Is Rodgers making the same mistake?

[keniget]

What's the deal with playing Allen at the tip of the midfield triangle? Is that where he played for Swansea?

It reminds me of watching Sahin looking uncomfortable in that position making up a rather unbalanced midfield this season.

I don't understand the reluctance to try Gerrard there. Is there some physical reason that we're unaware of - like I don't know, having to make repeated sprints - because he's certainly not running any less deeper in midfield according to stats. Maybe Rodgers reckons Allen and Lucas is too weak a midfield pairing in which case, why did he buy Allen?

The only other reason that I can think of is that he thinks Gerrard doesn't have the guile or whatever to play that position in his team but then that doesn't match up with trying to sign Henrikh for his runs from deep etc. - Gerrard was perfecting that shit when making it big was just a dream for Henrikh.

Either way, I don't think Allen quite looks at home there despite looking decent against pub teams in pre-season.

 

[Rafiagra]

Allen is too slow on the ball to play there.

Move Coutinho in there and put Sterling or Ibe on the wing.

 

[keniget]

The problem I feel is that we need do need someone who can put his foot on the ball and dictate play in midfield - Gerrard isn't that man and neither is Lucas. We kinda needed Rodgers to stick or twist with Allen and decide whether he wants him to be that guy but it doesn't seem as though that's happened.

I wonder if we'll see another midfielder come in (looks unlikely now) or whether this is it for the season. If it is, I'll be pretty disappointed but will still be expected for Rodgers to get it right tactically. He made mistakes last season with the midfield and it will be fairly unforgivable to repeat them again this year.

 

[dmishra]

I think Rodgers is struggling to decide whether to play the normal triangle of a 4-2-3-1 or the inverted triangle of a 4-3-3.

The result is we're playing a horrible mix of both. Gerrard's someone who's played in a 4-2-3-1 all his life (which allows for, and even requires, showcasing of more individual ability), whereas Allen's probably more comfortable in a 4-3-3 (which is a tighter-knit and a more team-oriented midfield).

Lucas as the DM is just ordinary.

It's a bad mix, and something we'll see all season. I'm very disappointed that Rodgers has done nothing to fix it because I think it's central to how we'll play.

 

[Dahuge]

It is an easy fix drop allen and play coutinho in a 4231.

 

[Piedro]

No chance of that until at least October, he will give Allen at least a month to prove he's not cut out for it.

 

[Rafiagra]

Coutinho has to play through the middle. If Rodgers can't see that now and sacrifices it for Allen, it'll be a nail in his coffin.

 

[keniget]

Let's not turn this into an Allen bashing thread!

No thoughts on Gerrard's position in the side?

 

[Hansern]

Depends on who we bring in. I think our best bet is 4-2-3-1 at the moment.
Hopefully we'll bring another quality attacker.

 

[Modo]

Henderson and Allen both look very ordinary today and none of them should be played in that offensive role in the middle.

Gerrard also looked a yard off pace.

Like I've said before, our only creative outlet from midfield seems to be Coutinho and he's proving to be a menace for the opposition. But what if they focus on stopping him? What then?
Hence why we need another creative midfielder/winger or whatever.

 

[Hansern]

Macherano could be leaving Barca this summer, I'd sign him in a heartbeat.

 

[Modo]

Macherano could be leaving Barca this summer, I'd sign him in a heartbeat.

He's better than Lucas but we have other priorities.

 

[Judge Jules]

No use pursuing those if the midfield remains too weak defensively to hold its end up. Masher is infinitely better than Lucas at the defensive stuff, and having him back in there taking care of business would free some of the other midfielders of most of their defensive responsibilities.

Sign sign sign.

 

[Buddha]

Haven't Napoli had a 19m bid (or something) turned down for Masher already?

 

[juniormember]

As if Mascherano would come to Liverpool.

 

[Mystic]

Considering how he left, fuck right off.

 

[mark1975]

I have absolutely no worries about Joe Allen.


He's average, like Lucas. We need a commanding midfielder and we need to put Coutinho in the hole. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Rafiagra]

One thing that pissed me off today was Henderson coming on wide left. What the hell was the point in that?

We either stick with 4231. Coutinho is always in the middle of the 3 with Gerrard covering if nec. Then the 2 are normally Gerrard and Lucas interchangeable with Allen and Henderson.

Alternatively, we go 4312 with Coutinho in the hole behind Sturridge and Aspas/Suarez.

The width will have to come from the fullbacks which is the worry with that shape.

 

[ILD]

Rodgers will give Allen playing time and I presume Henderson will lose out on minutes because of it. I'm not sure what to do with Allen really. I really rate him as a player but i'm not sure if he compliments the midfielders we have at our disposal. Can someone outline how Swansea used to set out their midfield with Joe in the side? Would people prefer if Allen dropped a little deeper and Gerrard was pushed a bit more forward?

I do like the idea of Coutinho in a central position, dropping deep, picking up the ball and constantly moving.

 

[Ryan]

What's the deal with playing Allen at the tip of the midfield triangle? Is that where he played for Swansea?

It reminds me of watching Şahin looking uncomfortable in that position making up a rather unbalanced midfield this season.

I don't understand the reluctance to try Gerrard there. Is there some physical reason that we're unaware of - like I don't know, having to make repeated sprints - because he's certainly not running any less deeper in midfield according to stats. Maybe Rodgers reckons Allen and Lucas is too weak a midfield pairing in which case, why did he buy Allen?

The only other reason that I can think of is that he thinks Gerrard doesn't have the guile or whatever to play that position in his team but then that doesn't match up with trying to sign Henrikh for his runs from deep etc. - Gerrard was perfecting that shit when making it big was just a dream for Henrikh.

Either way, I don't think Allen quite looks at home there despite looking decent against pub teams in pre-season.

An interesting question actually Ken.

My issue with the midfield 3 is that the most advanced of the 3 (in Rodgers' system, not midfield 3's in general) is too far away from the other two, especially Gerrard. For some reason, Gerrard plays deep alongside Lucas. Maybe Rodgers is trying to replicate the Alonso-Khedira thing, but Real bring their wide two into the middle earlier than we do which means Modric (or whomever's playing at the tip of that 3 has got close support). In our case, Allen, and latterly Sahin are left rather isolated. So we end up with Coutinho and Downing quite wide, Gerrard and Lucas deep, and then Allen on his own in the most congested part of the ground. Everytime he receives it he has 2 or 3 opposing players around him, and has to move it quickly. now Allen's touch is good, his technique is great, but he hasn't time to find a close teammate, so it invariably ends up being shuffled sideways or back. The one he wants to play is the one around the corner to Suarez/Sturridge but he's congested out of it.

Second problem is that Gerrard is not a midfield playmaker. I know this is going to enrage the Gerrardites (of which I'm one) but he's never been great at dictating tempo. He plays far too many pointless sweeping long balls, and not enough continual probing short ones. No one tells Gerrard what to do, and we don't have anyone better for the role so he stays there. I'd love a Carrick or a Prilo on that role. We'd be a far far better side.

Going by Carra's comments in that other thread though, we're gonna stick with that midfield 3 it seems. I think we'll be ok at home, cos Gerrard tends to push forward a touch more and we as a team see more of the ball anyway, but away from home when Gerrard practically stands alongside Lucas for 90 mins, and wants to do everything himself - I see a problem. Allen's gonna be isolated, and the system will look shit. We're gonna have to rely on Sturridge to run the channels, get picked out by a 30 metre pass, and hopefully he holds onto it. Either that or we buy a quality wideman who can move the ball 40 metres up the ground on his own.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Hopefully there's a point in there somewhere.

 

[juniormember]

We look way better when Coutinho plays as the furthest forward in the middle, which to me suggests that Coutinho's great and Allen is not, at least in that position.
God I hope he doesn't persist with Allen there. Makes no sense. Can't get away from a congested area via skills, can't thread those ridiculous through balls that Coutinho can, can't score from 30 yards, not very good at scoring from 5 yards.

 

[Ryan]

We look way better when Coutinho plays as the furthest forward in the middle, which to me suggests that Coutinho's great and Allen is not, at least in that position.
God I hope he doesn't persist with Allen there. Makes no sense. Can't get away from a congested area via skills, can't thread those ridiculous through balls that Coutinho can, can't score from 30 yards, not very good at scoring from 5 yards.

Nope.

Countinho only gets that space in the '10' area because he can drift in from wide and thus doesn't have a designated opponent, unless the full-back comes across with him.

I'd keep him on the left and allow him to roam. It's how Madrid deployed Ronaldo and Spurs with Bale, and they get maximum effect out of it.

Start him there and he's have less space, time, etc.

 

[juniormember]

Nope.

Countinho only gets that space in the '10' area because he can drift in from wide and thus doesn't have a designated opponent, unless the full-back comes across with him.

I'd keep him on the left and allow him to roam. It's how Madrid deployed Ronaldo and Spurs with Bale, and they get maximum effect out of it.

Start him there and he's have less space, time, etc.

But he's nowhere near as good as those two or many other wide players for that matter, and never will be. What I mean by that is that he will inevitably be involved out wide like the two players you mentioned no matter how much he comes inside. I'd rather have players like him and Silva playing in the middle, going wherever they please. He'd also be allowed a higher position at all times in the middle with two midfielders and two centre backs behind him, while on the left he's required to help out Enrique at all times.
We've seen what he can do when played in the middle in an advanced role. Likewise Allen.

 

[Gary25]

An interesting question actually Ken.

My issue with the midfield 3 is that the most advanced of the 3 (in Rodgers' system, not midfield 3's in general) is too far away from the other two, especially Gerrard. For some reason, Gerrard plays deep alongside Lucas. Maybe Rodgers is trying to replicate the Alonso-Khedira thing, but Real bring their wide two into the middle earlier than we do which means Modric (or whomever's playing at the tip of that 3 has got close support). In our case, Allen, and latterly Şahin are left rather isolated. So we end up with Coutinho and Downing quite wide, Gerrard and Lucas deep, and then Allen on his own in the most congested part of the ground. Everytime he receives it he has 2 or 3 opposing players around him, and has to move it quickly. now Allen's touch is good, his technique is great, but he hasn't time to find a close teammate, so it invariably ends up being shuffled sideways or back. The one he wants to play is the one around the corner to Suarez/Sturridge but he's congested out of it.

Second problem is that Gerrard is not a midfield playmaker. I know this is going to enrage the Gerrardites (of which I'm one) but he's never been great at dictating tempo. He plays far too many pointless sweeping long balls, and not enough continual probing short ones. No one tells Gerrard what to do, and we don't have anyone better for the role so he stays there. I'd love a Carrick or a Prilo on that role. We'd be a far far better side.

Going by Carra's comments in that other thread though, we're gonna stick with that midfield 3 it seems. I think we'll be ok at home, cos Gerrard tends to push forward a touch more and we as a team see more of the ball anyway, but away from home when Gerrard practically stands alongside Lucas for 90 mins, and wants to do everything himself - I see a problem. Allen's gonna be isolated, and the system will look shit. We're gonna have to rely on Sturridge to run the channels, get picked out by a 30 metre pass, and hopefully he holds onto it. Either that or we buy a quality wideman who can move the ball 40 metres up the ground on his own.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Hopefully there's a point in there somewhere.

A midfield 3 of Lucas, Gerrard and Allen is a bit fucking boring though.

It's all a little predictable especially at home against teams that 'park the bus' I don't think there'd be such a problem with it if Stevie G was the attacking force he once was. It doesn't do the likes of Allen and Henderson any favours when the onus is on them to do damage in the final third...it"s not really their game.

 

[Ryan]

But he's nowhere near as good as those two or many other wide players for that matter, and never will be. What I mean by that is that he will inevitably be involved out wide like the two players you mentioned no matter how much he comes inside. I'd rather have players like him and Silva playing in the middle, going wherever they please. He'd also be allowed a higher position at all times in the middle with two midfielders and two centre backs behind him, while on the left he's required to help out Enrique at all times.
We've seen what he can do when played in the middle in an advanced role. Likewise Allen.

The advanced midfielder of midfield 3 is not a 'number 10' by the way. So by advocating playing Coutinho in Allen's current role, you're advocating playing him further away from goal. Not sure why you'd do that.

 

[juniormember]

The advanced midfielder of midfield 3 is not a 'number 10' by the way. So by advocating playing Coutinho in Allen's current role, you're advocating playing him further away from goal. Not sure why you'd do that.

Because he flourishes in that role, as seen during parts of last season as well as this pre-season. Because we have no one better in that role. I don't think you're saying Allen's better there, or I hope not.

 

[Gary25]

The advanced midfielder of midfield 3 is not a 'number 10' by the way. So by advocating playing Coutinho in Allen's current role, you're advocating playing him further away from goal. Not sure why you'd do that.

It's not really playing him away from goal. Surely the most advanced of 3 midfielders has the license to bomb forward and get in the box?

Likes of Gerrard, Lampard etc haven't struggled to create and scoring playing such a role over the years.

 

[Ryan]

Because he flourishes in that role, as seen during parts of last season as well as this pre-season. Because we have no one better in that role. I don't think you're saying Allen's better there, or I hope not.

I'm not saying Allen's better or worse, I'm just saying putting Coutinho in that role would inhibit him. It's a midfield role. It takes him further away from goal, puts him into a more congested area, and requires a more disciplined approach.

 

[Squiggles]

The 10 exists in the 4-2-3-1, but not in the 4-3-3 system Rodgers is playing. If the more advanced midfielder in the 4-3-3 was played as a number 10 you would be fucked because then you're basically only left with 2 in midfield when the ball is lost.

Only Kevin Keagan would be promoting that shit.

 

[Ryan]

The 10 exists in the 4-2-3-1, but not in the 4-3-3 system Rodgers is playing.

Precisely what I've been saying.