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Virgiling on the vandijkulous

Just as counterpoint to @Mystic's post, here's how many goals Dortmund conceded in 7 seasons under Klopp:

2008-09 – 37 (finished 6th)
2009-10 – 42 (finished 5th)
2010-11 – 22 (Champions)
2011-12 – 25 (Champions)
2012-13 – 42 (runners-up)
2013-14 – 38 (runners-up)
2014-15 – 42 (finished 7th, Klopp resigned)

And first full season at Liverpool – 42 (in 4 more games)

My thoughts on this:
  1. Klopp can put together a title-winning defense. Germany is a high-scoring league and anything under 30 goals conceded per season is Champions caliber. For instance in 2008-09 both the champions Wolfsburg and runners-up Bayern have actually conceded more goals than Klopp's Dortmund, 41 and 42 respectively. The fact that Klopp achieved 25 or less goals per season twice in Germany, shows this was not mere luck.
  2. However, in 5 of the 7 seasons at Dortmund they conceded between 37 and 42 goals, pretty consistent spread. This shows that an element of luck is needed after all – Dortmund were impenetrable in those 2 seasons when everything came together, but various injury crises (and sales of best players year after year) undermined their efforts in other years.
  3. This Dortmund team was built on the basis of the best CB partnership in Germany – Hummels and Subotic who both arrived around the same time as Klopp. Both of them had long injury lay-offs in various seasons and that always hurt the team, particularly after their excellent back-up Felipe Santana started declining.
  4. LFC are a richer club than Borussia and in theory we should be capable of sustaining greater quality in depth at CB. But we need to get that world-class CB partnership first – we won't win anything until we have that in place.
 
  1. LFC are a richer club than Borussia and in theory we should be capable of sustaining greater quality in depth at CB. But we need to get that world-class CB partnership first – we won't win anything until we have that in place.

Maybe that was true before, but since this decade started, it hasn't really been all that crucial to have that to win things.

You can hardly call Man Utd's 12/13 title-winning CB partnership world-class, for example. Ferdinand and Vidic were world class players, but they were already clearly in decline by then, with Ferdinand starting only 26 games and Vidic, 18. In fact, when they conceded 43 goals and won the title that season, they had only the joint-5th best defensive record in the league (tied with... us!).

Similarly, Man City's 13/14 CB partnership was hardly the stuff of legend. Kompany was very good, and they finished with just under a goal a game conceded (37), but even now I struggle to recall who his consistent partner was.

In 15/16, Leicester won with Huth and Morgan as the CB tandem. Again... a functional CB pairing that leaked just under a goal a game, but hardly a world class partnership.

Mind you, I'm not saying a sound defence anchored by a strong CB partnership isn't important, but that having a world class CB partnership as a pre-requisite to win anything isn't that accurate anymore (at least for now) given what we've seen in the last few champions.
 
Name one that has?
Our current vice captain, who was called by the City owner in an attempt to convince him to stay, yet still chose us whilst we were outside of the champions league, incredible considering their was zero chance of a player ever choosing us over City.
 
Disagree. Such a sweeping statement needs only one example - a pretty emphatic one in Milner's case BTW - to disprove it. It also ignores the extent to which van Dijk's nailed his colours to the LFC mast.
 
If Milner is the only example, then I think the point is pretty much proven. It's not a zero percent chance, but it's very low.
Not really, because situations where we and City are competing for the same players are rather rare, I can only think of Milner and Sterling recently, so we're looking at a 50/50 split then? A far cry from the zero percent chance bullshit DB was spouting.
 
Irrespective of comparsions to Wanyama, hasn't Romeu been highly praised for his performances last season?
He's been praised for quite a few of his performances last season but he will never be as good a DM'er as Wanyama which could IMO explain why Saints defence is more porous since Wanyama's exit.
 
A 29 year old, already playing for them, leaving on a free transfer is not the same
Disagree. Such a sweeping statement needs only one example - a pretty emphatic one in Milner's case BTW - to disprove it. It also ignores the extent to which van Dijk's nailed his colours to the LFC mast.

A 29 year old, already playing for them, leaving on a free transfer is not the same thing. If we sign VDV, then it can be said that we can compete with City, at the minute it's just rumours.
 
I may have missed the original point, but if you honestly think any top player is more or equally likely to join us compared to City, then you're wrong. Players give a crap about money and winning, they're more likely to offer both.
 
If that's what you think I'm/we're saying, you have indeed missed the point. Pat said there was no chance any player would prefer to come to us. What we've been doing is disagreeing with the extreme nature of that statement and saying there's evidence that it goes too far. Nobody's saying players in general would be more likely to join us.
 
Bruno Martins Indi

Age 25. One season of Premier League football under his belt. No major injury concerns. Europa League experience, Champions League knockout stage experience, World Cup experience in a team that finiahed 3rd. 34 caps for the Netherlands.

Stoke are paying £13.4m

Van Dijk
Age 26. One and a half Premiership seasons. Coming off a nasty foot injury that has kept him out of action since January. Group stage CL experience. Europa league experience. 12 international caps, played in the team thay failed to qualify for the Euros.

Price - 60-75m

I just don't see what justifies those relative prices
 
Indi is never going to be anything other than a half decent mid table CB. I don't agree with the quoted price of VD but it's obvious that his ceiling is fucking massive in comparison (as long as he has fully recovered).
 
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Bruno Martins Indi

Age 25. One season of Premier League football under his belt. No major injury concerns. Europa League experience, Champions League knockout stage experience, World Cup experience in a team that finiahed 3rd. 34 caps for the Netherlands.

Stoke are paying £13.4m

Van Dijk
Age 26. One and a half Premiership seasons. Coming off a nasty foot injury that has kept him out of action since January. Group stage CL experience. Europa league experience. 12 international caps, played in the team thay failed to qualify for the Euros.

Price - 60-75m

I just don't see what justifies those relative prices
one is considered to be the best cb in the league and the other is signing for stoke ?
 
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