Lucas

[ILD]

I don't subscribe to the Gerrard hate at all. A lot of posters (no one in particular) have been consistently targeting him in the match threads. He has the odd sloppy moment in games but he isn't a liability or warrants dropping. That's a bit OTT in my book.

I hope he has a decent derby, he was below par at Goodison, earlier in the season.

 

[Fabio]

I don't subscribe to the Gerrard hate at all. A lot of posters (no one in particular) have been consistently targeting him in the match threads. He has the odd sloppy moment in games but he isn't a liability or warrants dropping. That's a bit OTT in my book.

I hope he has a decent derby, he was below par at Goodison, earlier in the season.

I'm one of these posters

I hope he does have a good game against the shite, but I can't see it.

 

[Rosco]

Just heard the news on twitter from some teenager in Pakistan, he died from the knee injury

RIP Lucas. YNWA

(Terrible news if true)

 

[Fabio]

Just heard the news on twitter from some teenager in Pakistan, he died from the knee injury

RIP Lucas. YNWA

(Terrible news if true)

DEFINITELY need to buy a cm now

 

[Hansern]

Just heard the news on twitter from some teenager in Pakistan, he died from the knee injury

RIP Lucas. YNWA

(Terrible news if true)

Does he think Suarez is innocent though? Thats more important.

 

[mark1975]

I don't subscribe to the Gerrard hate at all. A lot of posters (no one in particular) have been consistently targeting him in the match threads. He has the odd sloppy moment in games but he isn't a liability or warrants dropping. That's a bit OTT in my book.

I hope he has a decent derby, he was below par at Goodison, earlier in the season.

There's only a bit of hate from those who are relatively detached from what most fans feel about him and what he's done for the club. That said, he's been the subject of criticism and discussion, not without reason. First off, I've said for ages and ages (and disagreed with Rurik many a time) that he cannot play that deeper role very well. whether alone or in a two, he's not disciplined enough. He's played as an attacker for most of his career, his natural game is to wander and look for the ball. A holding player keeps his positions and intercepts, when we haven't got the ball he's the one going looking for it, chasing people down (unsuccessfully these days) and it leaves gaping holes all over the place.

As for Lucas, anyone who says we didn't lack him or someone in that role on Saturday HAS got an agenda, and I'm not exactly Lucas' number one fan, but clearly in this set up where we play three attackers who are more or less left to do what they do, it's pretty much imperative that we have two disciplined players holding the fort in the middle of the pitch, ensuring that when teams break against us, we don't leave ourselves wide open.

Brendan has got alot of work to do on this and the defense. Last season at home against Arsenal, we were torn apart through midfield, it's happened regularly this season too, we afford teams far too much space through the centre. And the defense plays so wide at times, their positioning on the break is too easy to exploit, it's not necessarily the centre backs, it's the positioning of the fullbacks, particularly when the two we've got offer very little protection. For example, under Rafa, we always had a fullback who would took into the centre and act as a third centre half, it compresses the space when on the back foot and gives you an extra body in there. We tried this with Johnson in the second half, and his natural inkling was to still get forward, while everytime someone got at us on his side, he showed again that he constantly fails to get tight enough to players.

As Ryan said, it's tough to crucify Gerrard for it, though I don't in any shape or form see him as suited to that role, it's clearly not working and rarely has. Brendan needs to earn his dosh and have a rethink about how we set up without the ball, because for all his wonderful philosophy about possession being the key and for all our lovely attacking flair, when we don't have the ball we look vulnerable. You know you're in trouble when your hearts in your mouth every time your opponent picks the ball up on the edge of their box.

 

[ILD]

I'm one of these posters

I hope he does have a good game against the shite, but I can't see it.

Yep you and Macca for example are usually very vocal about Gerrard in the match threads but there was no need for me to name posters in my original post as it's not just ye. A lot of the forum seems to be wielding an axe over Gerrard's head.

I do want him in the team, once the formation is correct. Not just to suit him but to suit the team as a whole. I hated how we were set up at the Emirates earlier in the season and then again at home to Villa. We really need two new full backs. It's ridiculous how bad they are at the moment. Giving them the ball surrenders possession.

 

[StevieM]

So Gerrard needs someone else beside him to sit in front of the back line.

Henderson could fulfil that roll, with Allen or Coutinho slotting in further forward.

 

[Fabio]

I do want him in the team, once the formation is correct. Not just to suit him but to suit the team as a whole. .

This is my issue. I don't think it's possible to get that balance right, primarily because our midfield is told to press continually, and Gerrard can't do that any more.

He doesn't have the legs

I honestly believe we're sacrificing midfield stability as long as he's playing.

 

[gkmacca]

Yep you and Macca for example are usually very vocal about Gerrard in the match threads but there was no need for me to name posters in my original post as it's not just ye. A lot of the forum seems to be wielding an axe over Gerrard's head.

I do want him in the team, once the formation is correct. Not just to suit him but to suit the team as a whole. I hated how we were set up at the Emirates earlier in the season and then again at home to Villa. We really need two new full backs. It's ridiculous how bad they are at the moment. Giving them the ball surrenders possession.

If you look in the match thread you'll find I criticised him when he was poor and praised him when he improved. Sorry that this spoils your attempt to depict a rational, unsentimental response as some kind of crazed betrayal, but that's the inconvenient truth.

 

[mark1975]

So Gerrard needs someone else beside him to sit in front of the back line.

Henderson could fulfil that roll, with Allen or Coutinho slotting in further forward.

I don't think he works in the role either with someone or on his own. If he's alongside someone, they only end up isolated. He should play behind the strikers or at worst, wide right delivering balls.

 

[Ryan]

I can understand the need to try to explain set-ups and formations but too often I think there's a psychological need on behalf of the writer to bring order where there's chaos. Attempting to coach players to maintain discipline within a 'system' when their every instinct is to concentrate on their own performance is very difficult and becomes almost impossible when fatigue and/or emotions are a feature. In your example of Silva, I doubt he sees it as playing between the lines. I think he's just playing his natural game. So too are the rest of his team mates and they go on to win most of their matches because of their ability rather than adherence to a formation.

I know what you're trying to say but I can't for a second agree with it. It's simply not true.

You spend your entire life on a training ground being taught how to play in systems and formations. The only time your 'natural instincts' take over are the odd occasion when you've got the ball and sense a moment of freedom to do something different.

Even the worlds best players are constantly thinking formation and team.

 

[mark1975]

If you look in the match thread you'll find I criticised him when he was poor and praised him when he improved. Sorry that this spoils your attempt to depict a rational, unsentimental response as some kind of crazed betrayal, but that's the inconvenient truth.

I didn't think that's what he was getting at Macca, I don't think yourself or Fabio would do anything but just be honest, it's pretty clear there's no agenda, but there is with some, I'm not having a go at Modo, but the Alonso passing stats thread last week prompted such thoughts.

He's been a tremendous servant to us, but we're shooting ourselves in the foot trying to accommodate him just because of who he is. He's infinitely more talented than the rest of our midfield, but truth be told we looked alot more disciplined and balanced with Allen, Lucas and Henderson.

 

[ILD]

If you look in the match thread you'll find I criticised him when he was poor and praised him when he improved. Sorry that this spoils your attempt to depict a rational, unsentimental response as some kind of crazed betrayal, but that's the inconvenient truth.

Damn. I can't believe my attempt to depict a rational, unsentimental response as some kind of crazed betrayal has been spoiled. You are so dramatic at times Macca. You weren't accused of any crazy betrayal, either was @Fabio

I have a feeling you will need to get the last word in so for that reason i'm out.

 

[Fabio]

I didn't think that's what he was getting at Macca, I don't think yourself or Fabio would do anything but just be honest, it's pretty clear there's no agenda, but there is with some, I'm not having a go at Modo, but the Alonso passing stats thread last week prompted such thoughts.

He's been a tremendous servant to us, but we're shooting ourselves in the foot trying to accommodate him just because of who he is. He's infinitely more talented than the rest of our midfield, but truth be told we looked alot more disciplined and balanced with Allen, Lucas and Henderson.

Yeah I never took @ILD to be having a dig, he's a good sort.

Gerrard improved immeasurably in the second half against Villa, however he was still trying to be the one man band, forcing the play with ridiculous passes, when a simpler effort would have been more productive.

Either he thinks his team mates are better than they are, or he is still trying to be the top dog with his flicks and audacious passing attempts.

I'm not convinced his ego is taking Suarez' success well, considering he has very little to do with it.

At least with Torres, he WAS the serial assister. Now, it's others.

Perhaps he knows himself that he's not got a place in the xi and he's trying too much.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah I never took @ILD to be having a dig, he's a good sort.

Gerrard improved immeasurably in the second half against Villa, however he was still trying to be the one man band, forcing the play with ridiculous passes, when a simpler effort would have been more productive.

Either he thinks his team mates are better than they are, or he is still trying to be the top dog with his flicks and audacious passing attempts.

I'm not convinced his ego is taking Suarez' success well, considering he has very little to do with it.

At least with Torres, he WAS the serial assister. Now, it's others.

Perhaps he knows himself that he's not got a place in the xi and he's trying too much.

There were a couple of moments when he put his foot on the ball and played a relatively more obvious 15 yard pass into space for Sterling or Suarez to run into, exactly what he could and should be doing in that role behind the strikers. If he could learn to limit his game and preserve energy by pulling strings like that, we and he would be so much better off, particularly with Coutinho being out of sorts.

 

[ILD]

I didn't think that's what he was getting at Macca .

Correct.

 

[Fabio]

There were a couple of moments when he put his foot on the ball and played a relatively more obvious 15 yard pass into space for Sterling or Suarez to run into, exactly what he could and should be doing in that role behind the strikers. If he could learn to limit his game and preserve energy by pulling strings like that, we and he would be so much better off, particularly with Coutinho being out of sorts.

Can we afford to have a player "limiting his energy" in our set up?

 

[ILD]

I'm not convinced his ego is taking Suarez' success well, considering he has very little to do with it.

Not so sure about that Fabio. Gerrard is quick to tell the press Luis is one of the best players in the world and the best he has played with. There is a lot of love there.

Gerrard has surely racked up a lot of assists for Suarez and seems to relish playing with him.

 

[ILD]

Perhaps he knows himself that he's not got a place in the xi and he's trying too much.

Sometimes he is accused of trying too much and then other times too little. I think he needs to find a balance for the good of the team. His decison making must be altered to suit the position he is playing.

 

[Fabio]

Not so sure about that Fabio. Gerrard is quick to tell the press Luis is one of the best players in the world and the best he has played with. There is a lot of love there.

Gerrard has surely racked up a lot of assists for Suarez and seems to relish playing with him.

It's one thing saying things to the press and another thinking things.

When I think of an assist, I always think of the pass 2/3 touches before a goal.

It's rare Suarez scores goals like that. Normally he does all the hard work himself. So that's what I mean by Gerrard assists. Most seem to come from set pieces now (bizarrely)

 

[gkmacca]

I don't think he works in the role either with someone or on his own. If he's alongside someone, they only end up isolated. He should play behind the strikers or at worst, wide right delivering balls.

I still think what he lacks is precision in his role. I mentioned the Pirlo role (Italy version) ages ago, and it's interesting that Rodgers now alludes to it with this 'new' idea for Gerrard. I do think that can work, although certainly not at the moment when the whole of the midfield is unsettled and Gerrard doesn't quite seem to grasp the fundamentals of it. But the way he played in the second half, in a more familiar role but more energetically than he's been for quite a while, was so good it seems a waste, even at this stage, to use him deeper. I agree with you in terms of the best uses of him for the team as it is. But wherever he plays he's clever enough to excel so long as he concentrates on that one specific role - he (and his more nostalgic fans) needs to shake off that Beckhamesque sense of licence to keep reverting to the old 'anything goes' Captain Fantastic idea and stick doggedly to the task in hand.

 

[Fabio]

Sometimes he is accused of trying too much and then other times too little. I think he needs to find a balance for the good of the team. His decison making must be altered to suit the position he is playing.

I'd agree, but you can't spend your career playing a certain way, and then having to change to a new way.

The injury seems to have forced this on him too, so it's not like he's had a grace period of 2 years of adapting with his body.

People mention other players who adapted their game when they got older, but they were relying on underlying talents they already had.

Gerrards talents were passing, explosiveness, shooting. The injury seems to have ruled out shooting and explosiveness. Question is, what underlying talents does he have? Composure? Strength?

Lampard never relied on explosiveness, so he still manages to drift in to positions and score (as his sinews aren't made of candy floss) and he knows he's got a solid defence to cover up his slow trek back to the centre circle when possession is lost.

We don't have a good defence, and we play at such a frenetic speed in attack, Gerrard COULDN'T get up and down quick enough.

Some times its best to put the dog down before it starts Shitting all over the carpet.

 

[gkmacca]

Correct.

Well seeing as I've not said anything different to your own views about Gerrard it seemed forced to make a distinction. But it doesn't bother me much I can assure you.

 

[mark1975]

Can we afford to have a player "limiting his energy" in our set up?

there's both sides of it though, he's running around looking for the ball and exerting energy trying to do too much offensively. When he limited himself on Saturday, fleetingly, he looked much better for it.

 

[mark1975]

I still think what he lacks is precision in his role. I mentioned the Pirlo role (Italy version) ages ago, and it's interesting that Rodgers now alludes to it with this 'new' idea for Gerrard. I do think that can work, although certainly not at the moment when the whole of the midfield is unsettled and Gerrard doesn't quite seem to grasp the fundamentals of it. But the way he played in the second half, in a more familiar role but more energetically than he's been for quite a while, was so good it seems a waste, even at this stage, to use him deeper. I agree with you in terms of the best uses of him for the team as it is. But wherever he plays he's clever enough to excel so long as he concentrates on that one specific role - he (and his more nostalgic fans) needs to shake off that Beckhamesque sense of licence to keep reverting to the old 'anything goes' Captain Fantastic idea and stick doggedly to the task in hand.

I agree to a degree, it just seems a rather fruitless exercise for us and him, to be refining his role in the team at this stage, when he's spent the best part of 10 years now roaming between the lines with license to do pretty much what he wants. Ultimately it's going to take time and some degree of indulgence, something we can't really afford ourselves. If we're looking at longerterm, we should be trying to rethink how the team will shape up to last the course. It'd be more productive to have him used more sparingly in a role that he excels/excelled in.

 

[Fabio]

there's both sides of it though, he's running around looking for the ball and exerting energy trying to do too much offensively. When he limited himself on Saturday, fleetingly, he looked much better for it.

He did, but that was after 45 minutes of being a sloppy passenger.

We can't afford to spend half the game a man down so the Gerrard can then have a go (which ultimately didn't help us at the weekend)

 

[mark1975]

He did, but that was after 45 minutes of being a sloppy passenger.

We can't afford to spend half the game a man down so the Gerrard can then have a go (which ultimately didn't help us at the weekend)

But the 45 minutes was in a role that looks alien to him and where he looked completely, not just slightly, out of his depth. If he'd have been set up that way to start with, who knows. It's a two fold issue, we need to put him back where he belongs and nurture Coutinho a bit, but Gerrard needs to rein in his inkling to do "everything".

 

[Fabio]

But the 45 minutes was in a role that looks alien to him and where he looked completely, not just slightly, out of his depth. If he'd have been set up that way to start with, who knows. It's a two fold issue, we need to put him back where he belongs and nurture Coutinho a bit, but Gerrard needs to reign in his inkling to do "everything".

I honestly don't think he can rein it in.

I kind of think that's why Rodgers stuck him there to begin with

 

[Ossi]

Now is the time to get his replacement and not just a stop gap solution. We're fighting it out for the 4th spot and it seems he's out for the season. We needed to replace him before this and now we need to replace him urgently. Splash the cash to get the right player.