Lets Sell Masher ASAP

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37118.msg987847#msg987847 date=1258121419]

Spidey has just never liked Mascher.. [/quote]

I think that is a little harsh

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37118.msg987891#msg987891 date=1258125286]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37118.msg987847#msg987847 date=1258121419]

Spidey has just never liked Mascher.. [/quote]

I think that is a little harsh
[/quote]

Hmmm.. it's fair to say you have an eye tinted with 'attack, attack, attack' when looking at players, Neil. Your musings over fullbacks, Agger, Babel etc prove that so. It's not a bad thing, but you obviously have a bit of Keegan-ish mentality to football. 😉

So what use is a defensive midfielder who offers practically fuckall going forward eh?

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37118.msg987843#msg987843 date=1258121199]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37118.msg987797#msg987797 date=1258114994]
I sometimes wonder if you even read other peoples posts before replying.

[/quote]

+1.

In regard to Gerrard's level dropping depending on his partner.. well, England and Frank Lampard come to mind.
[/quote]

Not an applicable comparison. Lampards a top player.

 

[Judge Jules]

Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.

 

[LarryHagman]

Mascherano is a good player at what he does. When you put him in a midfield with the likes of Alonso and Gerrard the things that he can't do aren't apparent. When those factors are removed, Masch is exposed for his frailties. I don't blame the bloke, he's a DM, full stop.
He's absolutely no Hamann nor is he a player to build a team around.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987901#msg987901 date=1258126324]

Mascherano is a good player at what he does. When you put him in a midfield with the likes of Alonso and Gerrard the things that he can't do aren't apparent. When those factors are removed, Masch is exposed for his frailties. I don't blame the bloke, he's a DM, full stop.
He's absolutely no Hamann nor is he a player to build a team around.

[/quote]

DM's never are though, are they? You have a back bone to the side, and/or a pivotal player (like Gerrard).

You're quite right though, his weaknesses are exposed without the right partner, ditto alot of players throughout the side and throughout football.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987898#msg987898 date=1258126192]
Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.
[/quote]

Defensive ability? Lampard scores 20 odd goals every season from centre midfield. Pick some other monkey to defend.
I refuse to believe that a decent coach couldn't get them both firing for England. Just coz some have failed doesn't make it impossible.
Mourinho would have done it for Chelsea had Gerrard gone there.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987907#msg987907 date=1258126804]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987898#msg987898 date=1258126192]
Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.
[/quote]

Defensive ability? Lampard scores 20 odd goals every season from centre midfield. Pick some other monkey to defend.
I refuse to believe that a decent coach couldn't get them both firing for England. Just coz some have failed doesn't make it impossible.
Mourinho would have done it for Chelsea had Gerrard gone there.

[/quote]

The problem is you also have Rooney, Capello has done well getting all three to work though, fair play. Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are all essentially trying to play in the same area of the pitch, two of them is doable, but three?? You can see why it's been a problem, albeit a luxurious one.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37118.msg987909#msg987909 date=1258126945]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987907#msg987907 date=1258126804]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987898#msg987898 date=1258126192]
Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.
[/quote]

Defensive ability? Lampard scores 20 odd goals every season from centre midfield. Pick some other monkey to defend.
I refuse to believe that a decent coach couldn't get them both firing for England. Just coz some have failed doesn't make it impossible.
Mourinho would have done it for Chelsea had Gerrard gone there.

[/quote]

The problem is you also have Rooney, Capello has done well getting all three to work though, fair play. Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are all essentially trying to play in the same area of the pitch, two of them is doable, but three?? You can see why it's been a problem, albeit a luxurious one.
[/quote]

Crouch/Bent/Defoe

Rooney Lampard Gerrard

Barry Carrick

 

[Judge Jules]

"Some other monkey to defend"? Even when the "monkey" is Stevie G? Even at international level? We'll have to agree to differ.

Had Stevie gone to the Chavs, Mourinho would have had to do the same with him there as international managers have for England in order to play him and Lampard together - either that or play Stevie behind the striker as we've been doing. Great players don't invariably gel. Robbie and Owen never managed it up front for us, for example.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987896#msg987896 date=1258125984]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37118.msg987843#msg987843 date=1258121199]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37118.msg987797#msg987797 date=1258114994]
I sometimes wonder if you even read other peoples posts before replying.

[/quote]

+1.

In regard to Gerrard's level dropping depending on his partner.. well, England and Frank Lampard come to mind.
[/quote]

Not an applicable comparison. Lampards a top player.

[/quote]

Yeah, I know.. which makes it all the more the baffling.

You need good partnerships in teams and especially in the central positions. One player can affect another despite their individual abilities. It's foolhardy to suggest that you can stick Gerrard beside anyone and he'd excel as Spidey seemed to be implying.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987913#msg987913 date=1258127481]
"Some other monkey to defend"? Even when the "monkey" is Stevie G? Even at international level?
[/quote]

Never advocated in any post that Gerrard should be the one to defend for Lampard, only that Lampard has talents that should be utilised as well.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987911#msg987911 date=1258127326]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37118.msg987909#msg987909 date=1258126945]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987907#msg987907 date=1258126804]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987898#msg987898 date=1258126192]
Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.
[/quote]

Defensive ability? Lampard scores 20 odd goals every season from centre midfield. Pick some other monkey to defend.
I refuse to believe that a decent coach couldn't get them both firing for England. Just coz some have failed doesn't make it impossible.
Mourinho would have done it for Chelsea had Gerrard gone there.

[/quote]

The problem is you also have Rooney, Capello has done well getting all three to work though, fair play. Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are all essentially trying to play in the same area of the pitch, two of them is doable, but three?? You can see why it's been a problem, albeit a luxurious one.
[/quote]

Crouch/Bent/Defoe

Rooney Lampard Gerrard

Barry Carrick

[/quote]

Is it that simple? So essentially you'd be playing Gerrard right, and Rooney left, which ever way you try to dress it up. Even with the fullbacks providing the width, it's still sacrificing two of the three players out of their best roles.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37118.msg987894#msg987894 date=1258125916]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37118.msg987891#msg987891 date=1258125286]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37118.msg987847#msg987847 date=1258121419]

Spidey has just never liked Mascher.. [/quote]

I think that is a little harsh
[/quote]

Hmmm.. it's fair to say you have an eye tinted with 'attack, attack, attack' when looking at players, Neil. Your musings over fullbacks, Agger, Babel etc prove that so. It's not a bad thing, but you obviously have a bit of Keegan-ish mentality to football. 😉

So what use is a defensive midfielder who offers practically fuckall going forward eh?
[/quote]

I think it's fairer to say I like players that are very good on the ball and make the very hard look very easy (so fuck knows why I like babel, go figure). I don't dislike masher in the same way I didn't dislike hamman I just thought (and still think) that unlike the attack options improve then central midfielders need to contribute to the attack.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987918#msg987918 date=1258127835]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987913#msg987913 date=1258127481]
"Some other monkey to defend"? Even when the "monkey" is Stevie G? Even at international level?
[/quote]

Never advocated in any post that Gerrard should be the one to defend for Lampard, only that Lampard has talents that should be utilised as well.

[/quote]

I think Lampard and Gerrard could work, a bit like Lampard and Essien/Ballack does IF England had Drogba upfront on his own as the target man.

Rooney on the left wing and Gerrard on the right wing are square pegs in round holes.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37118.msg987922#msg987922 date=1258128009]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987911#msg987911 date=1258127326]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37118.msg987909#msg987909 date=1258126945]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37118.msg987907#msg987907 date=1258126804]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37118.msg987898#msg987898 date=1258126192]
Disagree. Despite Lampard's quality going forward, his defensive ability is limited at international level and Stevie has definitely had to curb his attacking instincts when he's played alongside the guy in centre midfield.
[/quote]

Defensive ability? Lampard scores 20 odd goals every season from centre midfield. Pick some other monkey to defend.
I refuse to believe that a decent coach couldn't get them both firing for England. Just coz some have failed doesn't make it impossible.
Mourinho would have done it for Chelsea had Gerrard gone there.

[/quote]

The problem is you also have Rooney, Capello has done well getting all three to work though, fair play. Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are all essentially trying to play in the same area of the pitch, two of them is doable, but three?? You can see why it's been a problem, albeit a luxurious one.
[/quote]

Crouch/Bent/Defoe

Rooney Lampard Gerrard

Barry Carrick

[/quote]

Is it that simple? So essentially you'd be playing Gerrard right, and Rooney left, which ever way you try to dress it up. Even with the fullbacks providing the width, it's still sacrificing two of the three players out of their best roles.
[/quote]

Its not that simple no. But Rooney is proven in that role, like he is in every role, Gerrard scores wherever he plays and Lampard produces but lacks the versatility of the other 2.
I'd chance it. Failing that you're introducing dross like Kieran Richardson and Lennon (OK not dross).

Beat that team and we move on from there.

 

[Fox]

is the defensive midfielder who is not a great passer and not responsible for assists or attacking play let alone goals a new thing?

Are they not just Centre halves who were too short ??? ;D

If you go back over the best teams in the last 15 years in the PL look at their so called defensive CM

Petit, Vierra, Keane, Gilberto, even fucking Ince contributed going forward (I know Makele ruins my argument a bit)


Now we have Essien, Fletcher, Diaby ETC and we have Masher who is great at his thing but his thing is not enought for a £20+ million footballer IMO