Lucas

[Best Believe It]

I'm more concerned about left back, to be honest. At least our most senior defensive midfielder can play in that position. Neither of our senior left backs are particularly good at playing left back. Lucas is a competent defensive midfielder. Sure, I'd like a better one, but then I'd like better centre backs, and a better goalkeeper too.

 

[Wiberg]

we'd put Lucas on at half time against Palace, then maybe things would have been different. We gambled and blew it, we needed goals and were 3-0 up and flying, so I wouldn't blame us for being bold and thinking we co

The "Lucas" issue only became an issue because of the manner of the goals we conceded against Chelsea and Palace, for the time leading up to that we were in great form and were overpowering most teams with quick, decisive play. So in essence, you saying if we'd played him we'd have won the league isn't necessarily true. If we'd played him would we have been as quick playing the ball out from those deep positions on the break? Would we have had the assists and goals that Gerrard contributed? Hindsight is great and all, but we were one of the form teams and one of the most exciting watches in Europe without him. The biggest damage our title challenge took was the injury to Henderson. *IF* we'd put Lucas on at half time against Palace, then maybe things would have been different. We gambled and blew it, we needed goals and were 3-0 up and flying, so I wouldn't blame us for being bold and thinking we could score more.

Let's not act like Lucas was the saviour of that campaign that we just didn't see, we were fucking AWESOME in the run in, aside from two games. The need for Lucas in the overall picture of that spell of form, was irrelevant.

I'm not saying that Lucas is an awesome footballer. Im saying that we played that streak without a DM and because of an absolutely awesome offense we crushed opponents like we did in the 80's. I think we would have been better off with Lucas in that streak. Better balance. Lucas only played 20 games in that campaign. The first games without Suarez and forward until he usual November injury.

The 11 penalties could probably have been scored by others? When you look at the number of free-kicks and corners taken by the Captain it really isn't that impressive when it comes to assists and goals. Far from it. Not to say that he didn't have his moments but he was far from what he used to be at that point playing a position he couldn't handle. So we played gun slinging Indianan football with no HM/DM.

I don't think on any level that it would have hurt us to have Lucas in there. Quite the opposite. He would have handed over the ball to Hendo, Coutinho or Sterling and we would have been moving forward with the same pace. But of course we had to play Gerrard. No question.

My general point is that the team of 13/14 lacked balance. We were a disaster on our own final third off the ball. I think we can agree on that much??

 

[Wiberg]

You got owned again in this thread so maybe it's time to try a new sport maybe.
You were bragging about drinking a 50 quid bottle of wine on your holidays in some look at me destination a few weeks back.
So maybe that's your thing.

I got owned? What world do you live in? I blamed the poor season last year partly on the fact that we had to play Gerrard. That's true. Are you trying to tell people that I blamed Gerrard for the Arsenal defeat even though he wasn't playing? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Halmeister]

Okay, I'll bite... How would we have been better off in that streak? Would we have got 6 points for a win if Lucas was playing? We would have had the same number of points even if we had won those games with Lucas - which is far from a certainty.

Were you ever a DJ in Southport by any chance?

 

[Leo]

I got owned? What world do you live in? I blamed the poor season last year partly on the fact that we had to play Gerrard. That's true. Are you trying to tell people that I blamed Gerrard for the Arsenal defeat even though he wasn't playing? Is that what you are saying?

Lazor... that wasted chance...he didn't even take the shot.

We knew we had little here.

This is on Gerrard. Captain fantastic.

Wiberg, Apr 4, 2015

 

[ILD]

@Wiberg, serious question, why do you 'dislike' Gerrard so much?

What is the underlying factor or reason that motivates you to speak negatively about him so often?

I didn't want Gerrard to play DM for us either but it doesn't detract from the fact he's been arguably the clubs best ever player and my personal favourite. I get the feeling you have some sort of agenda against him and I'm just curious as to how that began or why it exists.

 

[Wiberg]

@Wiberg, serious question, why do you 'dislike' Gerrard so much?

What is the underlying factor or reason that motivates you to speak negatively about him so often?

I didn't want Gerrard to play DM for us either but it doesn't detract from the fact he's been arguably the clubs best ever player and my personal favourite. I get the feeling you have some sort of agenda against him and I'm just curious as to how that began or why it exists.

I don't dislike him at all. I think, as a club, we got stuck in the past and on some level we ended up playing the legend instead of the player. The last 5 years was soso at best. I would have preferred something closer to the way Chelsea handled Lampard. Not necessarily as cold or as Russian but it was certainly better for Chelsea and imho it would have served us better as well.

I think he is grossly overrated in terms of what he brought us and England for that matter the last 5 years.

Of course the club was in dire straits in 2008 to 2010ish so it's understandable how it all played out but I also think that it went too far. The years where he couldn't cut it as an attacking midfielder. Then was placed in center where he couldn't cut it either. It wasn't helped by the fact that it was mandatory reading to sit on forays like this reading about how fantastic he was.

Other than that I tried to balance and express my views in my post to Mark.

I'm sorry if you disagree with these views. It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

 

[Woland]

The season before last he was the second best player in the league behind Suarez, according to Opta.

Last season he went to shit, and it was mostly because of stuff going on off the pitch. You can't say he's been no good for years, it simply isn't true.

 

[Wiberg]

Okay, I'll bite... How would we have been better off in that streak? Would we have got 6 points for a win if Lucas was playing? We would have had the same number of points even if we had won those games with Lucas - which is far from a certainty.

Were you ever a DJ in Southport by any chance?

I have no interest, or time for that matter, for some sort of condescending dialogue - in reference to your DJ remark. Just because Leo has a hard-on for me you don't need to join the party. I'm not here to please anybody - nor am I here to make enemies.

Had Sterling not been judged offside when he was 4 meters on-side against City and so on. It's not about that. I tried to convey me views to Mark and Dave. Sorry if it doesn't sit well with you or makes sense.

 

[Leo]

No one has a hard one.
People are just pointing out what a clueless mong you are.

 

[Wiberg]

The season before last he was the second best player in the league behind Suarez, according to Opta.

Last season he went to shit, and it was mostly because of stuff going on off the pitch. You can't say he's been no good for years, it simply isn't true.

I'm not saying he was "no good". Im saying that he wasn't the player he was in 05/06/09. There is a difference? Yet he remained as a savior and an Icon. Even though he didn't have those powers anymore.

According to OPTA Lucas was close to our best player last season with an 91% win/Draw record. You agree with that? I don't

It's not so much about OPTA stats. Gerrard on the ball was not the problem that year.

For me it was about what happened when we were off if and that was a disaster imo. It's also hard to measure through OPTA. How many tackles did he make? Interceptions? And more importantly - how well did he sit in front the back 4 and how well did he protect them?

 

[Wiberg]

No one has a hard one.
People are just pointing out what a clueless mong you are.

No Leo - you are pointing that out. I have zero interest in you. If you leave me alone I would gladly return the favor. Or you could respond and actually write a post about football, to me or someone else, showing some insight? Ohh wait, no you can't...

 

[Leo]

No Leo - you are pointing that out. I have zero interest in you. If you leave me alone I would gladly return the favor. Or you could respond and actually write a post about football, to me or someone else, showing some insight? Ohh wait, no you can't...

Read above chief.
You were found out again.
I'll leave it there anyways because you're not here to please anybody.
Hahahaha tragic bell.

 

[Wiberg]

Read above chief.
You were found out again.
I'll leave it there anyways because you're not here to please anybody.
Hahahaha tragic bell.

Read above - I'm looking for your great post and insight about football - is it posted above?

The only thing you are capable of is repeatedly stating that I got owned and then hoping some of your friends will jump in to present some sort of argument. Sounds about right?

 

[King Binny]

Carra:
[article=http://www.skysports.com/football/news/29327/9935768/jamie-carragher-arsenal-start-the-season-as-chelseas-biggest-threat-while-it-is-vital-liverpool-do-not-lose-at-stoke]I would have liked to have seen them sign a defensive midfield player, with Steven Gerrard having moved on. Emre Can can maybe step in there and you still have Lucas Leiva, but it looks like a position that Liverpool need to fill, and it is one that I am slightly surprised they haven’t given their defensive record over the last few years.[/article]

 

[mark1975]

I'm not saying that Lucas is an awesome footballer. Im saying that we played that streak without a DM and because of an absolutely awesome offense we crushed opponents like we did in the 80's. I think we would have been better off with Lucas in that streak. Better balance. Lucas only played 20 games in that campaign. The first games without Suarez and forward until he usual November injury.

The 11 penalties could probably have been scored by others? When you look at the number of free-kicks and corners taken by the Captain it really isn't that impressive when it comes to assists and goals. Far from it. Not to say that he didn't have his moments but he was far from what he used to be at that point playing a position he couldn't handle. So we played gun slinging Indianan football with no HM/DM.

I don't think on any level that it would have hurt us to have Lucas in there. Quite the opposite. He would have handed over the ball to Hendo, Coutinho or Sterling and we would have been moving forward with the same pace. But of course we had to play Gerrard. No question.

My general point is that the team of 13/14 lacked balance. We were a disaster on our own final third off the ball. I think we can agree on that much??

I don't think we were a disaster. We saw out alot of games throughout the second half without conceding, having finished teams off in the first. Maybe it was just a mixture of a lack of legs in the in final games, the loss of Henderson and teams basically just getting wise to us. We did concede goals, yeah, I agree we had to outscore teams in alot of games, but we also walked away unscathed from games against Arsenal, Everton and Spurs.

 

[Halmeister]

I have no interest, or time for that matter, for some sort of condescending dialogue - in reference to your DJ remark. Just because Leo has a hard-on for me you don't need to join the party. I'm not here to please anybody - nor am I here to make enemies.

Had Sterling not been judged offside when he was 4 meters on-side against City and so on. It's not about that. I tried to convey me views to Mark and Dave. Sorry if it doesn't sit well with you or makes sense.

So you were the DJ then. Sorted.

 

[mark1975]

Lads give it a rest, you're derailing what has otherwise been a good thread and decent debate. No need for the insults. Cunts.

 

[cloggypop]

You got owned again in this thread so maybe it's time to try a new sport maybe.
You were bragging about drinking a 50 quid bottle of wine on your holidays in some look at me destination a few weeks back.
So maybe that's your thing.

Wiberg is a Scando and probably pays that for a pint anyway. He might have just been surprised how cheap it was.

 

[Halmeister]

Fair enough, Mark, I will try and get it back on track...

I have a lot of sympathy for Gerrard and think he was misused in his last few years for us and I have two main reasons why...

1) I feel, as he proved, he was always most effective as an attacking midfielder. Him being thrown back into a midfield two started with that dinosaur Hodgson and his 442 and he's been playing there ever since. He was never defensively disciplined as such, though he was great at the reactionary tackles and that. But he was never a great defensive reader of the game. Once Hodgson was gone, Kenny continued to play him there, though he was injured for a lot of his tenure.

Once Rodgers came in, he should have been moved further forward again. I don't buy that he didn't have the legs for it. You see these old cunts wander about into their forties running the show. Look at Totti and the way Riquelme played the game. Not saying Gerrard is as tactically astute as those players, but he would have been more than good enough to play there the last 3 years or so, and could probably still do it now. My opinion is he should have been playing behind the striker all this time. Though whether he wanted to play there is another issue, and a question I'm rising purely out of conjecture.

2) IF you're going to play him deep, stick someone with legs and a defensive midfielder to sweep up for him. Pirlo always had someone to do the dirty work for him as he took the piss, and Xabi Alonso, while defensively good, looks even better with some hard cunt next to him. Gerrard was left to try and protect the defence AND start attacks. That was never going to end well. Especially since, as I mentioned before, his defensive responsibility is a weak point.

Having a go at him for being misused and then playing beneath his capabilities is unfair. It'd be like sticking Sturridge right mid and moaning he's not quite as good as he was up front. We didn't play to his strengths for the last 5 years. Nobody has done that since Rafa.

 

[mark1975]

Cheers Hal, it wasn't directed at you anyway, yours just happened to be the last post.

Yeah I agree with all of that, he was always better when allowed to roam. Despite the odd costly defensive hiccup, I think in 13/14 his good from that position outweighed his bad, he was a good pivot to have, but we perhaps didn't set ourselves up around him to accommodate his lack of "legs" to cover ground, etc. He should never have been the last line before the defense, he should have been the deep play maker (if we were so intent on playing him there), with more protection when needed alongside him.

As you say though, I'd have preferred to have seen him play out his twilight years further forward. I just think that the partnership of Suarez and Sturridge put paid to that. Gerrard wouldn't have worked so well behind Suarez because he didn't play on the shoulder, he liked to roam as much as Gerrard once did.

 

[Hansern]

@Liddellpool: Lucas left out of the squad entirely following a fall-out which presumably now promotes the prospect of a parting *Paul Joyce* #LFC

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Oh no The Caped Crusader fell out his tree house

 

[Halmeister]

No defensive mids at all then? Sound.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Didn't see that coming. He doesn't seem the type. Wonder if it's something to do with the vice captaincy.

 

[Hansern]

No defensive mids at all then? Sound.

Same article says he'll need replacing if sold.
Think we'll deffo get a dm if he leaves.

 

[Halmeister]

Any idea what the fall out is over? We need a dm even if he stays.

 

[eecheerow]

We definitely need to bring in another CM if he goes. I guess we could see if there's any truth to the Illarramendi rumours now.

 

[Woland]

Carra was talking about the need for a DM on sky yesterday. When asked about who he'd enjoyed playing with at Liverpool he said he'd been very lucky to have hamann and then masch in front of the defence, but when asked about Lucas he just a pulled a face.

He's fucking shite

 

[peterhague]

He had about a year before his cruciate injury in 2011 when he looked like a good DM. But he has never recovered from it and he was poor before that.