3-4-3

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

"We have regained our identity in how the team has played for two years," Rodgers said.
"The system is working very well for us. In my time here we've played a lot of different systems but this one is exciting."

I'm still not convinced. Yes, our defence has stopped hemorrhaging goals but it's only because we've played sub-par opposition the last few games, and still managed to look vulnerable each time we're being put under pressure.

I still think we're due a trashing. Especially once we're up against a more lethal and ruthless strikeforce.

Against Villa, Moreno and Markovic spent most of their time reverting to wingbacks and this nullified our attacking play down the lines. Villa noticed this earlier on and put 2 players on Markovic - Abgalonhor (?) and Cissokho. Not taking credit away from Markovic, he did pretty well but on the few occasions that those 2 beat him, they managed to whip in some dangerous crosses. If Villa had better finishing, we would have been punished. Heck, even Hutton managed to bomb down the right flank a few times.

I worry if we play against teams like Chelsea or City, who will ruthlessly exploit our papered cracks, we will crumble and realize we really haven't turned the corner.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

 

[Frogfish]

I'm still not convinced. Yes, our defence has stopped hemorrhaging goals but it's only because we've played sub-par opposition the last few games, and still managed to look vulnerable each time we're being put under pressure.

I still think we're due a trashing. Especially once we're up against a more lethal and ruthless strikeforce.

Against Villa, Moreno and Markovic spent most of their time reverting to wingbacks and this nullified our attacking play down the lines. Villa noticed this earlier on and put 2 players on Markovic - Abgalonhor (?) and Cissokho. Not taking credit away from Markovic, he did pretty well but on the few occasions that those 2 beat him, they managed to whip in some dangerous crosses. If Villa had better finishing, we would have been punished. Heck, even Hutton managed to bomb down the right flank a few times.

I worry if we play against teams like Chelsea or City, who will ruthlessly exploit our papered cracks, we will crumble and realize we really haven't turned the corner.

If it's only Chelsea and City who you are worried about then we have already turned that corner. We conceded 3 to United but we were very unlucky that day, it happens. Against Arsenal we again deserved to win. At the moment I feel confident going into any match, aside from Chelsea or City ... and we'll see how that works out on Tuesday.

 

[rurikbird]

I'm still not convinced. Yes, our defence has stopped hemorrhaging goals but it's only because we've played sub-par opposition the last few games, and still managed to look vulnerable each time we're being put under pressure.

I still think we're due a trashing. Especially once we're up against a more lethal and ruthless strikeforce.

Against Villa, Moreno and Markovic spent most of their time reverting to wingbacks and this nullified our attacking play down the lines. Villa noticed this earlier on and put 2 players on Markovic - Abgalonhor (?) and Cissokho. Not taking credit away from Markovic, he did pretty well but on the few occasions that those 2 beat him, they managed to whip in some dangerous crosses. If Villa had better finishing, we would have been punished. Heck, even Hutton managed to bomb down the right flank a few times.

I worry if we play against teams like Chelsea or City, who will ruthlessly exploit our papered cracks, we will crumble and realize we really haven't turned the corner.

WE WILL NOT CRUMBLE

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

It won't take long before classier opposition notice the weak link in the 3-4-3 system. The flanks..

We revert to a 5-4-1 when under pressure and i noticed in our last 3 games, we rarely play quick counter-attacks anymore. Instead, we build slowly from the back, once we've retrieved the ball again.

Perhaps Brendan saw the relatively easy fixture of games and thought it would be a good time to stabilize the team and go back to basics.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

The key to a successful 3-4-3, i feel, is the holding midfielder and it's no wonder that Lucas has excelled in the last few games. When one of the CBs are stretched to cover the flanks, the DM has to cover the defence.

Lucas will be absolutely crucial if we're to go on a winning run.

 

[Frogfish]

It won't take long before classier opposition notice the weak link in the 3-4-3 system. The flanks..

We revert to a 5-4-1 when under pressure and i noticed in our last 3 games, we rarely play quick counter-attacks anymore. Instead, we build slowly from the back, once we've retrieved the ball again.

Perhaps Brendan saw the relatively easy fixture of games and thought it would be a good time to stabilize the team and go back to basics.

Frankly. I couldn't disagree more. Opposition managers don't currently have their hands over their eyes though will take them off at some time in the future. Certainly you don't notice our formation (and perceived weakness) and they somehow miss it ! Seeing something and being able to take advantage of it, or even having the right players to do so, are two totally different things.
The flanks aren't played in isolation and we've looked far more stable at the back since changing to 3-4-3. The defence looks confident (notice even Ming's confidence has soared, for me MoM yesterday, the way he came for, and caught, crosses, was far more vocal and steady with his kicking), the midfield is functioning very well and the attack look dangerous, fast and tricky .. even if their finishing is lacking. Every formation has it's strengths & weaknesses, so long as we are covering them whilst excelling in other areas of the pitch then the system is working.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

Really ? We looked stable at the back ?

That's not what I perceived from yesterday's match. Villa were all over us during most parts of the 2nd half, and if their strikers were a bit more clinical, we would have easily drew or lost the game. It was the same with Sunderland.

And mind you, both teams were pretty crap too.

 

[Frogfish]

Really ? We looked stable at the back ?

That's not what I perceived from yesterday's match. Villa were all over us during most parts of the 2nd half, and if their strikers were a bit more clinical, we would have easily drew or lost the game. It was the same with Sunderland.

And mind you, both teams were pretty crap too.

That isn't correct at all. We started off the 2nd half exactly as we had virtually all of the first, controlling and dominating but unable to put away the 2nd goal to kill off the match. Then they made 2 substitutions and threw everything at us. It is very very rare in any match that one of the teams doesn't have a spell on the front foot - this was Villas and it lasted for 15 mins before we re-established control and they faded away.

During their purple patch, which consisted mostly of lumping cross after cross into the box, Skrtel was imperious and owned Benteke (who got one header way off target). Bar one goal-mouth scramble, and one time Benteke was put through on the right (great save from Ming), they didn't have any clear-cut chances.

In any 90 mins both teams will have their chances, to deride our performance (or specifically the defence) based on the 3 half chances they had (there was a Baker header at some time during the match too - I forget exactly when) is to ignore the fact that every team concedes opportunities to the opposition in every match, it's how you deal with them, how you otherwise control the match and how many you score, that shows the quality of a performance.

You sound like one of those anti-LFC pundits (in my case it's that fucking dimwit Paul Parker and some ex-Australia player, Abbas) that bleat on about the oppositions missed chances and how we were lucky and yet completely ignore our dominance and the even better chances we had and didn't put away (quite apart from the 2 we did). Our defence played very well yesterday and have done for some time now. No matter the opposition you don't concede just 2 goals in last 5 away matches without a defence that is playing well.

Very weird timing for this thread.

 

[doctor_mac]

That isn't correct at all. We started off the 2nd half exactly as we had virtually all of the first, controlling and dominating but unable to put away the 2nd goal to kill off the match. Then they made 2 substitutions and threw everything at us. It is very very rare in any match that one of the teams doesn't have a spell on the front foot - this was Villas and it lasted for 15 mins before we re-established control and they faded away.

During their purple patch, which consisted mostly of lumping cross after cross into the box, Skrtel was imperious and owned Benteke (who got one header way off target). Bar one goal-mouth scramble, and one time Benteke was put through on the right (great save from Ming), they didn't have any clear-cut chances.

In any 90 mins both teams will have their chances, to deride our performance (or specifically the defence) based on the 3 half chances they had (there was a Baker header at some time during the match too - I forget exactly when) is to ignore the fact that every team concedes opportunities to the opposition in every match, it's how you deal with them, how you otherwise control the match and how many you score, that shows the quality of a performance.

You sound like one of those anti-LFC pundits (in my case it's that fucking dimwit Paul Parker and some ex-Australia player, Abbas) that bleat on about the oppositions missed chances and how we were lucky and yet completely ignore our dominance and the even better chances we had and didn't put away (quite apart from the 2 we did). Our defence played very well yesterday and have done for some time now. No matter the opposition you don't concede just 2 goals in last 5 away matches without a defence that is playing well.

Very weird timing for this thread.

What a great post. This is what I saw too.

 

[Fox]

The chavs will be a great test for us

 

[mom]

Froggy is spot on. We finally look more solid at the back and people are debating how shit we are defensively? You can only play what's put in front of you and we are playing well. Earlier in the season we looked shit at the back against similar opposition and leaked goals. Now, we are looking much better and are on a solid run. Enjoy it.

 

[leftpeg]

What we're seeing is the slow yet obvious unwinding of some ridiculous early-season knee jerking.

 

[Judge Jules]

The key to a successful 3-4-3, i feel, is the holding midfielder and it's no wonder that Lucas has excelled in the last few games. When one of the CBs are stretched to cover the flanks, the DM has to cover the defence.

Lucas will be absolutely crucial if we're to go on a winning run.

...as will having an alternative DM if he gets injured or suspended. Can could probably do a good job there but (a) we haven't played him there recently - if at all - and (b) he's needed in the back three anyway, so I'd prefer us to fetch another DM in this month.

 

[cloggypop]

This is a good read

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.co...-bayern-munich-tactics-3-4-3-formation-lineup

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

hmm interesting read indeed.

i'm still not convinced that we have the right players for a dynamic 3-4-3 system.

turning Markovic into a wingback stifles his attacking threat, although he did pretty well yesterday, but he could have inflicted much more damage down the right against Villa. Cissokho spent a lot of time marauding down the left side which pretty much says a lot. i"m not too sure if we'd cope well if say we're up against the likes of Chelsea.

look, i'm happy with our little run (who isn't ?!) but it'll be interesting to see how Brendan sets us up when Studge returns.

 

[mark1975]

You seem to be creating this myth that being good defensively means you never look vulnerable, it happens. We might have rode our luck a bit, but the results of late speak for themselves. We're getting better at it and seem to have found a formula that works. As said, if we've only got to worry about the big teams, then that's normal, everyone has to worry about the big teams.

 

[Mystic]

That isn't correct at all. We started off the 2nd half exactly as we had virtually all of the first, controlling and dominating but unable to put away the 2nd goal to kill off the match. Then they made 2 substitutions and threw everything at us. It is very very rare in any match that one of the teams doesn't have a spell on the front foot - this was Villas and it lasted for 15 mins before we re-established control and they faded away.

During their purple patch, which consisted mostly of lumping cross after cross into the box, Skrtel was imperious and owned Benteke (who got one header way off target). Bar one goal-mouth scramble, and one time Benteke was put through on the right (great save from Ming), they didn't have any clear-cut chances.

In any 90 mins both teams will have their chances, to deride our performance (or specifically the defence) based on the 3 half chances they had (there was a Baker header at some time during the match too - I forget exactly when) is to ignore the fact that every team concedes opportunities to the opposition in every match, it's how you deal with them, how you otherwise control the match and how many you score, that shows the quality of a performance.

You sound like one of those anti-LFC pundits (in my case it's that fucking dimwit Paul Parker and some ex-Australia player, Abbas) that bleat on about the oppositions missed chances and how we were lucky and yet completely ignore our dominance and the even better chances we had and didn't put away (quite apart from the 2 we did). Our defence played very well yesterday and have done for some time now. No matter the opposition you don't concede just 2 goals in last 5 away matches without a defence that is playing well.

Very weird timing for this thread.

Spot on Frog, the reason we looked uncomfortable at times yesterday is because we failed to score our numerous chances and invited pressure, which just gave them encouragement when they inevitably went for it and had their spell, it was no fault of the defence, which I agree looked solid yet again.

Couldn't agree more with you in regards to pundits either, it drives me mad how they forget all our chances and domination because Villa had a couple of half chances. With a bit of composure and/or luck, we'd have been three up yesterday, but that's irrelevant because Villa had a good spell, funny how its always "signs of champions" for United, City, Chelsea or Arsenal, but its always riding our luck when we do it, winds me up no end.

 

[Red Mullet]

What we're seeing is the slow yet obvious unwinding of some ridiculous early-season knee jerking.

I regret nothing.

 

[StevieM]

I'm kind of fascinated by all this tactical stuff. My read is perhaps a little different.

Last season we practically played 3 at the back a lot. The FB's pushed on and the DM (if we can call it that), be it Gerrard or Lucas (early/mid season when Gerrard was injured), dropped back in between the CB's, particularly when we had possession.

In front of Gerrard/Lucas we employed to pressing midfielders who would aid equally in attack & defence - Henderson excelled in that role & was ably backed up by either Allen or Coutinho depending on the tactical variation Rogers wanted.

I believe Rodgers has, in order to cope with the defence being completely over-run, has replaced the Gerrard/Lucas role with an additional CB..

This means that Lucas & Gerrard (if fit) are now filling the pressing midfield roles - they aren't mobile enough for that role - hence we look better when Henderson is slotted back in to one of those positions - he has a more physical presence than Allen, who while good, can get "done over" in the humdrum EPL.

The pressing midfielders have also dropped back a little deeper, which nullifies Coutinho in that role.

Lucas will always do well when he's paired with someone more mobile - his positive qualities are well documented, as are his negatives.

Can is the interesting one - he can slot in anywhere in defence & midfielder. I think once Rodgers trusts him (as he matures as a player), maybe he fills the central role in defence/DM. He also has the ability to sit alongside Henderson in the "pressing" role.

The sum total, probably means, long term we're in good shape, in that sector, even with Gerrard leaving. Lucas isn't a long term option either - but very important in the short term, so keeping him here is important.

I kinda like where we're going - still work to do - particularly on drilling the defence - although Sakho seems liberated to be aggressive & commanding, safe in the knowledge Skrtel should be covering the space in behind.

Sterling, Lallana, Coutinho, Markovic & Ibe have the AM roles covered.

We all know the main problems now lie at either end - keeper & what happens when Sturridge is broken (Origi????).

 

[Mystic]

I'm kind of fascinated by all this tactical stuff. My read is perhaps a little different.

Last season we practically played 3 at the back a lot. The FB's pushed on and the DM (if we can call it that), be it Gerrard or Lucas (early/mid season when Gerrard was injured), dropped back in between the CB's, particularly when we had possession.

In front of Gerrard/Lucas we employed to pressing midfielders who would aid equally in attack & defence - Henderson excelled in that role & was ably backed up by either Allen or Coutinho depending on the tactical variation Rogers wanted.

I believe Rodgers has, in order to cope with the defence being completely over-run, has replaced the Gerrard/Lucas role with an additional CB..

This means that Lucas & Gerrard (if fit) are now filling the pressing midfield roles - they aren't mobile enough for that role - hence we look better when Henderson is slotted back in to one of those positions - he has a more physical presence than Allen, who while good, can get "done over" in the humdrum EPL.

The pressing midfielders have also dropped back a little deeper, which nullifies Coutinho in that role.

Lucas will always do well when he's paired with someone more mobile - his positive qualities are well documented, as are his negatives.

Can is the interesting one - he can slot in anywhere in defence & midfielder. I think once Rodgers trusts him (as he matures as a player), maybe he fills the central role in defence/DM. He also has the ability to sit alongside Henderson in the "pressing" role.

The sum total, probably means, long term we're in good shape, in that sector, even with Gerrard leaving. Lucas isn't a long term option either - but very important in the short term, so keeping him here is important.

I kinda like where we're going - still work to do - particularly on drilling the defence - although Sakho seems liberated to be aggressive & commanding, safe in the knowledge Skrtel should be covering the space in behind.

Sterling, Lallana, Coutinho, Markovic & Ibe have the AM roles covered.

We all know the main problems now lie at either end - keeper & what happens when Sturridge is broken (Origi????).

Good post, I share alot of your enthusiasm, we need to use this formation to good effect against the "bigger" teams to convince me completely though, although our performance, well moreso our utter domination of Arsenal gives me great hope

 

[StevieM]

Good post, I share alot of your enthusiasm, we need to use this formation to good effect against the "bigger" teams to convince me completely though, although our performance, well moreso our utter domination of Arsenal gives me great hope

Ultimately you look at what we did in the summer, transfer wise - we gambled on long term success vs short term gains.

Personally, I'm in to this - it's a sound sustainable business model for growth - which translates well to football.

 

[Best Believe It]

I agree with @StevieM about the shape being not too dissimilar to formations we've used in the past, particularly with regards to the holding midfielder dropping between the two centre backs earlier this year and last year, making a three. I think a difference with the 3-4-2-1 is the burden it places on the wingbacks, and I still don't feel 100% secure with our options at the moment. Moreno is promising, though raw, Manquillo doesn't seem consistent enough, Johnson is too inconsistent and Enrique is all over the place. I know Markovic has played there and played well but I do wonder how well he'd cope if forced back against someone like Chelsea - but then maybe he'd be fine.

 

[rurikbird]

Speaking about wing-backs, I think at this point Markovic is our best wing-back, on either side. He is far ahead of everyone else (even Moreno) in terms of attacking threat and defensively he is not much worse than Manquillo and Enrique because his speed is such an advantage and he is willing to track back.

I would rank them roughly like this:
1. Markovic attack 9/10, defense 5/10 (14)
2. Johnson (good form) attack 7/10, defense 6/10 (13)
3. Manquillo attack 5/10, defense 6/10 (11)
3. Moreno attack 8/10, defense 3/10 (11)
4. Enrique attack 5/10, defense 5/10 (10)
5. Johnson (bad form) attack 5/10, defense 4/10 (9)

 

[Mystic]

I'd like to see Markovic and Moreno start at wing back against Chelsea, I think they're both great in the position.

 

[StevieM]

I agree with @StevieM about the shape being not too dissimilar to formations we've used in the past, particularly with regards to the holding midfielder dropping between the two centre backs earlier this year and last year, making a three. I think a difference with the 3-4-2-1 is the burden it places on the wingbacks, and I still don't feel 100% secure with our options at the moment. Moreno is promising, though raw, Manquillo doesn't seem consistent enough, Johnson is too inconsistent and Enrique is all over the place. I know Markovic has played there and played well but I do wonder how well he'd cope if forced back against someone like Chelsea - but then maybe he'd be fine.

I agree with you here, although Manquillo is young & Moreno lacking in defensive nous.

Enrique, I'm no fan of, & Johnson is gone in the summer.

Wisdom is an option, as is Flanagan.

LB will become an issue again soon.

 

[Best Believe It]

I agree with you here, although Manquillo is young & Moreno lacking in defensive nous.

Enrique, I'm no fan of, & Johnson is gone in the summer.

Wisdom is an option, as is Flanagan.

LB will become an issue again soon.

I think Wisdom would be good in the position Emre Can is playing in. Doubt he'll be an option for wing back, though Flanagan could be. Agree about LB.

 

[Mystic]

I think Wisdom would be good in the position Emre Can is playing in. Doubt he'll be an option for wing back, though Flanagan could be. Agree about LB.

Yep, Wisdom at RCB and Flanagan at LWB seems obvious. I think even with Johnson and probably Enrique leaving in the summer, we're more than covered in those positions. Moreno and Manquillo were superb pick ups as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'm not so sure about those supposed future problems at LB mentioned above. Moreno's defence is getting more stick here than I reckon it deserves, and Flanno can play (and play well) on that side too.

 

[white-sox]

I'm not so sure about those supposed future problems at LB mentioned above. Moreno's defence is getting more stick here than I reckon it deserves, and Flanno can play (and play well) on that side too.

I agree. Moreno will also get better at defending. Also a nice opportunity to reach 500 posts.

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