Yeah, makes sense then. The three of them closing down quickly, Allen tackling if needed & Lucas intercepting any attempted pass.
We don't need him. .
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Lots of good points and sober analysis in this thread. I love how our fans have an ability to remain objective even when discussing a legendary player like Gerrard, to keep appreciating him for what he is while not being blind to his shortcomings. Where I grew up, fans either put someone on a pedestal or tear them down, with little in-between.
Let's hope Allen and Henderson keep performing well in the next 4 games, so that Rodgers is forced to get creative to incorporate Gerrard back in the team, while not losing the good things about this midfield.
Let's hope Allen and Henderson keep performing well in the next 4 games, so that Rodgers is forced to get creative to incorporate Gerrard back in the team, while not losing the good things about this midfield.
Stevie just doesn't look bothered nowadays. Just seems like football is a 9 to 5 job to him now. I don't think it has anything to do with his fitness, I mean look at a player like Xabi Alonso who's slower and less agile than Stevie, playing for Real in the middle.
I believe he needs motivation, saw the pre match talk on SKY last weekend and I'm absolutely sure he thought we'd lose the game and I don't blame him. He's been disappointed so many times before that I think he just can't be arsed any more and it's a scary thought. He didn't even look bothered when he got injured against West Ham.
I have a strong feeling that if we can keep this form going and get the "right" results during Stevie's absence, we'll see a rejuvinated and motivated captain taking the reigns again and leading by example.
I believe he needs motivation, saw the pre match talk on SKY last weekend and I'm absolutely sure he thought we'd lose the game and I don't blame him. He's been disappointed so many times before that I think he just can't be arsed any more and it's a scary thought. He didn't even look bothered when he got injured against West Ham.
I have a strong feeling that if we can keep this form going and get the "right" results during Stevie's absence, we'll see a rejuvinated and motivated captain taking the reigns again and leading by example.
I've said it before, I don't think we can play two stagnant midfielders and expect success, especially given the more active role the MF is supposed to play in winning the ball. Pairing Allen/Hendo with Lucas in the 4231 we're doing works well because you have a more dynamic midfield, but a Gerrard/Lucas combo is just going to get run through by most sides. I'm not convinced a Gerrard Lucas/Hendo pairing would be a success, but it's likely worth a try.
It looks like we set up in a 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-3 against Spurs, with a MF trio of Hendo, Allen, and Lucas, who was a bit deeper. Allen by nature being a less aggressive player usually sat back with Lucas linking up play, while Hendo did more of the running, opening up gaps and channels. If we played Gerrard instead of Allen(or Hendo), we'd either be losing a lot of the quick passing that Allen brings, or Hendo's bursting runs/pressing, versus more/better set pieces and long balls. I don't know if that's a tradeoff worth making, but the formation we played in seems to have a very good balance to it. You have a holder, a passer, and a runner in MF, plus a winger, creator, and striker in attack.
It looks like we set up in a 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-3 against Spurs, with a MF trio of Hendo, Allen, and Lucas, who was a bit deeper. Allen by nature being a less aggressive player usually sat back with Lucas linking up play, while Hendo did more of the running, opening up gaps and channels. If we played Gerrard instead of Allen(or Hendo), we'd either be losing a lot of the quick passing that Allen brings, or Hendo's bursting runs/pressing, versus more/better set pieces and long balls. I don't know if that's a tradeoff worth making, but the formation we played in seems to have a very good balance to it. You have a holder, a passer, and a runner in MF, plus a winger, creator, and striker in attack.
I don't believe it's that at all. I just think his body is incapable of giving the same gut busting performances these days
Yeah, I actually think it scares him on some level. He's worried that he's no longer got the power, the speed and then ability to surge through midfield and lash it into the top corner. Instead he plays within himself and so avoids proving this to himself.
I've heard a number of elite athletes talk about the battle they had convincing themselves they still had it. They stepped into the arena each time fearing they would fail to perform and thereby confirm their fears. Their solution was to not attempt that kind of performance - that way they could hold onto the belief they still had it.
I've heard a number of elite athletes talk about the battle they had convincing themselves they still had it. They stepped into the arena each time fearing they would fail to perform and thereby confirm their fears. Their solution was to not attempt that kind of performance - that way they could hold onto the belief they still had it.
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This is what happens when you employ sports psychologists that do nothing but chat a load of gay bollox about how Gerrard needs to believe and visualize. Visualize man.
Utter shit that doesn't make a jot of difference. All it does is make our best player wonder about why he is being told to believe, and whether he has some sort of problem
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Stolen from RAWK:
[article=http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=310745.msg12260164#msg12260164]I’ve grown up idolising a man. I was only 8 or 9 when he made his debut against Blackburn and all through my life I’ve loved the explosive dynamo that is Steven Gerrard. He’s been such an exciting player to witness with a swashbuckling swagger and verve to his game where he literally looks like the biggest man in the stadium let alone on the pitch. In his prime he was absolutely one of the very best in the world wherever he played. There was nothing in his game where he couldn’t look at another top player and say ‘I’m better at that than you’. Tackling, passing, shooting, acceleration, pace, control, heading, blocking, finishing, strength, stamina; you pluck almost any player in football who specialised in two of them qualities and Gerrard was better at it than them as well as the rest. A kid, a talent, a boss, a phenomenon, a king, a god; there’s not a stage Gerrard didn’t take to, prove his metal, his worth, his body, heart and soul and verify himself superior to almost anything you could put in front of him. If you could compare him to a movie star, you just wouldn’t because none of them are Steven Gerrard.
A captain at 23 and the key player in our side for over ten years and counting, this sentence alone could summarise Steven Gerrard for what he would become capable of, but it’s so unfair to try and encapsulate him. You could point to Istanbul, Olympiakos, West Ham at Wembley or frankly any multitude of games well into the hundreds and still it wouldn’t seem to justify what Steven Gerrard is all about. Just how talented, athletic and passionate he was and is couldn’t be comprehended without seeing it all, being there even if only in heart and not body for the 646 games he has done more than just play for this club but at times carry on his shoulders amidst the entity of greatness and expectation that surrounds it, embracing this wonderful football club and city; it’s an honour.
It was his drive that really captured the imagination. Gerrard could appear from nowhere galloping like a racehorse towards the opposition penalty area, his eyes narrowed, his glare firm, and his strike sweet as he made it habitual to arrive from deep just at the right time to rifle the ball into the corner of the goal time and time again. But he could do so much more, as he chased and harried in midfield and lunged out with a telescopic leg take make a tackle that looked quite frankly impossible, hooking the ball away from his opponent before quickly getting back to his feet to go and support for the ball. Once he got it he could spray passes wherever he chose with pinpoint precision as he stretched games length and widthways at a canter before slotting a perfect through ball for any half decent run in behind. He’d play right back in European cup finals, throw himself in front of goal, charge players off the ball and surge towards the opponents half. Winning headers, making tackles, scoring goals and assists, there was little this man couldn’t do on a football park.
We’ve been blessed, because we can compare Steven Gerrard to the likes of Kenny Dalglish, Emlyn Hughes, John Barnes, Ian Rush, St John and many more. Most clubs, 99% of clubs, don’t even see a player with half of Stevie’s ability in its history. Anybody that underplays this man and what he has done over his tenure is not one of us. Alex Ferguson for example – born out of so much bitterness he cannot even applaud possibly the greatest talent of a generation because he wasn’t his. The fact that a man that despises this club so much doesn’t have a particularly good word to voice of our captains abilities speaks volumes of its own. He hates the fact that Steven is a born scouser that plays with the passion and bluster for Liverpool. It tears him up that we produced something and someone better than he ever could even with all the coaches, scouts and Premier League medals in the world.
I can be somewhat of a romanticist at times when it comes to the club I love and the players who I crave to make it successful, but my football brain keeps ticking over between my ears and my heart sinks when I see somebody get the better of Gerrard. I am not in the habit of criticising players, knee-jerking or ‘fanboying’. There are things that are becoming apparent and have been doing over the last year or so in regards to doubting whether Gerrard brings more to the side than he does take away from it. He’s always been athletic and reactive; his game is of course built on the foundations of talent but the explosive pace, strength and stamina that accompanied his technical qualities are really what have made him an extraordinary player rather than just a very good one. It’s the blend of mentality, athleticism and technical skills that have allowed Gerrard to become the iconic figure of Liverpool’s recent history; jack of all trades, master of most. The problem is, nature dictates that while his talent and will to win will never waver, his body will, and that’s the cause we’ve had for concern this last 18 months or so has been. He has lost explosiveness, he has lost the ability to lunge time and time again and travel the length of the pitch for fun. There’s nobody that can do a thing about it, time waits for no mortal nor god alike.
Take away the romanticism; screw your football head on and listen to what we’ve heard our incredibly bright manager say. When Brendan Rodgers speaks about midfield he talks about energy, pressing, functionality pressure, and ‘earning the right to play’. Henderson, Allen and Lucas almost sum up that in their game, the aforementioned duo particularly. The idea is to challenge the player with the ball as early as possible, and with persistence and tenacity all across the midfield with players acting in a pack affect. One player goes and directly challenges the opponent (this will customarily be the nearest player to the ball) whilst another goes and cuts off a passing angle, and a third picking up a position where the ball is likely to drop duo to two angles being cut off – pick up somewhere in between the two remaining angles (Alonso was superb at this) and the ball may well find its way within a few yards of you if it isn’t already with your team mates. The art of anticipation in midfield. The roles will of course change dependant on where the ball is, so all of them must have an idea of how to do this and must be able to press in the system we play. It doesn’t apply to every game though, let me make that clear – I still think there are easily 25 games across a season schedule where one of the pressers can be dropped for more finesse.
I’ve been politely saying that Stevie is a luxury player for some time now, and he is an excellent one lest we forget. In games at Anfield where we are going to be allowed to play on the front foot and Gerrard is allowed time and space then he is a player we can afford to have on the park for his pure ability at the expense of balance/energy/mobility because we are not going to be pressed as tenaciously in midfield as we do away from home. Part of the reason for our good form against the fodder at Anfield is because of Stevie’s technical brilliance to pick a range of passes with the time and space to find and execute them, as well as giving us a noteworthy edge at set-pieces recently. He does this very well, and even back in his prime despite his ill-discipline positionally (one of the only flaws in Gerrard’s game) I urged Rafa to start Gerrard deeper in games where we were struggling to score against deep, organised backlines even though I never rated him as highly as a cm as I did out wide or higher up the pitch – I suppose the problem was we didn’t have anybody further up the pitch to replace his significant goal threat from there – I never did like him playing with his back to goal though, so I guess there’s arguments on both sides of the coin, but Rafa is a cannier man than I.
The problem is when we play teams that will pressure the space in midfield by squeezing the backline up and sanctioning their midfielders to press ferociously rather than contain and hold positionally. Gerrard has lost that explosiveness a reactive player needs to be competitive in the hustle and his lack of ability to press and track runners effectively has cost us and made the midfield look weaker than the sum of its parts. People are quick to point to key pass and possession stats and a lack of creativity without Gerrard in the side. Whilst I can understand their concerns particularly at home against stubborn teams, I think they are failing to realise what it is we actually want primarily in midfield, functionality.
Functionality means providing a solid basis where you can expect certain things at certain times. Our midfield against Spurs produced what was expected by winning the ball back quickly, keeping possession well when required, as well as showing the ability to play key passes and play on the break with Henderson giving us a short glimpse of what we used to once regularly see from Stevie by striding through the midfield on the break at pace and playing clever balls in and around full backs to open sides up. Allen of course keeps the ball very well and has shown he can be creative albeit in a different manner. I’ve used this expression for years, but if a midfielder were trying to get into a house, Steven Gerrard would bash the door down, Xavi would pick the lock, and Alonso would go round to the side door. Gerrard is doing more of the latter than his old style, but there are three key ways to get through a midfield to create chances and Henderson and Allen between them fall into two whilst Stevie offers a bit of each but without the functionality behind it.
We don’t want to admit it, or can’t, and others have been peddling shite about Gerrard for years regardless of how he’s done because there is an albeit small anti-Gerrard brigade. Criticising or questioning his role in the first team is sometimes treated as blasphemous, so you’re associated with these types who for some reason do hold an agenda against our skipper (Andy@ would love this thread title were he still among us) but we are not questioning the legend himself or his talent, we are questioning how much his body and lack of athleticism is affecting the team as a whole. For these reasons, some of us have veiled at thoughts and solutions rather than regurgitate the points; I know I’ve held back a fair bit from voicing my concerns, and I don’t doubt you’ve done so yourself, despite your honesty, because of the reaction you’ll inevitably get. I’m not sure what takes more balls, dropping Steven Gerrard or suggesting it on RAWK. It’s perfectly comprehensible and I empathise wholeheartedly as I witness my childhood hero gradually fall from grace; my brain itches at these thoughts because Stevie is one of us, and we defend our own – it’s part of the Liverpool Way.
Nature however, is even bigger than the club, and by proxy, bigger than the man I have idolised for so long.[/article]
[article=http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=310745.msg12260164#msg12260164]I’ve grown up idolising a man. I was only 8 or 9 when he made his debut against Blackburn and all through my life I’ve loved the explosive dynamo that is Steven Gerrard. He’s been such an exciting player to witness with a swashbuckling swagger and verve to his game where he literally looks like the biggest man in the stadium let alone on the pitch. In his prime he was absolutely one of the very best in the world wherever he played. There was nothing in his game where he couldn’t look at another top player and say ‘I’m better at that than you’. Tackling, passing, shooting, acceleration, pace, control, heading, blocking, finishing, strength, stamina; you pluck almost any player in football who specialised in two of them qualities and Gerrard was better at it than them as well as the rest. A kid, a talent, a boss, a phenomenon, a king, a god; there’s not a stage Gerrard didn’t take to, prove his metal, his worth, his body, heart and soul and verify himself superior to almost anything you could put in front of him. If you could compare him to a movie star, you just wouldn’t because none of them are Steven Gerrard.
A captain at 23 and the key player in our side for over ten years and counting, this sentence alone could summarise Steven Gerrard for what he would become capable of, but it’s so unfair to try and encapsulate him. You could point to Istanbul, Olympiakos, West Ham at Wembley or frankly any multitude of games well into the hundreds and still it wouldn’t seem to justify what Steven Gerrard is all about. Just how talented, athletic and passionate he was and is couldn’t be comprehended without seeing it all, being there even if only in heart and not body for the 646 games he has done more than just play for this club but at times carry on his shoulders amidst the entity of greatness and expectation that surrounds it, embracing this wonderful football club and city; it’s an honour.
It was his drive that really captured the imagination. Gerrard could appear from nowhere galloping like a racehorse towards the opposition penalty area, his eyes narrowed, his glare firm, and his strike sweet as he made it habitual to arrive from deep just at the right time to rifle the ball into the corner of the goal time and time again. But he could do so much more, as he chased and harried in midfield and lunged out with a telescopic leg take make a tackle that looked quite frankly impossible, hooking the ball away from his opponent before quickly getting back to his feet to go and support for the ball. Once he got it he could spray passes wherever he chose with pinpoint precision as he stretched games length and widthways at a canter before slotting a perfect through ball for any half decent run in behind. He’d play right back in European cup finals, throw himself in front of goal, charge players off the ball and surge towards the opponents half. Winning headers, making tackles, scoring goals and assists, there was little this man couldn’t do on a football park.
We’ve been blessed, because we can compare Steven Gerrard to the likes of Kenny Dalglish, Emlyn Hughes, John Barnes, Ian Rush, St John and many more. Most clubs, 99% of clubs, don’t even see a player with half of Stevie’s ability in its history. Anybody that underplays this man and what he has done over his tenure is not one of us. Alex Ferguson for example – born out of so much bitterness he cannot even applaud possibly the greatest talent of a generation because he wasn’t his. The fact that a man that despises this club so much doesn’t have a particularly good word to voice of our captains abilities speaks volumes of its own. He hates the fact that Steven is a born scouser that plays with the passion and bluster for Liverpool. It tears him up that we produced something and someone better than he ever could even with all the coaches, scouts and Premier League medals in the world.
I can be somewhat of a romanticist at times when it comes to the club I love and the players who I crave to make it successful, but my football brain keeps ticking over between my ears and my heart sinks when I see somebody get the better of Gerrard. I am not in the habit of criticising players, knee-jerking or ‘fanboying’. There are things that are becoming apparent and have been doing over the last year or so in regards to doubting whether Gerrard brings more to the side than he does take away from it. He’s always been athletic and reactive; his game is of course built on the foundations of talent but the explosive pace, strength and stamina that accompanied his technical qualities are really what have made him an extraordinary player rather than just a very good one. It’s the blend of mentality, athleticism and technical skills that have allowed Gerrard to become the iconic figure of Liverpool’s recent history; jack of all trades, master of most. The problem is, nature dictates that while his talent and will to win will never waver, his body will, and that’s the cause we’ve had for concern this last 18 months or so has been. He has lost explosiveness, he has lost the ability to lunge time and time again and travel the length of the pitch for fun. There’s nobody that can do a thing about it, time waits for no mortal nor god alike.
Take away the romanticism; screw your football head on and listen to what we’ve heard our incredibly bright manager say. When Brendan Rodgers speaks about midfield he talks about energy, pressing, functionality pressure, and ‘earning the right to play’. Henderson, Allen and Lucas almost sum up that in their game, the aforementioned duo particularly. The idea is to challenge the player with the ball as early as possible, and with persistence and tenacity all across the midfield with players acting in a pack affect. One player goes and directly challenges the opponent (this will customarily be the nearest player to the ball) whilst another goes and cuts off a passing angle, and a third picking up a position where the ball is likely to drop duo to two angles being cut off – pick up somewhere in between the two remaining angles (Alonso was superb at this) and the ball may well find its way within a few yards of you if it isn’t already with your team mates. The art of anticipation in midfield. The roles will of course change dependant on where the ball is, so all of them must have an idea of how to do this and must be able to press in the system we play. It doesn’t apply to every game though, let me make that clear – I still think there are easily 25 games across a season schedule where one of the pressers can be dropped for more finesse.
I’ve been politely saying that Stevie is a luxury player for some time now, and he is an excellent one lest we forget. In games at Anfield where we are going to be allowed to play on the front foot and Gerrard is allowed time and space then he is a player we can afford to have on the park for his pure ability at the expense of balance/energy/mobility because we are not going to be pressed as tenaciously in midfield as we do away from home. Part of the reason for our good form against the fodder at Anfield is because of Stevie’s technical brilliance to pick a range of passes with the time and space to find and execute them, as well as giving us a noteworthy edge at set-pieces recently. He does this very well, and even back in his prime despite his ill-discipline positionally (one of the only flaws in Gerrard’s game) I urged Rafa to start Gerrard deeper in games where we were struggling to score against deep, organised backlines even though I never rated him as highly as a cm as I did out wide or higher up the pitch – I suppose the problem was we didn’t have anybody further up the pitch to replace his significant goal threat from there – I never did like him playing with his back to goal though, so I guess there’s arguments on both sides of the coin, but Rafa is a cannier man than I.
The problem is when we play teams that will pressure the space in midfield by squeezing the backline up and sanctioning their midfielders to press ferociously rather than contain and hold positionally. Gerrard has lost that explosiveness a reactive player needs to be competitive in the hustle and his lack of ability to press and track runners effectively has cost us and made the midfield look weaker than the sum of its parts. People are quick to point to key pass and possession stats and a lack of creativity without Gerrard in the side. Whilst I can understand their concerns particularly at home against stubborn teams, I think they are failing to realise what it is we actually want primarily in midfield, functionality.
Functionality means providing a solid basis where you can expect certain things at certain times. Our midfield against Spurs produced what was expected by winning the ball back quickly, keeping possession well when required, as well as showing the ability to play key passes and play on the break with Henderson giving us a short glimpse of what we used to once regularly see from Stevie by striding through the midfield on the break at pace and playing clever balls in and around full backs to open sides up. Allen of course keeps the ball very well and has shown he can be creative albeit in a different manner. I’ve used this expression for years, but if a midfielder were trying to get into a house, Steven Gerrard would bash the door down, Xavi would pick the lock, and Alonso would go round to the side door. Gerrard is doing more of the latter than his old style, but there are three key ways to get through a midfield to create chances and Henderson and Allen between them fall into two whilst Stevie offers a bit of each but without the functionality behind it.
We don’t want to admit it, or can’t, and others have been peddling shite about Gerrard for years regardless of how he’s done because there is an albeit small anti-Gerrard brigade. Criticising or questioning his role in the first team is sometimes treated as blasphemous, so you’re associated with these types who for some reason do hold an agenda against our skipper (Andy@ would love this thread title were he still among us) but we are not questioning the legend himself or his talent, we are questioning how much his body and lack of athleticism is affecting the team as a whole. For these reasons, some of us have veiled at thoughts and solutions rather than regurgitate the points; I know I’ve held back a fair bit from voicing my concerns, and I don’t doubt you’ve done so yourself, despite your honesty, because of the reaction you’ll inevitably get. I’m not sure what takes more balls, dropping Steven Gerrard or suggesting it on RAWK. It’s perfectly comprehensible and I empathise wholeheartedly as I witness my childhood hero gradually fall from grace; my brain itches at these thoughts because Stevie is one of us, and we defend our own – it’s part of the Liverpool Way.
Nature however, is even bigger than the club, and by proxy, bigger than the man I have idolised for so long.[/article]
That RAWK post is pure puke inducing superfan drivel, he could of written the point he had to say in 1 paragraph.
Thats the thing with RAWK though isn't it, if he had written a standard non sugar-coated puke inducing post it would of most likely been deleted along with him being banned because he wasn't conforming with the cult of RAWK as he was basically criticising one of our players, and not just any player either.
Thats the thing with RAWK though isn't it, if he had written a standard non sugar-coated puke inducing post it would of most likely been deleted along with him being banned because he wasn't conforming with the cult of RAWK as he was basically criticising one of our players, and not just any player either.
It is but that was a big eye opener the other day so it is understandable why the can of worms has burst open on the Gerrard/midfield debate.
It's also poorly written gibberish.
Its a huge stinking pile of self important shite.
Do RAWK moderators delete posts that use "of" as a verb*? If ours did the same then the post count here would be pitiful
*note to the wise old man : I know its NOT a verb, that's my point 😉
Pop at my grammar? *shrugs shoulders*
Never have or will understand why people on the internet give 1 miniscule flying fuck if a strangers isn't grammar perfect, maybe if its really awful and hard to understand/comprehend, each to their own though.
Never have or will understand why people on the internet give 1 miniscule flying fuck if a strangers isn't grammar perfect, maybe if its really awful and hard to understand/comprehend, each to their own though.
Ha. It's starting to piss me off enough to consider it!
Well stevie is slightly playing within himself to get him through matches, so I'd say there was a possibility.
However, he has his last world cup chance (in Rio no less) to aim for & plan for in the summer, so I suspect he'll still hold a bit back & be slightly more cautious than we'd like, so I can't see it.
I think if we gave him 60 minutes and told him that from the start, he'd not ration his energy as much. That and using him as an impact sub. The idea that a 32 year old player, no matter how iconic, plays 90 minutes of every game is just misguided. Lets try and use Gerrard in bursts, rather than playing a diluted version of him.
Yep, that's what I'd like to see too.
I'm a diminutive airborne fornicator
Oh ... and it's not grammar in this case
😉
Fair enough, thought it was a bit ironic you having a go at anyone about grammar.
If you want a pop can't you just go down the standard route? dunno if its just me but its all a bit cryptic, *whoooshes over head*
Why is poor grammar acceptable because it's the 'internet'? Poor grammar wasn't acceptable in books from the library.
But I know f'ck all about football, so the only "have a pop" route I have is non standard 🙂
Last time I did this, it infuriated the poster so much that he trawled all my old posts pointing out spelling mistakes left right & center. I maintained that I am good at spelling, just crap at typing, but it didn't matter, his revenge was already sweet
I actually feel quite relieved Gerrard is not fit to play tomorrow.
We need to constantly press the Man City midfield, up the tempo as we did against Spurs if we want to get something out of this game
With Gerrard in the side it will only go against that ethos and slow our midfield down..
That being said I still think we will get beat, but we stand a better chance of getting something without Gerrard..
We need to constantly press the Man City midfield, up the tempo as we did against Spurs if we want to get something out of this game
With Gerrard in the side it will only go against that ethos and slow our midfield down..
That being said I still think we will get beat, but we stand a better chance of getting something without Gerrard..
Far from it..
As much as I still rate Gerrard.. I just think our midfield will cope better without him tomorrow against City..
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