Next England manager

[gkmacca]

I'm not sure much of it is fixable. Certainly the support seems fecked. The Premier League has so intensified the tribalism of football that it's no longer possible for many fans of the bigger clubs to suddenly embrace players they've been encouraged to hate throughout a season. I genuinely don't get why hacks can't even acknowledge this when they're moaning about the supporters.

The bulk of the actual support, as a result, is dominated by fans of lower league clubs, or fans of no clubs at all, who get a sugar rush of excitement when England play, but don't really 'get' the game beyond what they see on the tactics screen every Monday night on Sky. So they start booing and weeping as soon as the first corner is conceded.

Then you have Premier League where it's unbelievably hard for young English talent to break through. I heard some pundit rubbish this the other day, claiming f you're good enough you'll make it. That isn't true. If you look at the academies, it's promising young Spanish, French and other foreign talents who aren't getting much of a chance, along with English talents. If a big club needs a new first teamer, it will usually buy a tried and tested player, not trust a youth player who has only played in the piss-poor under 18 or 221 leagues. Clubs in other countries test their young talents in their B leagues or equivalents, so some DO come through. Look at us - Canos is probably being sold, even though he's done pretty much all he can do in the reserves and on loan.

So there's poor support, made worse by a boneheaded sports media and a proportion of boorish drunks and hooligans who come along for the ride and add to the general air of neuroticism, and a shrinking pool of talent.

What manager can respond to this? Either a damage limitation expert, or a forward thinking optimist with a hell of a lot of luck.

 

[jexykrodic]

Despite having wanted England to win I've got to be honest and admit that, when Iceland's second goal went in, all I found I could do was laugh.

I must admit to a giggle myself. It also didn't come as any surprise.

 

[StevieM]

Despite having wanted England to win I've got to be honest and admit that, when Iceland's second goal went in, all I found I could do was laugh.

You just have to sometimes.

I sometimes liken it to the amusement I get every time Man Utd lose.

 

[gkmacca]

A friend of mine (female, not a sport fan) once said to me that perhaps there's a basic bolshiness in the English make-up which resists attempts to conscript it, such as an international manager might need to make to foster a team spirit. It's an interesting idea but, if it's true, no change of manager will help.

I'd say the opposite. A more bolshy group would rebel and say how they wanted to play. Actually, when that's happened, albeit rarely, it's led to positive changes, instead of the chaos that the Netherlands camp tend to create. Certainly in 1990 it was the character of the senior pros who persuaded Robson to change, no matter what the subsequent St Bobby myth making claimed to the contrary.

The problem is that it's been a while since the team had any strong minded senior pros. Not since Adams and (brrr!) Terry, I guess. Rooney looks as though he'll accept anything so long as he stays captain. Hart is like some Monty Python/Dad's Army thick and over-eager yes sir/no sir stripe licker. I can't imagine that wimp Smalling standing up to anyone, and Cahill looks too stupid to be aware of anything that's happening. They're a very meek team.

 

[manwithnoname]

I must admit to a giggle myself. It also didn't come as any surprise.

I was putting up a garden table set and missed the first 20 minutes.

I was watching for 10 minutes slightly surprised at the scoreline, thinking there must have been some fluke goal or horrible error, before I realised it was actually 2-1 to Iceland, not England. I think that's called cognitive dissonance.

 

[Kay Age El]

I'm not sure much of it is fixable. Certainly the support seems fecked. The Premier League has so intensified the tribalism of football that it's no longer possible for many fans of the bigger clubs to suddenly embrace players they've been encouraged to hate throughout a season. I genuinely don't get why hacks can't even acknowledge this when they're moaning about the supporters.

The bulk of the actual support, as a result, is dominated by fans of lower league clubs, or fans of no clubs at all, who get a sugar rush of excitement when England play, but don't really 'get' the game beyond what they see on the tactics screen every Monday night on Sky. So they start booing and weeping as soon as the first corner is conceded.

Then you have Premier League where it's unbelievably hard for young English talent to break through. I heard some pundit rubbish this the other day, claiming f you're good enough you'll make it. That isn't true. If you look at the academies, it's promising young Spanish, French and other foreign talents who aren't getting much of a chance, along with English talents. If a big club needs a new first teamer, it will usually buy a tried and tested player, not trust a youth player who has only played in the piss-poor under 18 or 221 leagues. Clubs in other countries test their young talents in their B leagues or equivalents, so some DO come through. Look at us - Canos is probably being sold, even though he's done pretty much all he can do in the reserves and on loan.

So there's poor support, made worse by a boneheaded sports media and a proportion of boorish drunks and hooligans who come along for the ride and add to the general air of neuroticism, and a shrinking pool of talent.

What manager can respond to this? Either a damage limitation expert, or a forward thinking optimist with a hell of a lot of luck.

Very good post mate.

It is a very, very big task, and maybe it's a Gordian Knot of some sort without any viable, effective solutions to it at all because of the environment surrounding football in England with so much pressure from TV, medias, mega rich owners, fans, etc. - and as you say a change of manager/staff alone will only do so much. It has to start with the FA and then in the clubs all the way down when the players are still kids and how they 'think' football and develop home grown talents.

Germany has done it, they've really changed to the better, and though I do acknowledge the vast differences between the two countries in culture, at least they are also a very large country, with a top league whom also suffered for some time at Int level and became truly predictable and boring.

 

[jexykrodic]

Yes. And a game plan of how to actually setup your team, formation etc. Implement this from the top all the way down to the children.

You also need the right inspired personal, with ideas not identical to whatever old man FA are considering to appoint next from within their own lines.

Shit Kay Age, as if we didn't have enough to sort out, you've just added to the (wish) list.

On the question of mentality, we seem to be doing better in Athletics, Cycling, Rugby, Cricket etc and in other areas of life such as Arts, Science, even this world wide web thingy being a British construct. You'd think we'd be a bit better at Footy, perhaps we should ask some more successful people, outside of the game, as to how to foster a better mentality?

 

[Kay Age El]

Shit Kay Age, as if we didn't have enough to sort out, you've just added to the (wish) list.

On the question of mentality, we seem to be doing better in Athletics, Cycling, Rugby, Cricket etc and in other areas of life such as Arts, Science, even this world wide web thingy being a British construct. You'd think we'd be a bit better at Footy, perhaps we should ask some more successful people, outside of the game, as to how to foster a better mentality?

That is an awesome idea really, a lot of other countries do this with great success.

Let Froome learn your footballers a bit about not letting expectations and what others does or doesn't think about you affect the way you perform. Concentrate solely on your own mountain and never be afraid to fail. Or something like that.

And maybe they should all do EPO. I am quite sure it would've enhanced Woy's performance at least.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

Well, just much, much, much lower expectations. Norn Ireland are going back to have a triumphant open top bus parade for going out at the same stage as England. And they'll probably whoop and cheer at England going out at the same stage as them. Down by the ankles of ambition, that's where the craic is!

England have superior individual players, with a far bigger budget for facilities, preparation and coaching staff. Falling at the same hurdle as Ireland or Northern Ireland should be failure for England.

 

[gkmacca]

It's failure for any country, mate. Don't go in for it if you're just there for a pat on the head.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

It's failure for any country, mate. Don't go in for it if you're just there for a pat on the head.

Expectations are different for the reasons I previously outlined. Teams aren't there for a "pat on the head", but they're there to give it everything to get as far as they can. Did England do that? I'm not sure they did. There was fuck all fight or belief in that team. Failure for any country? Would anybody call Iceland a failure if France beat them in the quarters?

 

[gkmacca]

Would anybody call Iceland a failure if France beat them in the quarters?

First is first, second is nowhere. Ask little Leicester. We all create the stories that suit us, if we're smart or selfish enough, but that's another matter. Celebrating not winning, that's the hard reality. If someone wants to embrace that weird delusion, great, so long as they don't poke their snouts into other people's failures. Stay completely in that world or stay out of it, don't pivot in and out when it suits you.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

First is first, second is nowhere. Ask little Leicester. We all create the stories that suit us, if we're smart or selfish enough, but that's another matter. Celebrating not winning, that's the hard reality. If someone wants to embrace that weird delusion, great, so long as they don't poke their snouts into other people's failures. Stay completely in that world or stay out of it, don't pivot in and out when it suits you.

That's complete bullshit. What is achievement for some is not achievement for others. It's not "celebrating" to be pleased with how your team progressed in comparison to their quality and resources. I remember a lot of England fans being pretty satisfied after Euro 96 given they had a good tournament, but ultimately came up slightly short. A lot of people are not poking their snouts in either. People are entitled to analyse what happened to England last night.

 

[gkmacca]

That's complete bullshit. What is achievement for some is not achievement for others. It's not "celebrating" to be pleased with how your team progressed in comparison to their quality and resources. I remember a lot of England fans being pretty satisfied after Euro 96 given they had a good tournament, but ultimately came up slightly short. A lot of people are not poking their snouts in either. People are entitled to analyse what happened to England last night.

Analysis is different from petty-minded crowing about it, whether it's England losing or Ireland losing or anyone else. And if you want to celebrate where you get on a sliding scale of failure, great, if it's just that then you're arguing at cross purposes with me. But when people look over fences and sneer at others, whoever they are, it's pretty sad, like the Welsh yesterday. Just concentrate on your own club/country, get what you want out of it, or regret what you didn't get, but stay in that view. And analyse whatever else you like. I'm not using 'you' to mean you, by the way.

 

[Hansern]

I think you'd have to look to getting a foreign manager in to shake things up a bit and get some ideas and perspective.
That and the fact that there arent any good English coaches around, bar the promising Howe.

 

[gkmacca]

I think you'd have to look to getting a foreign manager in to shake things up a bit and get some ideas and perspective.
That and the fact that there arent any good English coaches around, bar the promising Howe.

Probably, but who is there? AVB (shudder)? Ireland is lucky to have Keane in there as assistant, because he has no time at all for all of this rationalising of defeats and finding solace in bits and pieces. He demands the best and won't tolerate excuses. That's great. If England had at least one man on the staff who had that mentality they might actually look a bit better than the shambolic bunch of dullards they currently seem. It's always talk, talk, talk, then fall flat on your face. It's a professional game, act like you're a proper professional. Look at Italy - let's face it, it's not even a proper country, there is plenty of bolshiness in the psyche(s), it has top club sides that can fall apart under pressure away from home in Europe - we've all seen instances - but under a good national manager, my god you've got a proper team. I'm not sure why England fails to match them, given what you see at league level. Is there a manager who'll be able to galvanise them? I can't think of one.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

Analysis is different from petty-minded crowing about it, whether it's England losing or Ireland losing or anyone else. And if you want to celebrate where you get on a sliding scale of failure, great, if it's just that then you're arguing at cross purposes with me. But when people look over fences and sneer at others, whoever they are, it's pretty sad, like the Welsh yesterday. Just concentrate on your own club/country, get what you want out of it, or regret what you didn't get, but stay in that view. And analyse whatever else you like. I'm not using 'you' to mean you, by the way.

I don't think people are "celebrating" where they are on the sliding scale of failure. I was devastated after the game on Sunday (as I'm sure Norther Ireland fans were on Saturday), while still respecting the efforts put in by the team against a vastly superior opposition.

 

[Best Believe It]

I think it's difficult to look at the manager and the team in complete isolation because of the systemic problems with the FA, but I did like this comment I saw on the Granuiad earlier on:

skunkrider
28 June 2016 11:17am
A German perspective:
The problem with England is in the complete lack of organization and tactics.

It is not with the players, and it is not a lack of skill either.

Having to listen to English pundits saying things like 'the attitude wasn't right', 'their heart wasn't in it' and such mental diarrhea, the cringe is almost unbearable.

It's as if they think the English players just never want to play good. Bollocks.

England need a coach (whether foreign or not) who understands tactics, and who picks players to make a complete team, not to cater to what the Press want.

Please forgive a tiny jibe of mine: Joe Hart was already a clown in 2014 - he is a shitty old school goalkeeper who moves like a puppet on strings, and England need to get rid of him. The sooner the better.

 

[Kay Age El]

I think it's difficult to look at the manager and the team in complete isolation because of the systemic problems with the FA, but I did like this comment I saw on the Granuiad earlier on:

I don't disagree with most of that but I just don't think you can overlook the fact their is a clear tendency that English players seems to buckle under pressure/expectations. For instance it was hardly due to a lack of plan or tactic that Rooney suddenly looked like a happy amateur incapable of hitting a pass to a team mate or making two touches without losing the ball yesterday.

 

[cloggypop]

I think you'd have to look to getting a foreign manager in to shake things up a bit and get some ideas and perspective.
That and the fact that there arent any good English coaches around, bar the promising Howe.

That's not really going with the current erm is there an English word for zeitgeist?

 

[jexykrodic]

That's complete bullshit. What is achievement for some is not achievement for others. It's not "celebrating" to be pleased with how your team progressed in comparison to their quality and resources. I remember a lot of England fans being pretty satisfied after Euro 96 given they had a good tournament, but ultimately came up slightly short. A lot of people are not poking their snouts in either. People are entitled to analyse what happened to England last night.

Nah he's just arrowing in on the purpose of competition, if you take comfort in being a 'plucky' loser then all you really have to do is delete the word 'plucky' to get to the nub. Losing is just plain losing whether it's put down to population, talent, money, training, hard luck, poor management etc etc

It's like celebrating Liverpool's efforts in a losing final, pointless and soon forgotten.

 

[Best Believe It]

I don't disagree with most of that but I just don't think you can overlook the fact their is a clear tendency that English players seems to buckle under pressure/expectations. For instance it was hardly due to a lack of plan or tactic that Rooney suddenly looked like a happy amateur incapable of hitting a pass to a team mate or making two touches without losing the ball yesterday.

Oh yeah, there's definitely a mentality problem but I wonder whether that stems from not having a clear enough understanding of what they're supposed to do. If they get sent out with any instructions, and those instructions don't bear fruit, they're lost little lambs, with no ingenuity.

That said, Hodgson's squad seems to have been picked without any appreciation that we might have to break down the opposition. Sterling and Lallana were the only two players who could be classed as wingers, and one of them is currently shit and neither can score or assist well enough. If the pool of players for that position is that thin on the ground, he shouldn't have bothered trying to shoehorn others into that role and instead should have gone with a different set up and picked a midfield of players who can make intelligent runs. If we have them.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

Nah he's just arrowing in on the purpose of competition, if you take comfort in being a 'plucky' loser then all you really have to do is delete the word 'plucky' to get to the nub. Losing is just plain losing whether it's put down to population, talent, money, training, hard luck, poor management etc etc

It's like celebrating Liverpool's efforts in a losing final, pointless and soon forgotten.

You're missing the point and none of you guys were calling other teams eliminated losers before England got knocked out.

 

[mark1975]

I think it's difficult to look at the manager and the team in complete isolation because of the systemic problems with the FA, but I did like this comment I saw on the Granuiad earlier on:

Can't argue with any of that, they're bang on.

 

[jexykrodic]

You're missing the point and none of you guys were calling other teams eliminated losers before England got knocked out.

No we tend not to concentrate on other peoples failures. We have enough of our own.

 

[gkmacca]

I don't think people are "celebrating" where they are on the sliding scale of failure. I was devastated after the game on Sunday (as I'm sure Norther Ireland fans were on Saturday), while still respecting the efforts put in by the team against a vastly superior opposition.

So why are you arguing with me? I've said that isn't a problem for me. You seem to identify with someone you're not, and then taking umbrage at being thought of as that person. As for 'people' well, don't include yourself in those I'm discussing. I don't get what you think you're arguing against, and frankly it's getting a bit of a bore trying to figure it out.

I'm only referring to those who go into a competition with zero pressure on them, they do slightly better than expected, go out, and then sneer at the bigger teams with more expections who go out. What's the point of that? It's like Eddie the Eagle staying around to blow raspberries at the bronze medal favourite who came 10th. And as I've said for out the tenth time, if those who embrace their mediocrity want to celebrate it, great, none of my business. But personally I don't get any pleasure from it, whether it's plucky Wimbledon qualifiers or the bloke in the chicken suit who finishes the marathon.

 

[davud graham]

In international football you can only pick the players who are eligible to play but most England Managers of the last 40 years have picked the players before the system of play. Picking the 11 best available players doesn't always work. You have to pick players the suit the system you want to play and who compliment each other otherwise it will look chaotic and directionless like it did last night and for the previous 3 games of the tournament.
For example he expected the full backs to provide the width in his system and to put in crosses that the strikers would profit from, the only thing he forgot to do want to pick full backs who could cross effectively.
Walker and Rose continually got into good positions to cross in this tournament but the quality of their crosses were abysmal.
Then both centre halves he picked were both very average with their passing and on the ball so you would think that necessitated someone in the centre of the park who was adept at passing but Roy picked Dier and Rooney. A converted centre half and a converted striker who between them played very few telling passes throughout the tournament and last night played more passes to the opposition they they did to team mates.
I could go on but I'm starting to bore myself now. Fuck Roy, Fuck the FA and Fuck Iceland for playing sensibly and competently which is nearly always enough to knock England out.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Moyes is available and would probably take it.

 

[manwithnoname]

Moyes is available and would probably take it.

That would surely be beyond the pale, even for the FA.

Actually, no it wouldn't.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

So why are you arguing with me? I've said that isn't a problem for me. You seem to identify with someone you're not, and then taking umbrage at being thought of as that person. As for 'people' well, don't include yourself in those I'm discussing. I don't get what you think you're arguing against, and frankly it's getting a bit of a bore trying to figure it out.

I'm only referring to those who go into a competition with zero pressure on them, they do slightly better than expected, go out, and then sneer at the bigger teams with more expections who go out. What's the point of that? It's like Eddie the Eagle staying around to blow raspberries at the bronze medal favourite who came 10th. And as I've said for out the tenth time, if those who embrace their mediocrity want to celebrate it, great, none of my business. But personally I don't get any pleasure from it, whether it's plucky Wimbledon qualifiers or the bloke in the chicken suit who finishes the marathon.

You're phrasing it to suit your agenda. I never said anything about embracing mediocrity. I mentioned having respect for the efforts of some very limited players, while being disappointed they got eliminated. Some teams have better players and more money than others and are therefore should do better. As far ignoring other teams, maybe you could just you know ignore those fans who "sneer" at England? I'm as bored with you as you seem to be with me in instance, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.