Ming has more assists for us than Downing this season. Same as Henderson

[Woland]

Not bad considering Ming played for less than half an hour.

 

[Modo]

Aquilani has 6 assists in 12 seria A games for Milan

Adam has 6 assists in 24 premier league games.

 

[Woland]

I bet Cole has a few in France too.

But more than the 40m quid's worth of replacements over the season in the same team ... IN HALF AN HOUR.

 

[Rosco]

has Aqua only played 12 games ?

Are Milan sending him back to us ?

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48666.msg1481965#msg1481965 date=1329081923]
has Aqua only played 12 games ?

Are Milan sending him back to us ?
[/quote]
15 games all in all.

And to answer you second question, hopefully.

[quote author=Woland link=topic=48666.msg1481963#msg1481963 date=1329081808]
I bet Cole has a few in France too.

But more than the 40m quid's worth of replacements over the season in the same team ... IN HALF AN HOUR.
[/quote][quote author=Woland link=topic=48666.msg1481963#msg1481963 date=1329081808]
I bet Cole has a few in France too.

But more than the 40m quid's worth of replacements over the season in the same team ... IN HALF AN HOUR.
[/quote]
I know it's pretty dire. At least Hendo has an excuse.

 

[Woland]

He's shit?

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=48666.msg1481974#msg1481974 date=1329083060]
He's shit?
[/quote]
Was thinking that he's young....

 

[Oncy]

As if its not bad enough what a bunch of useless wankers our players are in real life, theyve made playing fifa shit too on account of being shite on that too. And even when they score or do something good, its simply not believable and therefore annoying.
They ruin everything.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48666.msg1481984#msg1481984 date=1329084299]
As if its not bad enough what a bunch of useless wankers our players are in real life, theyve made playing fifa shit too on account of being shite on that too. And even when they score or do something good, its simply not believable and therefore annoying.
They ruin everything.
[/quote]


Hahaha.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48666.msg1481984#msg1481984 date=1329084299]
As if its not bad enough what a bunch of useless wankers our players are in real life, theyve made playing fifa shit too on account of being shite on that too. And even when they score or do something good, its simply not believable and therefore annoying.
They ruin everything.
[/quote]

LOL, can say the same about PES.

 

[Ryan]

1) Downing: a waste of money

Manchester United and Liverpool both raised eyebrows by splashing out on wingers from Aston Villa last summer. Ashley Young started life at United promisingly enough before a loss of form and injury curtailed his progress at Old Trafford; against Chelsea last week he was probably the worst player on the pitch and there was no place for him in the squad against Liverpool on Saturday. With Antonio Valencia cementing his status as the best winger in England and Ryan Giggs still in defiance of time and logic, it is a luxury United can afford – unlike Liverpool.

Liverpool have made their fair share of baffling decisions over the past few weeks and months but spending £20m to bring Stewart Downing to Anfield must surely rank as Kenny Dalglish's biggest mistake in the transfer market. Some will point to the £35m spent on Andy Carroll, others to the £16m on Jordan Henderson, yet they are both young and, while they were almost certainly overpriced – Liverpool falling prey to the English Tax – they were bought not only for what they can do but for what they may offer the club in the future. While Carroll hardly merits being the eighth most expensive player of all time and will almost certainly never justify his price tag, the memory of the panic he spread in opposition defences when he was at Newcastle United means Liverpool cannot give up on him yet.

This argument cannot be used in Downing's favour. We have known what he can do since 2003. Plenty of leading managers have watched and passed judgment without feeling there is a Downing-shaped hole in their side, and that is why no big club bothered moving for him before last summer. He does not belong at Liverpool, he is a mid-table player and his constant presence in England squads says more about the state of them than it does about him. He has no change of pace, no tricks or swerving runs to get supporters on their feet and, this season, no goals or assists in the league: to put it bluntly, this is the sort of signing that loses a manager his job.

The biggest charge that could be made against Downing's display against United was that in a game where Liverpool could not carry any passengers he hid. When he brought down Rafael da Silva, earning himself a booking in the first half, it was a reminder he was on the pitch; similarly when Craig Bellamy, who should have started instead, replaced him after 61 minutes of ineptitude. When Rafael Benítez was in charge of Liverpool, a lack of funds frustrated his attempts to sign a top-class winger. Dalglish had the funds. He bought Downing. JS

 

[Farkmaster]

Well that's an obvious and brutal summation.

 

[Ryan]

Aye, but it's essentially the same as what a few of us on here said at the time of purchase. It was a fucking hideous signing from day one.

 

[Farkmaster]

The thing that really riled me at the time were people who were excited we were spending money. Because that showed intent.

It's a real statement they said.

Argh.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=48666.msg1482449#msg1482449 date=1329198834]
The thing that really riled me at the time were people who were excited we were spending money. Because that showed intent.

It's a real statement they said.

Argh.
[/quote]

My favourite is "In Kenny we trust".

I'd trust John W Henry and his 5 minutes of 'soccer' expertise with future transfers ahead of Dalglish at this point.

 

[Farkmaster]

The weird thing to me is Commoli was brought in to make sure this didn't happen. I can accept someone making a mistake, but I can't see how two people looked at this and thought it made any kind of sense.

 

[Mistadobalina]

'arry was right all along, Commoli is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot. The creepy looking bastard! Get the useless tit off the payroll!

 

[Modo]

Yeah lets lay all the blame on the frenshman.

 

[Rosco]

Commoli does become useless when you grant the manager the power to decide who we sign. It's a bad set up.

And statement of intent is probably one of the most used and least understood phrases in football for me, when people say that phrase they're saying they want to see the club making headlines for paying way over the odds for a player just because we can. It's stupidity in action.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=48666.msg1482445#msg1482445 date=1329197104]
Well that's an obvious and brutal summation.
[/quote]

It is.

Of course an equally obvious and brutal summation would be to say that a philosophy of "In Kenny we trust" has about a thousand times more merit than the ludicrous philosophy many on here clung to for years with "In Rafa we trust".

 

[Ryan]

How Wiz?

 

[Fabio]

Because kenny did well 20 years ago I'd imagine

 

[Modo]

In Rafa I trust, still.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48666.msg1482444#msg1482444 date=1329195143]

1) Downing: a waste of money

Manchester United and Liverpool both raised eyebrows by splashing out on wingers from Aston Villa last summer. Ashley Young started life at United promisingly enough before a loss of form and injury curtailed his progress at Old Trafford; against Chelsea last week he was probably the worst player on the pitch and there was no place for him in the squad against Liverpool on Saturday. With Antonio Valencia cementing his status as the best winger in England and Ryan Giggs still in defiance of time and logic, it is a luxury United can afford – unlike Liverpool.

Liverpool have made their fair share of baffling decisions over the past few weeks and months but spending £20m to bring Stewart Downing to Anfield must surely rank as Kenny Dalglish's biggest mistake in the transfer market. Some will point to the £35m spent on Andy Carroll, others to the £16m on Jordan Henderson, yet they are both young and, while they were almost certainly overpriced – Liverpool falling prey to the English Tax – they were bought not only for what they can do but for what they may offer the club in the future. While Carroll hardly merits being the eighth most expensive player of all time and will almost certainly never justify his price tag, the memory of the panic he spread in opposition defences when he was at Newcastle United means Liverpool cannot give up on him yet.

This argument cannot be used in Downing's favour. We have known what he can do since 2003. Plenty of leading managers have watched and passed judgment without feeling there is a Downing-shaped hole in their side, and that is why no big club bothered moving for him before last summer. He does not belong at Liverpool, he is a mid-table player and his constant presence in England squads says more about the state of them than it does about him. He has no change of pace, no tricks or swerving runs to get supporters on their feet and, this season, no goals or assists in the league: to put it bluntly, this is the sort of signing that loses a manager his job.

The biggest charge that could be made against Downing's display against United was that in a game where Liverpool could not carry any passengers he hid. When he brought down Rafael da Silva, earning himself a booking in the first half, it was a reminder he was on the pitch; similarly when Craig Bellamy, who should have started instead, replaced him after 61 minutes of ineptitude. When Rafael Benítez was in charge of Liverpool, a lack of funds frustrated his attempts to sign a top-class winger. Dalglish had the funds. He bought Downing. JS

[/quote]

harsh, but not a lot to argue with there.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48666.msg1482517#msg1482517 date=1329214335]
How Wiz?
[/quote]

Ryan, I know you came to have a great deal of affection and respect for Rafa so this can't really end well.

That said, Kenny's done it before in this league; knows Liverpool better than anyone else on the planet right now; is determined to have us playing football in a manner that has more chance of success in this league. I know that last one is partially just my opinion but it's backed up by the football played by the champions in most of the last 20 years. Chelsea would be the main exception to that rule for me and they were/are an exception to a lot of rules.

 

[StevieM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48666.msg1482467#msg1482467 date=1329206537]
Commoli does become useless when you grant the manager the power to decide who we sign. It's a bad set up.
[/quote]

Shocking setup... Ferguson, Wenger & Redknapp are making such as pigs arse out of the transfer market..

The soooner we follow Chelsea's method of lettting someone else, other than the manager, decide transfers, the better.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=48666.msg1482883#msg1482883 date=1329273906]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48666.msg1482517#msg1482517 date=1329214335]
How Wiz?
[/quote]

Ryan, I know you came to have a great deal of affection and respect for Rafa so this can't really end well.

That said, Kenny's done it before in this league; knows Liverpool better than anyone else on the planet right now; is determined to have us playing football in a manner that has more chance of success in this league. I know that last one is partially just my opinion but it's backed up by the football played by the champions in most of the last 20 years. Chelsea would be the main exception to that rule for me and they were/are an exception to a lot of rules.
[/quote]

I'm able to judge Rafa impartially, but that's a different story.

As for each of your points above, well nothing he's done with us in over 12 months backs that up. He's bought badly, we've not moved forwards, and he has us playing a brand of football that shows no evidence to me of being orchestrated. I just don't understand what style he's going with. We look disjointed going forward, we're far too reliant on one or two better players, we're tactically deficient when it comes to breaking teams down, we look unbalanced across midfield for the most part, and I just don't see anything in what he's done to give me hope for change.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Ming has more assists for us than Downing this season. Same as Henderson

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48666.msg1#msg1 date=1329278972]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=48666.msg1482883#msg1482883 date=1329273906]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48666.msg1482517#msg1482517 date=1329214335]
How Wiz?
[/quote]

Ryan, I know you came to have a great deal of affection and respect for Rafa so this can't really end well.

That said, Kenny's done it before in this league; knows Liverpool better than anyone else on the planet right now; is determined to have us playing football in a manner that has more chance of success in this league. I know that last one is partially just my opinion but it's backed up by the football played by the champions in most of the last 20 years. Chelsea would be the main exception to that rule for me and they were/are an exception to a lot of rules.
[/quote]

I'm able to judge Rafa impartially, but that's a different story.

As for each of your points above, well nothing he's done with us in over 12 months backs that up. He's bought badly, we've not moved forwards, and he has us playing a brand of football that shows no evidence to me of being orchestrated. I just don't understand what style he's going with. We look disjointed going forward, we're far too reliant on one or two better players, we're tactically deficient when it comes to breaking teams down, we look unbalanced across midfield for the most part, and I just don't see anything in what he's done to give me hope for change.
[/quote]

^^^

 

[jexykrodic]

It should be said that we are in the Carling Cup Final, involved later in the FA Cup competition than last year; and have more League points than we did at this time last year.

Our results show an improvement.

As for the future, we may now see both Suarez and Gerrard play regularly which ought to further improve our results further.

As regards the thread OP, we have improved results despite losing Ming. It's just a fact.

 

[Farkmaster]

I don't understand why Rafa has been cast into this discussion, especially when my pet peeve was a generalized one about a happiness with just spending, rather than spending well. I have great respect for Rafa, and even more for Kenny, given their contributions to the club. I genuinely think that they both did everything because they believed it was in the best interests of the club, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the criticism both of them deserve. They are very very different managers.

Kenny could catastrophically fail at the club and I'd never treat him like Hodgson, and I've not been happy to see the back of any manager other than Hodgson in my lifetime. I genuinely seem to have affection for most liverpool managers. I liked Houllier, Benitez, and of course I love Kenny. I thought it a romantic but wrong decision for him to be hired way back when, but then that romance was proven to be totally correct last year.

I simply cannot fathom how reckless we've been allowed to be, after this being a point of failure year after year, and after changing our management around to target this very issue with the introduction of Commoli. I can see some sense of strategy at play in the profile of who we purchased, their wages, their age etc, I can see that it's a longer term strategy, but our purchases this year aren't paying off now, and I don't see how they'll pay off long term.

I don't just think these players aren't good now, and will mature, I think they are fundamentally limited footballers. I don't see massive potential in any one of them. I'll accept that managers get that wrong all the time, but the reason Downing is such an unbelievably poor decision is because he is a player who doesn't fit any of the grand strategy, and would have been worth purchasing at a premium if, and only if, he made an instant significant impact. He will not have significant resale value, so he is being bought to make a difference, and he's not a difference maker. And it's all so predictable, because he's a known commodity.

We played better attacking football under Rafa once he had his own team, a manager more defined by organization, rigidity, and pressing, but it took some time to get there, and even less time to dismantle. Like Rafa before him, the best things about our current team in it's early days are the ones left by the previous manager. Unlike Rafa, Kenny's initial purchases have been mostly awful. Kenny deserves time, but it's not because of his recent performance. I'm OK with that, but I'm not OK with us not doing a complete overhaul of our scouting and purchasing decisions, and whatever the process was that arrived at the purchases we made last summer just shouldn't be allowed to happen again, because we can't afford it.