What's the point of Lucas?
- Thread starter Rosco
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If we have a DM that can allow all our other players to attack without worrying too much about defending, we'll be doing pretty well. Lucas does that, he's maybe not as effective as he has been in the past, but I suspect he'll be excellent again next season.
I remain unconvinced. Ultimately, only a small amount of his time with us have shown him to be above average. More often than not he's below.
I think that's rubbish. He does a job that's not as easy to see. He did a good job against Everton for example, above average.
He kept Fellaini at bay, so when he man marks he does well, but he gives away a lot of stupid free kicks and his passing is erratic, unless it's backwards.
I'd rather we strengthened attack before replacing him, but I believe long term we NEED someone to replace him.
Yeah, we were shit because we didn't have 'another' defensive midfielder.
Maybe it's just me, but I think a lot of the free kicks he gives away are on purpose, he does it if he isn't going to win the ball, and he needs to stop the flow of play as we're outnumbered or they have momentum. I don't think he gives away half as many "stupid free kicks" as some people say.
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. But yes, sometimes the wise thing to do is to give away a free kick.
Well by that logic everyone of our players, in every position under the 4 said managers are shit, no?
Hmmmmm indeed
I have no idea how you've ascertained that notion
It's one thing giving away a cynical free kick every now and then, and "taking a yellow for the team", but more often than not with lucas, it's just he's criminally the wrong side of a player
I'm beginning to doubt him again I have to say. Which means I've doubted him for about 80% of the time he's been with us. he's not a kid anymore and he's been here for years. I think this may well be it. At a stretch I would give him next season but sign someone else in the summer to give him competition and maybe replace him long term. It's not that complicated.
I don't think you got what I meant. It's not about a player breaking through and Lucas taking them down, it's about stopping their momentum, he has a lot of ground to cover, and people to cover for, it's inevitable that he won't always be in the right position to make a tackle.
And when he's not, he needs to slow down the opposition, these aren't cynical tackles(as you can see by his decreasing yellow card count every season), just tackles that stop their flow and frustrate the opposition(and some of our fans). We've conceded very few goals from free kicks this season(four or five?), so conceding those free kicks is the right thing to do.
Lucas was not the only player that was picked when we were led to sixth and seventh. There were 11 names on the team sheet. Unless he is saying it is solely Lucas' fault we finished sixth and seventh.
Not necessarily.
But there is a core that's been there throughout - Reina, carra, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Agger, Gerrard for example.
We've tried to build around them and never gotten anywhere so I would argue we shouldn't be hanging onto them for dear life when no matter who we place around them we finish seventh.
That's a pretty skewed view though, it doesn't necessarily reflect on all of them, only an idiot would say the likes of Gerrard, Carra and Reina couldn't have won the title, it's BECAUSE they've been surrounded by mediocrity more often than not that's the issue, not the reverse. Johnson can go though, and it looks like Skrtel is too.
Mark the problem is people think they know what a good player is and what a good team is. The reality is everyone has preferences and nobody really understands what is required to win the league. (Including me)
If something hasn't come close to working four years in a row no matter what you put in place around them, it's fair to say that it's not a winning combination so if you put favouritism aside you'd cut ties. It might be wrong to get rid of them all, but it's definitely not right to keep them all.
Gerrard is the only one I'd keep, and it's really only for sentimental reasons.
If something hasn't come close to working four years in a row no matter what you put in place around them, it's fair to say that it's not a winning combination so if you put favouritism aside you'd cut ties. It might be wrong to get rid of them all, but it's definitely not right to keep them all.
Gerrard is the only one I'd keep, and it's really only for sentimental reasons.
As you allude to Ross, we wouldn't keep nor get rid of them all. Therefore a number of discussions needs to be had as to which ones we do keep of which this is one of.
If you're arguing for selling any player in a particular group if a certain offer is met, that is something else because then you're weighing up other criteria as well such as how we replace the player, do we replace like for like or go a different direction, how does it affect the group, general risk etc. And you probably need quite a fluid plan in place before the start of the window.
If you're arguing for selling any player in a particular group if a certain offer is met, that is something else because then you're weighing up other criteria as well such as how we replace the player, do we replace like for like or go a different direction, how does it affect the group, general risk etc. And you probably need quite a fluid plan in place before the start of the window.
I think we've spent poorly, and I think we've had some average players that people have rated alot higher than the actual reality of it all, we've probably all been guilty of that. But I think the players listed, mostly, are the type that could win the league in the right squad. Johnson and possibly Skrtel and Agger are typical of the type of player that are overhyped and better in theory than in longterm reality, that's been proven of late and we're on the wrong end of it because we've invested so much indulgence and money in them - they're now at that crucial age where they "should" be at their best, but for a myriad of reasons they aren't. I still think the two centre backs in the right squad could do it, but they're like the second tier bracket of player as opposed to what the likes of Hyypia was. They should be supplementing that standard of player, instead we're looking to them to "become" that player. There's been a real shortage of top quality defensive players in the last couple of seasons and the league has gone alot more open as a result, no one is particularly mean at the back and everyone, to some degree, is capable of being picked off.
Back to the point though, I think there's alot of mediocrity and wasted money that needs pointing at, over criticising us rewarding those listed players with more money and faith, most we're at crucial ages where they could easily have gone the other way and triumphed, we've still had a reasonable return from most of them, Skrtel and Johnson are the biggest disappointments out of them all.
I do get your point about wasted contracts, but we've spent heavily in recent years, enough (IMO) to have challenged more consistently.
As soon as we sign a good midfielder to play his position, you'll all realise how shit he actually is/was. 10 years from now, you can start a thread on here called 'Hey, remember Lucas' and the guffaws will be heard all the way to Brazil.
I do agree with Rosco that, if you've got a load of players that get you to 7th every year, then you have to assume that is their level. We aren't unlucky, we aren't underachieving, we finish 7th every year because there are always 6 teams better than us. Because they have better players.
I don't think we should engage in a fire sale but, realistically, we should listen to offers for virtually anyone, where that money is going to be used to strengthen the unit as a whole e.g. turning down 20-odd million for Agger is insane.
Obviously though, don't factor in the bag of pork scratchings and rolled up blu-tack ball that selling Lucas would generate.
I do agree with Rosco that, if you've got a load of players that get you to 7th every year, then you have to assume that is their level. We aren't unlucky, we aren't underachieving, we finish 7th every year because there are always 6 teams better than us. Because they have better players.
I don't think we should engage in a fire sale but, realistically, we should listen to offers for virtually anyone, where that money is going to be used to strengthen the unit as a whole e.g. turning down 20-odd million for Agger is insane.
Obviously though, don't factor in the bag of pork scratchings and rolled up blu-tack ball that selling Lucas would generate.
Sell him, he's postion needs better
It's not as simple as saying "everyone should be for sale", if that were the case we'd look like a selling club - regardless of what you may think our image already is in that respect.
I do agree that we should have our old ethic of always striving to improve, whereby, if there is a player out there who's better than what we have and available at the right price, we should do our upmost to bring him here. That's fine in principle. I do think people are largely missing the point and looking for something that's less of a factor. We've squandered millions on crap and never really built on the basis of a good squad.
We'd look like a selling club ?
Who cares ? I've never understood the fascination with image, particularly when we're shit.
That's preferable to looking like a mid table one. Or actually being one.
Nobody is missing the point Mark, we disagree that it's a good squad.
Who cares ? I've never understood the fascination with image, particularly when we're shit.
That's preferable to looking like a mid table one. Or actually being one.
Nobody is missing the point Mark, we disagree that it's a good squad.
Because people can't handle the truth
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