Lucas

[mark1975]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not exactly his number one fan, but he has the right attitude and has always given his all for us and when he has been in top form, he's been fairly essential to us for certain games/periods.

The argument over him lasting the course falls somewhere between a lack of competition and him being a steady performer and a positive influence on the dressing room. Right now he's in really good form and is probably outperforming the captain, in terms of composure and link up play. He's given us much needed experience at a key time.

If rumours are to be believed, he could be off in January. How much of this is down to the manager or the player remains to be seen (it could be both), but it would be a big mistake for Rodgers to lose such a calming influence at such a critical time for us.

What should we give him? A contract extension? Ask him to consider seeing out his contract? Or should we let him go, as a few have said in other threads?

 

[Hansern]

I'd keep him until next summer and then buy a top notch DM. Lucas isn't good enough long term, but is doing a good job at the moment and should be in the starting 11. Doubt we'll get anyone decent in the January window.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

He's got two and a half years left on his contract right? I'd keep him as is until the summer, and see if we can do better then. No need to offer him an extension at this stage.

 

[mark1975]

He's got two and a half years left on his contract right? I'd keep him as is until the summer, and see if we can do better then. No need to offer him an extension at this stage.

I didn't realise, I'm probably getting confused because of Glenjo's contract, I thought he had a limited time left too.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

No point in selling now - he's playing well, confidence growing and protecting the back 4 better than any other player on our team ... If we buy a new DM, that should come in the summer ...

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I didn't realise, I'm probably getting confused because of Glenjo's contract, I thought he had a limited time left too.

Looks like he signed a long term contract last year, so presume he has a bit left.

I'd nearly give him another contract the summer after this, assuming he's still playing well, because I'd be surprised if we actually went and both two DMs. He's relatively cheap, relatively reliable and we know exactly what we're getting. I'd rather we spent money improving our attacking options, and got some goal scorers into the team.

 

[leftpeg]

He'd be one of the first names on the sheet for me right now. There are better DMs out there of course but would they come to us? And if they did, would a marginal improvement in that position make a significant impact on the rest of the team? I don't think so, which is why our transfer priorities should lie elsewhere.

 

[Judge Jules]

I do think a top notch DM would make a big difference to us given the defensive shambles we've been too often this season and, even if we keep Lucas (which I would do), we need more than one. It may be less of a priority than striker or keeper, but not by that much IMHO.

 

[Squiggles]

Lucas has needed competition now ever since Mascherano and Xabi Alonso left. It's a bit of a shambles that we haven't found a decent one since then. I suppose it was meant to be Can, but that doesn't appear to be working out as planned.

 

[keniget]

I do think a top notch DM would make a big difference to us given the defensive shambles we've been too often this season and, even if we keep Lucas (which I would do), we need more than one. It may be less of a priority than striker or keeper, but not by that much IMHO.

It also depends what kind. Someone like Busquets would just look lost I reckon. We're so hopeless that we need a player that will just run around like mad covering for everyone - like Masher (know you're a big fan) - but how many of them are around?


I think the problem is that we're fighting on too many fronts. The keeper is causing widespread panic, the midfield doesn't always offer enough protection, the fullbacks keep changing as do the centre-backs and the coaching / tactics / system are all being called into question.

The whole thing is a mess and we have to be wary of buying a player with that mess in mind if you know what I mean.

 

[Ryan]

I see Mancini's come out publicly saying he wants to take him to Inter in January. I'd be shocked if Brodge let him go now given our paucity of other options in that role.

 

[Wizardry]

Yeah, we've lost 2 from 12 when he's played and 8 from 14 when he hasn't. Statistics can be used however we want but even a novice can see the difference he's made. Tactically I think Rodgers single worst decision this year was dropping Lucas for the mancs. Still believe Rooney wouldn't have scored the first if he'd been there.

I actually think the last three weeks have shown we're not as much of a mess as many thought. The problems were a lack of solidity in midfield, lack of movement, lack of goals, errors in defense and a dodgy keeper.

The dodgy keeper certainly hasn't been resolved so that is certainly an issue.
Errors in defense I think are solvable or, at least, can be minimised with our current players and that it's about to happen. That Arsenal game posed some solutions. More of that in another thread.
The movement has been massively improved - that Arsenal game was our best performance of the season IMO and the fact Arsenal have not been dominated like that since prior to 2003 is a startling fact.
Goals are desperately needed. Sturridge isn't a fix all but he will provide goals, a means of making the domination and movement really count.

Solidity!! As other have said, we know what we get from Lucas and he's a calming influence. He's got nowhere near the all action attributes of Mascher but, I maintain, he's a far better passer with more intelligent, incisive passing. He's not the tackling machine the Argentine is and Mascher bought blood and thunder to tackling in a way that, really, we've only seen from Gerrard at his peak. But I again maintain that Lucas breaks up play just as well. I think a misleading statistic is tackles won and interceptions made. I've lost count of the number of times where Lucas gets a toe in or a foot in and knocks the ball loose. The tackle isn't considered won because he doesn't get possession but the attack is stopped dead. On other occasions he gets the toe in and the ball goes to an opponent - again the interception isn't credited because getting his foot in saw the ball go to another opponent but the attack was still stopped. That's not to say he doesn't win tackles - he's climbing up the charts rapidly as the most successful tackler in the league and has barely played. The same goes for interceptions. But Lucas is like Makelele - he gets the toe in or stops the attack's movement. He's not Makelele's level - don't get me wrong - but he's lot closer than most give him credit for.

There are better DM's out there. Matic is excellent for the Chavs, Sergio for Barca (though I said the same as Keni in another thread - I think he'd be lost here), Song - I'm not 100% convinced on him but he could be an option. As a wider picture, however, the problem of solidity has been improved massively. I get the desire to always improve but we need to learn from the mistakes of players. Suarez had everything here at Anfield and I'd be amazed if he hasn't had a tinge of doubt over the last couple of months about his decision to move. Torres is an obvious one; Rushy is another. Players think the grass is greener somewhere else but a lot of things go into producing consistent, effective performances. We would do well to remember that when we think we've got a nailed on solution to improve the DM position.

 

[Hansern]

Matic is one of theckey players in that Chelsea side for me already. Last night he was insanely good.

Lucas deserves to be in the side these days. But long term we need better. He could obviously stay as a back up.

 

[hmmmmm1]

BR has 5 transfer windows to sign a matic/masher type player, he hasnt.

Probably prefers a ball playing midfield in their rather a guy who is going to break things up.

He probably hoped Allen could do this role.

 

[mom]

I'm not a fan of Lucas at all, but he's playing well at the moment and what we desperately need is some consistency and a solid run. It would be madness to sell Lucas now.

 

[Wizardry]

BR has 5 transfer windows to sign a matic/masher type player, he hasnt.

Probably prefers a ball playing midfield in their rather a guy who is going to break things up.

He probably hoped Allen could do this role.

Don't think it's that simple though the suggestion Rodgers would prefer a ball playing midfielder in there probably isn't that far wrong.

But in his defense, how many good DM's - in the Matic mould - are there running around just now? I can't think of many.

 

[Wiberg]

We win 50% more matches with Lucas starting on the pitch. Says it all?

 

[redhorizon2]

I keep reading he doesn't want to be here.

 

[Modo]

I don't think Brendan rates him, despite his comments in the press.
Every time Lucas plays in the DM position we look better defensively and more organised in midfield, simply because of his composure, positioning, his vision and passing. But every now and then, Brendan tries to be slick and leaves Lucas out of the starting XI, the Man U game being the latest example.
Since Mascherano left, people here have advocated playing Spearing, Adam, Allen, Henderson and Gerrard in his position and more often than not it's been a disaster, especially defensively. It's still a bit early to judge Can, though.

Only a handful of posters here could see what Lucas brought to the team and despite his current record since Gerrard was moved from DM (we haven't lost a single game Lucas has started since then), I still see people posting line ups without Lucas on the pitch. It's mind boggling considering that I'm supposed to be the one who knows nothing about football.

Maybe it's better if he leaves and joins a team where he's more appreciated. I'd honestly be happy for him.

 

[Modo]

I keep reading he doesn't want to be here.

No shit.
It wouldn't surprise me if he's a bit pissed that he didn't make the world cup squad.
I'd also be pissed about being left out of the team in the beginning of the season despite our poor performances.
He's been treated like shit for most of this calender year by our manager, who only brought him back into the fold when he got desperate.

 

[mark1975]

I don't think Brendan rates him, despite his comments in the press.
Every time Lucas plays in the DM position we look better defensively and more organised in midfield, simply because of his composure, positioning, his vision and passing. But every now and then, Brendan tries to be slick and leaves Lucas out of the starting XI, the Man U being the latest example.
Since Mascherano left, people here have advocated playing Spearing, Adam, Allen, Henderson and Gerrard in his position and more often than not it's been a disaster, especially defensively. It's still a bit early to judge Can, though.

Only a handful of posters here could see what Lucas brought to the team and despite his current record since Gerrard was moved from DM (we haven't lost a single game Lucas has started since then), I still see people posting line ups without Lucas on the pitch. It's mind boggling considering that I'm supposed to be the one who knows nothing about football.

Maybe it's better if he leaves and joins a team where he's more appreciated. I'd honestly be happy for him.

Not one of the players you listed are DM's though, so are we better with a DM, or better with Lucas? It's somewhere in between like I said, he's had no competition since Mascherano from a real DM, the rest were used to try to convert us to a different mentality, which worked in many respects, non more so than our winning run last season (and title challenge, which you seem to conveniently forget).

Of course there will be games when he's needed, we need (like every other team) a player in that role in certain games, even more so at the moment because we're so brittle, but that's just the fundamental basics of football, sometimes you need someone to step in and do the dirty work and show their experience and composure. We could say the same of Toure, but not many people would see him as the future of the club either.

 

[Wizardry]

Toure is a lot older though Mark. Also, Lucas was a major part of a very successful first six months last season and played plenty (though less regularly) after that.

I'm not saying he's the clubs future and I remain a strong supporter of Rodgers. But, his refusal to play Lucas earlier in the season as we shipped goals from all angles, was baffling. Then to drop him against the mancs was lunacy.

 

[Modo]

Not one of the players you listed are DM's though, so are we better with a DM, or better with Lucas? It's somewhere in between like I said, he's had no competition since Mascherano from a real DM, the rest were used to try to convert us to a different mentality, which worked in many respects, non more so than our winning run last season (and title challenge, which you seem to conveniently forget).

Of course there will be games when he's needed, we need (like every other team) a player in that role in certain games, even more so at the moment because we're so brittle, but that's just the fundamental basics of football, sometimes you need someone to step in and do the dirty work and show their experience and composure. We could say the same of Toure, but not many people would see him as the future of the club either.

What I don't forget about our title run last season, what others keep ignoring is the fact that Lucas was in the team during the first half of the season.
What I also don't forget is the amount of goals we conceded during the time he was out of the team. But it was more convenient blaming Agger for it, who arguably was our best defender as evident this season.
Also, the main reason why people don't' see Touré having a future at LFC is because he's like 44 years old. Lucas is 27.
It's embarrassing, utterly fucking embarrassing having to resort to a declining player coming in for a £20 million player who replaced a Dane that was shunned for no real reason.

You keep using the argument that none of the midfielders I mentioned are specialised DMs?
Why can't our manager see it then? Why does he persist in playing them in that position?
Why don't you (Lucas detractors) not see it, when they come in and perform poorly?
It actually says a lot about Rodgers. People say he prefers a ball playing midfielder. The fuck is Lucas then? A Momo Sissoko?
Is he just a destroyer?
Granted he's not a runner like Hendo and Allen, but he's definitely a ball playing midfielder.

 

[Modo]

Toure is a lot older though Mark. Also, Lucas was a major part of a very successful first six months last season and played plenty (though less regularly) after that.

I'm not saying he's the clubs future and I remain a strong supporter of Rodgers. But, his refusal to play Lucas earlier in the season as we shipped goals from all angles, was baffling. Then to drop him against the mancs was lunacy.

I should post quicker, you pretty much covered what I was trying to say.

 

[mark1975]

Toure is a lot older though Mark. Also, Lucas was a major part of a very successful first six months last season and played plenty (though less regularly) after that.

I'm not saying he's the clubs future and I remain a strong supporter of Rodgers. But, his refusal to play Lucas earlier in the season as we shipped goals from all angles, was baffling. Then to drop him against the mancs was lunacy.

I agree, totally, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that bringing in experience isn't always a signal that that player is essential to you, it's why you have a squad. You're right, he should have used him earlier, but like I said, he's the only real DM we have so him being the only option for the last few years is both a testament to his staying power AND an indictment of our complete oversight in adding competition to that position.

 

[Wizardry]

I agree, totally, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that bringing in experience isn't always a signal that that player is essential to you, it's why you have a squad. You're right, he should have used him earlier, but like I said, he's the only real DM we have so him being the only option for the last few years is both a testament to his staying power AND an indictment of our complete oversight in adding competition to that position.

Yeah, in terms of using other players I think it's managers trying to force the position to evolve.

Didi once said the DM role would always be important and I agree. That doesn't stop managers trying to change it a little. Alonso was a (relatively successful) effort by Madrid. Wenger has had several unsuccessful efforts; the same with Chelsea really until Matic. You compare the quintessential DM in Claude Makelele with someone like Busquets with someone like Alonso with someone like Mascher. Those who came after Makelele were all slight evolutions on the original as managers looked for what was the most effective.

Makelele really came to prominence when Madrid tried to change the role completely and took about 10 years to recover. I think Rodgers made the same mistake and tried to use others in the role. It took him too long to recognize that the primary function of protection wasn't being met and it was the aspect we most needed.

I reckon Lucas himself had noted it for a while. In the weeks leading up to his return there was an abundance of Twitter comments and pictures of him. Then, about 10 days before he was picked he posted a comment he was committed to the club. It was like he was subtly getting himself in people's minds - the answer is over here.

 

[Modo]

Yeah, in terms of using other players I think it's managers trying to force the position to evolve.

Didi once said the DM role would always be important and I agree. That doesn't stop managers trying to change it a little. Alonso was a (relatively successful) effort by Madrid. Wenger has had several unsuccessful efforts; the same with Chelsea really until Matic. You compare the quintessential DM in Claude Makelele with someone like Busquets with someone like Alonso with someone like Mascher. Those who came after Makelele were all slight evolutions on the original as managers looked for what was the most effective.

Makelele really came to prominence when Madrid tried to change the role completely and took about 10 years to recover. I think Rodgers made the same mistake and tried to use others in the role. It took him too long to recognize that the primary function of protection wasn't being met and it was the aspect we most needed.

I reckon Lucas himself had noted it for a while. In the weeks leading up to his return there was an abundance of Twitter comments and pictures of him. Then, about 10 days before he was picked he posted a comment he was committed to the club. It was like he was subtly getting himself in people's minds - the answer is over here.

But Alonso is so much more than a deep lying playmaker. He can defend as well.
He's not the quickest, he's not the best tackler but his positioning is second to none. He is just world class.

The best game I've ever seen him play for us defensively is probably the away game against Juve in the CL in 2005.
First game back from injury, not completely fit, but was in the right place all the time.
One of the best players I've ever seen in central midfield.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

But Alonso is so much more than a deep lying playmaker. He can defend as well.
He's not the quickest, he's not the best tackler but his positioning is second to none. He is just world class.

The best game I've ever seen him play for us defensively is probably the away game against Juve in the CL in 2005.
First game back from injury, not completely fit, but was in the right place all the time.
One of the best players I've ever seen in central midfield.

Let's make it a Rafa thread! Why did we lose this world class talent who's dominated the midfield for Madrid and Munich since?

 

[Modo]

Let's make it a Rafa thread! Why did we lose this world class talent who's dominated the midfield for Madrid and Munich since?

Let's not

 

[mark1975]