Call me mad if you want...

[keniget]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=48122.msg1455741#msg1455741 date=1325642388]
We're always playing catch up. Even for 4th these days. Depressing.
[/quote]

Yeah. It's always a case of looking at the fixture list and thinking "well, if we can just pick up points here and there, we'll be right back in the mix!". We don't pick up the points though.

 

[Oncy]

I actually do think we will get 4th now.
Simply put we have been so poor at finishing teams off to this point that I think we will improve from here on in.
And Arsenal and Chelsea and Spurs have MUCH worse run ins than ours.
So im gonna say we make 4th.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455722#msg1455722 date=1325641510]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455704#msg1455704 date=1325640705]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455694#msg1455694 date=1325639951]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455690#msg1455690 date=1325639693]
I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the merits (or not) of our team after facing city, that squad cost half a BILLION to put together. if you thought we would/wouldn't start scoring then one game shouldn't change your mind either way.
[/quote]

Mate, ignore them for a second.

Gerrard, Bellamy and Maxi were on the bench.

I.e the only players who ever look like scoring for us.

Kenny fucked up.
[/quote]

devil's advocate

kuyt rather than maxi - kenny thought kuyt would provide greater protection than maxi
bellamy - we are being careful with his knees
gerrard - is just back from injury

games against city away aren't going to decide whether we qualify for CL, it's going to be games against our direct rivals for the spot (arsenal, chelsea and at a push spurs) and also teams in the middle bottom half of the table. I'm 'meh' with regards to the city game I expected nothing but I do expect a better performance in the CC with the prospect of a final in the balance.
[/quote]To be fair to Kenny, we rested our matchwinners tonight and lost but we played them on Friday (against Newcastle) and won, City played theirs today and won and didnt play them against SUnderland and lost. We both picked up 3 pts, maybe Kenny was thinking that the Newcastle game is a game we SHOULD win and wanted to ensure we got three points out of the two fixtures.
We are STILL just three points of fourth.
And we still have Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea to come to us and only United to visit.
If you look at the top 6 fixtures from now until the season end:
US - 3 home and 1 away.
ARSENAL - 4 home and 1 away.
SPURS - 1 home and 4 away.
UNITED - 1 home and 4 away.
CHELSEA - 2 homes and 3 away.
CITY - 2 home and 3 away.
Which in all fairness reflects a lot better on us and Arsenal than any of the other top teams. United in particular have played all bar one of their tough HOME games and in the second half of the season have to play Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and City AWAY.
And Spurs who have yet to play on the road at City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

So in spite of it all........
[/quote]

That maybe true mate, but City, wherever possible, usually play their best players whenever they can, and look at the competition for places they have compared to us.

We had three goal-scorers on the bench at a time when we're short of goals and our best striker is banned. There's just no way you can defend that, IMO.

Which is exactly what City should have been saying after we smashed them 0-2.

 

[Home and A Gay]

Blackburn have scored 5 more league goals than us this season.

 

[spider-Neil]

the worry is I don't see anything changing anytime soon.

city and manu pretty much have the top two sewn up
then you have spurs, chelsea, arsenal and ourselves playing for 2 places and whoever misses out will improve further to put that right.
this is a really pessimistic view but I see our reserves (in a few years time) changing the balance I can't see it happening before that unless the yanks are willing to spend another fortune in the short term.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455748#msg1455748 date=1325642654]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455722#msg1455722 date=1325641510]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455704#msg1455704 date=1325640705]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455694#msg1455694 date=1325639951]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455690#msg1455690 date=1325639693]
I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the merits (or not) of our team after facing city, that squad cost half a BILLION to put together. if you thought we would/wouldn't start scoring then one game shouldn't change your mind either way.
[/quote]

Mate, ignore them for a second.

Gerrard, Bellamy and Maxi were on the bench.

I.e the only players who ever look like scoring for us.

Kenny fucked up.
[/quote]

devil's advocate

kuyt rather than maxi - kenny thought kuyt would provide greater protection than maxi
bellamy - we are being careful with his knees
gerrard - is just back from injury

games against city away aren't going to decide whether we qualify for CL, it's going to be games against our direct rivals for the spot (arsenal, chelsea and at a push spurs) and also teams in the middle bottom half of the table. I'm 'meh' with regards to the city game I expected nothing but I do expect a better performance in the CC with the prospect of a final in the balance.
[/quote]To be fair to Kenny, we rested our matchwinners tonight and lost but we played them on Friday (against Newcastle) and won, City played theirs today and won and didnt play them against SUnderland and lost. We both picked up 3 pts, maybe Kenny was thinking that the Newcastle game is a game we SHOULD win and wanted to ensure we got three points out of the two fixtures.
We are STILL just three points of fourth.
And we still have Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea to come to us and only United to visit.
If you look at the top 6 fixtures from now until the season end:
US - 3 home and 1 away.
ARSENAL - 4 home and 1 away.
SPURS - 1 home and 4 away.
UNITED - 1 home and 4 away.
CHELSEA - 2 homes and 3 away.
CITY - 2 home and 3 away.
Which in all fairness reflects a lot better on us and Arsenal than any of the other top teams. United in particular have played all bar one of their tough HOME games and in the second half of the season have to play Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and City AWAY.
And Spurs who have yet to play on the road at City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

So in spite of it all........
[/quote]

That maybe true mate, but City, wherever possible, usually play their best players whenever they can, and look at the competition for places they have compared to us.

We had three goal-scorers on the bench at a time when we're short of goals and our best striker is banned. There's just no way you can defend that, IMO.
[/quote]Would I have done it? NO. Was I pissed off when I saw the team? YES. Did I KNOW we would lose? Youbetcha.
But as Neil has pointed out (and you KNOW it pains me to agree with him right) Bellamy may not be able to play twice in a week, Gerrard may not be right yet.
Maybe just Maybe Kenny has though to himself, fuck this game, we have cup games in the next week or so and there is certainly a rational in saying bun the hardest game in the season off and keep your powder dry for games you think you can win.
Who knows.
If we beat Oldham and Stoke and City in the semis whos to say it wasnt the right thing to do. Only time will tell I guess.

 

[Skullflower]

as a bag of spoons

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455755#msg1455755 date=1325642936]
Maybe just Maybe Kenny has though to himself, fuck this game, we have cup games in the next week or so and there is certainly a rational in saying bun the hardest game in the season off and keep your powder dry for games you think you can win.
[/quote]

I think that's exactly what happened. they (bellamy/gerrard) didn't start and came on as late subs. I think if kenny could have mailed the 3 points and saved the coach fare he would have done it. you'll see a different team in the CC game.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455755#msg1455755 date=1325642936]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455748#msg1455748 date=1325642654]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455722#msg1455722 date=1325641510]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455704#msg1455704 date=1325640705]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455694#msg1455694 date=1325639951]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455690#msg1455690 date=1325639693]
I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the merits (or not) of our team after facing city, that squad cost half a BILLION to put together. if you thought we would/wouldn't start scoring then one game shouldn't change your mind either way.
[/quote]

Mate, ignore them for a second.

Gerrard, Bellamy and Maxi were on the bench.

I.e the only players who ever look like scoring for us.

Kenny fucked up.
[/quote]

devil's advocate

kuyt rather than maxi - kenny thought kuyt would provide greater protection than maxi
bellamy - we are being careful with his knees
gerrard - is just back from injury

games against city away aren't going to decide whether we qualify for CL, it's going to be games against our direct rivals for the spot (arsenal, chelsea and at a push spurs) and also teams in the middle bottom half of the table. I'm 'meh' with regards to the city game I expected nothing but I do expect a better performance in the CC with the prospect of a final in the balance.
[/quote]To be fair to Kenny, we rested our matchwinners tonight and lost but we played them on Friday (against Newcastle) and won, City played theirs today and won and didnt play them against SUnderland and lost. We both picked up 3 pts, maybe Kenny was thinking that the Newcastle game is a game we SHOULD win and wanted to ensure we got three points out of the two fixtures.
We are STILL just three points of fourth.
And we still have Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea to come to us and only United to visit.
If you look at the top 6 fixtures from now until the season end:
US - 3 home and 1 away.
ARSENAL - 4 home and 1 away.
SPURS - 1 home and 4 away.
UNITED - 1 home and 4 away.
CHELSEA - 2 homes and 3 away.
CITY - 2 home and 3 away.
Which in all fairness reflects a lot better on us and Arsenal than any of the other top teams. United in particular have played all bar one of their tough HOME games and in the second half of the season have to play Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and City AWAY.
And Spurs who have yet to play on the road at City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

So in spite of it all........
[/quote]

That maybe true mate, but City, wherever possible, usually play their best players whenever they can, and look at the competition for places they have compared to us.

We had three goal-scorers on the bench at a time when we're short of goals and our best striker is banned. There's just no way you can defend that, IMO.
[/quote]Would I have done it? NO. Was I pissed off when I saw the team? YES. Did I KNOW we would lose? Youbetcha.
But as Neil has pointed out (and you KNOW it pains me to agree with him right) Bellamy may not be able to play twice in a week, Gerrard may not be right yet.
Maybe just Maybe Kenny has though to himself, fuck this game, we have cup games in the next week or so and there is certainly a rational in saying bun the hardest game in the season off and keep your powder dry for games you think you can win.
Who knows.
If we beat Oldham and Stoke and City in the semis whos to say it wasnt the right thing to do. Only time will tell I guess.
[/quote]

I've already said in another thread that I'm not arsed about reasons or explanations. Having all three of them on the bench, at a time when Suarez isn't playing, is nothing short of madness, IMO. You can make a case for one, maybe two at push. But three?

Not for me. Mental.

 

[keniget]

I think we need to make some rather astute signings to finish fourth. I really hope we're ready to do business this month.

This team has it's plus points but it's dysfunctional and I don't see any internal solutions that will be effective enough to help us overcome the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48122.msg1455765#msg1455765 date=1325643289]
I think we need to make some rather astute signings to finish fourth. I really hope we're ready to do business this month.

This team has it's plus points but it's dysfunctional and I don't see any internal solutions that will be effective enough to help us overcome the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea.
[/quote]Both those teams are a mess though Ken.
I think we have to admit that the Manchester Clubs and probably Spurs are light years ahead in terms of play at present. But the other London clubs are a shambles and are easily beatable.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455764#msg1455764 date=1325643239]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455755#msg1455755 date=1325642936]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455748#msg1455748 date=1325642654]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48122.msg1455722#msg1455722 date=1325641510]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455704#msg1455704 date=1325640705]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48122.msg1455694#msg1455694 date=1325639951]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1455690#msg1455690 date=1325639693]
I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the merits (or not) of our team after facing city, that squad cost half a BILLION to put together. if you thought we would/wouldn't start scoring then one game shouldn't change your mind either way.
[/quote]

Mate, ignore them for a second.

Gerrard, Bellamy and Maxi were on the bench.

I.e the only players who ever look like scoring for us.

Kenny fucked up.
[/quote]

devil's advocate

kuyt rather than maxi - kenny thought kuyt would provide greater protection than maxi
bellamy - we are being careful with his knees
gerrard - is just back from injury

games against city away aren't going to decide whether we qualify for CL, it's going to be games against our direct rivals for the spot (arsenal, chelsea and at a push spurs) and also teams in the middle bottom half of the table. I'm 'meh' with regards to the city game I expected nothing but I do expect a better performance in the CC with the prospect of a final in the balance.
[/quote]To be fair to Kenny, we rested our matchwinners tonight and lost but we played them on Friday (against Newcastle) and won, City played theirs today and won and didnt play them against SUnderland and lost. We both picked up 3 pts, maybe Kenny was thinking that the Newcastle game is a game we SHOULD win and wanted to ensure we got three points out of the two fixtures.
We are STILL just three points of fourth.
And we still have Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea to come to us and only United to visit.
If you look at the top 6 fixtures from now until the season end:
US - 3 home and 1 away.
ARSENAL - 4 home and 1 away.
SPURS - 1 home and 4 away.
UNITED - 1 home and 4 away.
CHELSEA - 2 homes and 3 away.
CITY - 2 home and 3 away.
Which in all fairness reflects a lot better on us and Arsenal than any of the other top teams. United in particular have played all bar one of their tough HOME games and in the second half of the season have to play Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and City AWAY.
And Spurs who have yet to play on the road at City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

So in spite of it all........
[/quote]

That maybe true mate, but City, wherever possible, usually play their best players whenever they can, and look at the competition for places they have compared to us.

We had three goal-scorers on the bench at a time when we're short of goals and our best striker is banned. There's just no way you can defend that, IMO.
[/quote]Would I have done it? NO. Was I pissed off when I saw the team? YES. Did I KNOW we would lose? Youbetcha.
But as Neil has pointed out (and you KNOW it pains me to agree with him right) Bellamy may not be able to play twice in a week, Gerrard may not be right yet.
Maybe just Maybe Kenny has though to himself, fuck this game, we have cup games in the next week or so and there is certainly a rational in saying bun the hardest game in the season off and keep your powder dry for games you think you can win.
Who knows.
If we beat Oldham and Stoke and City in the semis whos to say it wasnt the right thing to do. Only time will tell I guess.
[/quote]

I've already said in another thread that I'm not arsed about reasons or explanations. Having all three of them on the bench, at a time when Suarez isn't playing, is nothing short of madness, IMO. You can make a case for one, maybe two at push. But three?

Not for me. Mental.
[/quote]

no point in putting all your eggs in one basket and causing an injury that will hurt far more than 3 points against the best team in the land.
there was a case for maxi starting (if you consider him one of our best players) but it's better to start gerrard from the bench with him just back from injury and bellamy started the game at the weekend.

 

[Home and A Gay]

I don't think any manager would have started Gerrard tonight.
But Bellers was brought off after 70 minutes against Newcastle so I thought he would start

 

[keniget]

Arsenal and Chelsea are also inconsistent and dropping points, true. But we're still behind them. Why should that change?

Both teams have managed to hold it together in recent seasons and have not had to endure the sort of fall from grace that our club has suffered. I have more faith in one of those clubs to pull through than ours. Sad but true.

We need a couple players in Jan to stand any kind of chance in my opinion. Otherwise we'll continue to plod along trying to keep up and hoping that something will just click. It never does though.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48122.msg1455778#msg1455778 date=1325644132]
Arsenal and Chelsea are also inconsistent and dropping points, true. But we're still behind them. Why should that change?

Both teams have managed to hold it together in recent seasons and have not had to endure the sort of fall from grace that our club has suffered. I have more faith in one of those clubs to pull through than ours. Sad but true.

We need a couple players in Jan to stand any kind of chance in my opinion. Otherwise we'll continue to plod along trying to keep up and hoping that something will just click. It never does though.
[/quote]

any purchase in jan should be seen with a view to the long term rather than a short term fix (unless it's a loan).

 

[keniget]

Our long-term planning don't look too hot right about now.

Bellamy was the very definition of a short-term transfer and you could make a very good case for him being our best transfer.

 

[SummerOnions]

Enrique's been pretty good.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48122.msg1455778#msg1455778 date=1325644132]
Arsenal and Chelsea are also inconsistent and dropping points, true. But we're still behind them. Why should that change?

Both teams have managed to hold it together in recent seasons and have not had to endure the sort of fall from grace that our club has suffered. I have more faith in one of those clubs to pull through than ours. Sad but true.

We need a couple players in Jan to stand any kind of chance in my opinion. Otherwise we'll continue to plod along trying to keep up and hoping that something will just click. It never does though.[/quote]

Yup. We need a couple of short-term transfers to just get us over the hump first - grand long-term plans take time but we cannot lose sight of short-term markers. It's terribly hard to sell people (current players and future targets) on the long-term prospects if we're not even demonstrating the ability to meet short-term targets.

 

[Y1]

Can we call someone mad now?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1454419#msg1454419 date=1325544475]
Losing Suarez for a few games may mean we score more goals.

[/quote]

and it begins...

 

[FoxForceFive]

heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Call me mad if you want...

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1#msg1 date=1326024914]
heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.
[/quote]

Nah I could understand it jon.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1459537#msg1459537 date=1326024914]
heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.
[/quote]

I agree totally foxy, not for reasons you gave in your original post but I definately think we'll go on a goal scoring spree (man city games aside). the main reason being we'll mix up our approach play and become a little more direct and in carroll (yes, carroll) gerrard and bellamy we'll become more of a goal threat.

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1459543#msg1459543 date=1326025155]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1459537#msg1459537 date=1326024914]
heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.
[/quote]

I agree totally foxy, not for reasons you gave in your original post but I definately think we'll go on a goal scoring spree (man city games aside). the main reason being we'll mix up our approach play and become a little more direct and in carroll (yes, carroll) gerrard and bellamy we'll become more of a goal threat.
[/quote]

Well that is kinda my reasoning neil, so much of our play goes through Suarez that it stops us mixing up our play enough.

That said, if the Citeh game is anything to go by, if you take Bellamy & Gerrard out of the equation, the other attackers cant capitalise on their chances anyway, which is where my theory falls on it's arse.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1459537#msg1459537 date=1326024914]
heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.
[/quote]8 goals in 3 games since he has been out.
😉

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1459551#msg1459551 date=1326025448]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48122.msg1459543#msg1459543 date=1326025155]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48122.msg1459537#msg1459537 date=1326024914]
heheheh.

Fuck me I'm gonna get some shit for this.

I still (probably misguidedly) think we'll get more goals in the games Suarez doesn't play than when he has.

I'm quite clearly mad, & could give a shitload of reasons myself to counteract my own argument, but there you go, this is just my theory.
[/quote]

I agree totally foxy, not for reasons you gave in your original post but I definately think we'll go on a goal scoring spree (man city games aside). the main reason being we'll mix up our approach play and become a little more direct and in carroll (yes, carroll) gerrard and bellamy we'll become more of a goal threat.
[/quote]

Well that is kinda my reasoning neil, so much of our play goes through Suarez that it stops us mixing up our play enough.

That said, if the Citeh game is anything to go by, if you take Bellamy & Gerrard out of the equation, the other attackers cant capitalise on their chances anyway, which is where my theory falls on it's arse.
[/quote]

I see it like this;

you have goal threats like maxi, bellamy and gerrard, with carroll on the pitch the defenders will get sucked towards him and if carroll wins the first ball then the goal threat will latch onto the second ball. I don't expect us to completely change our approach play but I definately expect we'll start to mix it up more.

when carroll scored I was happy because the burst in confidence would mean he would look for the ball more and then he missed that sitter. I'm hoping he still puts himself in dangerous areas and not be put off by the potential to miss.

I see us going on a scoring run.