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Is it because I is English?

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Asbo

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Spare us from Strictly Come Racism in this Terry conundrum
By Martin Samuel

Last updated at 10:17 AM on 2nd February 2012

John Terry. Why doesn’t he just sod off?

It would be so much more convenient that way.
So much easier for everybody if he would just accept that the verdict of the kangaroo courts is in, without the tiresome necessity of due legal process in a proper one.

Judged unfit to captain England in the grand court of Twitter, messageboards and radio vox pops, why doesn’t Terry just slink away and accept that nobody has the patience for a fair trial these days?


We want to vote now. We want to press the red button to interact. We have decided the England captain is the weakest link. Goodbye.

What a nuisance he is, with his talk of innocence and his stubborn refusal to stand down. He should just resign, safe in the knowledge nobody would read this as an admission of guilt. This is a civilised society, after all. We don’t presume. We don’t pre-judge. And we don’t involve ourselves in idle gossip. Ask Gary Speed’s family.
No, nobody would read anything into the news that the England captain had quit his job pending a trial for a racially aggravated public order offence. They wouldn’t speculate that new evidence had emerged making his position untenable. No smoke without fire, they certainly wouldn’t say.
July 9. How hearts must have sunk at the FA when they were tossed that little hand grenade from Court One. The District Judge, the aptly named Howard Riddle, presented Terry’s masters with a conundrum of fiendish complexity by delaying his case until after the European Championship.


Interest: There was a big media presence at Westminster Magistrates Court

Terry could lift England’s first trophy since 1966 as the hero of a nation on July 1, and be branded a racist in Westminster Magistrates’ Court less than two weeks later; a horrible prospect.
The alternative, however, is to strip England’s captain of the greatest professional honour — for the second time in his career — on the back of something he might have done. Maybe. We’re looking into it.
We are told our multi-racial society will not accept such a prominent public figure being accused of racism; well then, our multi-racial society needs to grow up.
Accusations, we can handle. Accusations are dealt with fairly, then judgement is passed if guilty. To start passing sentence — and to lose the England captaincy is a sentence — on the basis of as yet unproven accusations is fundamentally unjust.
The FA have been dealt a devilish hand, but it is not their fault. They had almost completed their investigation into what passed between Terry and Anton Ferdinand when high-handedly ordered to wait for the police investigation.

In charge: Terry will keep hold of the England captaincy for Euro 2012

This moved at glacial speed, so an incident that took place in autumn 2011 will now be resolved in summer 2012.
There is the possibility that the FA will convene their own hearing before then — the ICC did against Pakistan’s spot- fixing cricketers before their criminal trial — but what if it found Terry had no case to answer? Instantly, the FA would be accused of expediency, of potentially sabotaging a police case for their own ends.
They could not win, unless they found Terry guilty and sated the baying mob.
Jason Roberts, who is busily playing up an average career in football — he is currently on loan at Reading from Blackburn Rovers — into a more rewarding one in the media, instantly announced via Twitter that Terry should not go to the European Championship at all, let alone as captain.
‘Believe me, the dressing room will be toxic,’ he said. Yet why should we believe him? Why should we believe anybody, without evidence?

Roberts knows no more about the politics of the England dressing room — he has won 22 caps, but for Grenada — than we do about the events at Loftus Road on October 23.


We need hard facts, not vague implorations. We are going to find out the truth of this matter, but sometime after July 9. Sorry if that is vexatious.

Sorry if that does not suit the need for a nightly eviction. Maybe there is something on another channel that you can watch.
We have heard this all before around Terry. The dressing room was going to be toxic after the Wayne Bridge controversy, and when he was reinstated to replace Rio Ferdinand.
Now it will be poisoned again. Yet when Fabio Capello asked if any players had problems with Terry’s return as captain, he was met with silence.

When Capello asked the new young players which of the senior professionals took time out to welcome them and stayed in touch after international duty, Terry scored highly again.
The only way Capello will remove Terry is if he thinks the storm around him will adversely affect the focus of the squad. His decision will be pragmatic, not moral, because to replace Terry on moral grounds alone is to treat an accusation as proof of guilt.

And it would be convenient if that were the case. Very convenient for those with a finger on the red button.
But this is a mans career at stake, its not Strictly Come Rascism


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2095143/Martin-Samuel-John-Terry-captaincy-issue.html#ixzz1lDnzfM2d
 
It's just amazing how the media opinion contrasts between Suarez and Terry. One's scum of the earth after a FA investigation, the other is national hero despite having a criminal offence placed on him.
 
There was no FUCKING evidence in the suarez case yet you, the media, tried to hound him out...
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=48538.msg1475853#msg1475853 date=1328181540]
What did Samuel have to say about the Suarez case at the time, I wonder?
[/quote]

Oh the contrast is stark, hang on
 
whether jason roberts is right or wrong i love how he is dismissed on the fact that he's an average footballer . It's amazing how people view success on the field as meaning you are a good person who leads a good life .

I've said it before , playing well excuses everything else you do . bang a few goals in and you're a new man who's to be admired .
 
And this comes from the "Sports journalist of the year"...

Makes me sick.

my favourite sentence was:
"Terry could lift England’s first trophy since 1966 as the hero of a nation on July 1, and be branded a racist in Westminster Magistrates’ Court less than two weeks later; a horrible prospect. "

Don't you worry Mr. Samuel - neither is going to happen.
 
How very dare Jason Roberts comment on racism?!

He has no trophies or medals!

Now Kenny Dalglish, & John Barnes, they have trophies & medals to spare, so they can, oh hang on a minute. Erm....
 
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=48538.msg1475867#msg1475867 date=1328183482]
And this comes from the "Sports journalist of the year"...
[/quote]

Wouldn't read too much into that. Every year there is always about 15 journalists claiming to be the Sports journalist of the year.
 
[quote author=rubans link=topic=48538.msg1475872#msg1475872 date=1328184008]
Expected nothing less than Martin Samuel, a total bearded fat cretin.
[/quote]
 
Oh and the article can't accept comments due to legal reasons. So Samuel preaches and no one has the ability on the website to point out his total inconsistency between the cases.

Fucking twats. Maybe I'll email him direct and point out his hyprocrisy.
 
Actually, look back over the last few months. Being English gets you off a lot of things, being foreign virtually guarantees you a suspension for any offence with the FA.
 
Top Tip - Save yourself any future aggro and don't pay heed to Martin Samuel. The fat Bluto-a-like is worthless as a human never mind a journo.

Don't get me started on a Bluto v Brutus argument.
 
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=48538.msg1475854#msg1475854 date=1328181569]
It's just amazing how the media opinion contrasts between Suarez and Terry. One's scum of the earth after a FA investigation, the other is national hero despite having a criminal offence placed on him.
[/quote]
Probably because Suarez is a greasy little South American, whereas our JT is the personification of all that is right a proper with our National game, and the brave blah blah shite they usually throw at us when they talk of this Terry twat.
I couldn't agree more with Mystic here.

I usually have time for Martin Samuel's stuff, but he's talking nonsense here.
What will probably happen though is, if Terry is found to be guilty, he'll have to pay the two grand fine and the FA will decide that other convicted criminals are allowed back into employment after their time has been served, so why should Terry be denied? And will therefore serve a zero game suspension.
 
Nobody's a harsher critic of the media's selectivity on such matters than I am, but in all fairness I should report that I've had a constructive exchange of views with a member of the media just in the last couple of days on the Suarez issue.

A couple of days ago both Oliver Kay and Simon Barnes of "The Times" had a pop at us and specifically at Kenny. I e-mailed them both offering to to fill in our side of the debate and suggesting that, if they weren't interested, they should put their own house in order before judgin the fairmindedness of others. To my surprise Oliver Kay replied this morning as follows:

"Thanks for your e-mail. Sorry for the delay in replying. I am aware, I can assure you, of the detailed and specific reasons why Liverpool and many fans feel a sense of injustice over the Suarez-Evra affair. Unlike many others across the media, I recognise - and have written about - some of the complexities involved (though I still believe, as some LFC fans do, that a guuilty verdict was the right one and that the club's handling of the case was a terrible mess, not least in terms of the damage done to Suarez's hopes of a successful appeal).

I don't think you should confuse my thoughts and writings on the matter with Simon's. I said that Evra had been booed for having the temerity to report Suarez on October 15. Would you disagree with that? What would you say he was booed for? The findings? Then why the outright hostility towards Evra from day one, including the portrayal of him as a liar. I would agree that Evra's evidence was inconsistent, but he was public enemy number one at Anfield from the moment he made the complaint. That's normal enough. It would be the same anywhere.

Anyway, I'm terribly slack in replying to e-mails, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Regards"

I responded thusly:

"First of all, thank you for your reply. Frankly I didn't expect one so a reply of any kind, let alone in two days, is scarcely slack in my book and I shall make sure that fellow fans with whom I'm in touch know that you took the trouble. Secondly, thank you for inviting my thoughts. I'll be as brief as I can about them.

To take the points you raise in the order in which you raise them:

1. Given that you recognise some of the complexities involved, it's difficult to see how you can uphold the verdict. Evra was given four goes at talking the commission through the video, Suarez not a single one; Evra in his pitchside interview with French TV indicated that what Suarez had said to him was no big deal - half an hour later his manager marches him to the ref's room with a very different story; incredibly, the commission chose to accept as corroboration of Evra's testimony three widely differing version (and one "I don't remember&quot😉 from his own teammates, none of which were even close to coinciding with his; the commission's Spanish language "expert" wasn't, not in S.American Spanish anyway.

As for Evra being a liar, check out the FA's own findings about him as an unreliable witness after that incident with the groundsman at Chelsea in very similar circumstances, an important point given the commission's reliance on Evra's testimony in direct preference to that of Suarez and the character grounds on which the commission based their extraordinary decision in that respect. There is a view among some Liverpool fans that Suarez was sacrificed on the altar of the FA's desire to tweak Sepp Blatter's nose on the racism issue. I couldn't possibly comment.

2. Suarez' solicitor certainly made an awful porridge of the case on the day (though to be absolutely fair to him I don't believe there was any prior indication that he'd be facing a QC). Whether the club made a mess of things is moot. If all one's bothered about is how things look, one can argue that it did. If on the other hand one thinks justice is important, there are times when one has to stand up for principle.

Supporters do support their own, but there is a great deal more to it than that in this case. We are not all mindless oafs who simply fall into line (I know you're not saying we are, but the point bears emphasising). I myself am a Cambridge graduate (in languages, French and German in my case but I do have a little Spanish) and a qualified company secretary, so I have some legal education and experience, and I share the view of most of my fellow Liverpool fans that justice has not been done in this saga, whether in the commission or, I'm afraid, in the media. If nothing else, perhaps we can all agree to differ and leave it there.

Regards likewise and thank you again for taking the trouble to write."
 
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
 
Yep. Would be interested to know if he responds again. Please do share in such a case.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475962#msg1475962 date=1328192340]
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
[/quote]

Do you actually think this is the issue?
 
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=48538.msg1475964#msg1475964 date=1328192401]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475962#msg1475962 date=1328192340]
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
[/quote]

Do you actually think this is the issue?
[/quote]

That's the main thrust of the article.

I suppose you're trying to show us this is xenophobia in action again ?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475962#msg1475962 date=1328192340]
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
[/quote]

I dont think anyone's said that or expects that. I certainly dont. I think what people are saying is that in view of the seriousness of the charges against Terry, he should either step down or be stood down as England captain until after his court case. There seems to be a groundswell of opinion ( outside SCM) that that is what should happen.
 
If Suarez was Liverpool's captain, would everyone on here have been asking for the same?

I assume the team want to stand by the player, rightly or wrongly, until something is proven.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=48538.msg1475939#msg1475939 date=1328190392]
Nobody's a harsher critic of the media's selectivity on such matters than I am, but in all fairness I should report that I've had a constructive exchange of views with a member of the media just in the last couple of days on the Suarez issue.

A couple of days ago both Oliver Kay and Simon Barnes of "The Times" had a pop at us and specifically at Kenny. I e-mailed them both offering to to fill in our side of the debate and suggesting that, if they weren't interested, they should put their own house in order before judgin the fairmindedness of others. To my surprise Oliver Kay replied this morning as follows:

"Thanks for your e-mail. Sorry for the delay in replying. I am aware, I can assure you, of the detailed and specific reasons why Liverpool and many fans feel a sense of injustice over the Suarez-Evra affair. Unlike many others across the media, I recognise - and have written about - some of the complexities involved (though I still believe, as some LFC fans do, that a guuilty verdict was the right one and that the club's handling of the case was a terrible mess, not least in terms of the damage done to Suarez's hopes of a successful appeal).

I don't think you should confuse my thoughts and writings on the matter with Simon's. I said that Evra had been booed for having the temerity to report Suarez on October 15. Would you disagree with that? What would you say he was booed for? The findings? Then why the outright hostility towards Evra from day one, including the portrayal of him as a liar. I would agree that Evra's evidence was inconsistent, but he was public enemy number one at Anfield from the moment he made the complaint. That's normal enough. It would be the same anywhere.

Anyway, I'm terribly slack in replying to e-mails, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Regards"

I responded thusly:

"First of all, thank you for your reply. Frankly I didn't expect one so a reply of any kind, let alone in two days, is scarcely slack in my book and I shall make sure that fellow fans with whom I'm in touch know that you took the trouble. Secondly, thank you for inviting my thoughts. I'll be as brief as I can about them.

To take the points you raise in the order in which you raise them:

1. Given that you recognise some of the complexities involved, it's difficult to see how you can uphold the verdict. Evra was given four goes at talking the commission through the video, Suarez not a single one; Evra in his pitchside interview with French TV indicated that what Suarez had said to him was no big deal - half an hour later his manager marches him to the ref's room with a very different story; incredibly, the commission chose to accept as corroboration of Evra's testimony three widely differing version (and one "I don't remember&quot😉 from his own teammates, none of which were even close to coinciding with his; the commission's Spanish language "expert" wasn't, not in S.American Spanish anyway.

As for Evra being a liar, check out the FA's own findings about him as an unreliable witness after that incident with the groundsman at Chelsea in very similar circumstances, an important point given the commission's reliance on Evra's testimony in direct preference to that of Suarez and the character grounds on which the commission based their extraordinary decision in that respect. There is a view among some Liverpool fans that Suarez was sacrificed on the altar of the FA's desire to tweak Sepp Blatter's nose on the racism issue. I couldn't possibly comment.

2. Suarez' solicitor certainly made an awful porridge of the case on the day (though to be absolutely fair to him I don't believe there was any prior indication that he'd be facing a QC). Whether the club made a mess of things is moot. If all one's bothered about is how things look, one can argue that it did. If on the other hand one thinks justice is important, there are times when one has to stand up for principle.

Supporters do support their own, but there is a great deal more to it than that in this case. We are not all mindless oafs who simply fall into line (I know you're not saying we are, but the point bears emphasising). I myself am a Cambridge graduate (in languages, French and German in my case but I do have a little Spanish) and a qualified company secretary, so I have some legal education and experience, and I share the view of most of my fellow Liverpool fans that justice has not been done in this saga, whether in the commission or, I'm afraid, in the media. If nothing else, perhaps we can all agree to differ and leave it there.

Regards likewise and thank you again for taking the trouble to write."
[/quote]

Well done JJ. You might have added much more, but I appreciate you needed to keep it fairly brief. Credit to Oliver Kay for responding.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475967#msg1475967 date=1328192594]
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=48538.msg1475964#msg1475964 date=1328192401]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475962#msg1475962 date=1328192340]
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
[/quote]

Do you actually think this is the issue?
[/quote]

That's the main thrust of the article.

I suppose you're trying to show us this is xenophobia in action again ?
[/quote]

What makes you suppose I'm trying to do that?

I'm merely pointing at the difference in handling of two rather similar cases.
It looks to me like for some reason they are treated differently by the various authorities and by the media.
I have a sneaking feeling that the Terry case is being brushed under the carpet for some reason. People seem to agree that there is no balance even though they are not foreigners.

I suppose you see these two cases as being handled evenly and fairly?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48538.msg1475962#msg1475962 date=1328192340]
So you all want Terry punished before the case is decided, is that your issue ?
[/quote]

Well given the 99.5% conviction rate of the FA that's pretty much waht happened to Luis. Suarez was tried by media and by fora so where's the difference?

Will Chelsea fans be taken to task if they boo Anton Ferdinand?
 
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