 1 of his primary roles. He stops finding space and looking for the ball and when he does manage to get it has been poor. If you want evidence of that go watch the 2nd half of our games this year.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Fuck me.

Ha ha I was expecting a better comeback than that.

 

[StevieM]

I think the whole concept of a defensive midfielder is just a current fashion - like the cattenacio defence and Alf Ramsay's "wingless wonders" in the 1960's.

A solid defence doesn't need a defensive midfielder sitting in front of it to protect it. That's where Benitez went wrong during all those home games when we couldn't beat the Premier League small fry. He had Lucas and Mascherano playing deep when the defence was fine and there wasn't much of a goal threat from the opposition anyway.

I think all midfielders should be there both to defend and attack - as in the days when you had a left half and a right half.

I'm not so sure I agree here.

I don't think it's a particularly new position despite being made en vogue by Makalele - Dechamps & Dunga. I think what has changed, is the role has increasingly more focus on technical aspects rather than physical attributes - previously this is the sort of roll that would be filled by cloggers designed to break opposition midfields or deep lying midfield playmakers - Vinnie Jones, Terry Hurlock, ray Wilkins, John Jensen, David McCreery etc

The problem or rather the need for shielding midfielder under Rodgers systems if play is that the width is coming from either the full backs or the wingbacks pushing on.

If the central midfield push on, particularly with 4 at the back - then we'll be destroyed on the counter - it'll be like Ardilles Spurs with no one at the back.

To be fair to Benitez - Lucas & Mascherano only became a regular partnership after Alonso left, although the partnership did gave its moments in bug away games when the opposition weren't parking the bus.

 

[RedZeppelin III]

if i remember correctly , we even used to moan that Mascherano and Alonso together at home was too defensive . We're a certified bunch of loopers , we'd give anything for that midfield now .

 

[gene hughes]

That was a great team. If we'd had a different manager we would have won the league.

 

[Dreambeliever]

That was a great team. If we'd had a different manager we would have won the league.

Agreed

 

[StevieM]

if i remember correctly , we even used to moan that Mascherano and Alonso together at home was too defensive . We're a certified bunch of loopers , we'd give anything for that midfield now .

Correct - it was suggested that Mascherano should never be played at home on account of the fact he was useless going forward.