sack Rafa

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033707#msg1033707 date=1263475249]
What WILL it take before you believe it's time for Rafa to go then rebel? Answer that question please
[/quote]

I think he's going to ignore this one. I had asked him it before.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033712#msg1033712 date=1263475558]

I'm not saying Benitez is blameless but he needs resources and the owners are to blame for that.

[/quote]

How much did we pay for Robbie Keane again ? What a success that turned out to be

 

[mark1975]

Re: sack the cunt.

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033712#msg1033712 date=1263475558]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38437.msg1033708#msg1033708 date=1263475267]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033702#msg1033702 date=1263475126]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033691#msg1033691 date=1263474627]
Rebel. Who the fuck said we had any right to the CL ? I didn't . As you've alluded to CL money is needed to sustain the Yanks business model. Rafa isn't going to deliver that this year. And who the fuck said we should appoint "any old manager? Stop reading things that aren't there and twisting them to justify the argument that exists in your mind. The sheer affrontery of YOU calling anyone deluded is completely laughable.
[/quote]

if they sacked Benitez they would have to recruit someone, who do you think they're likely to recruit considering Klinsmann was their last choice and anyone they did recruit would want a 3-5 year contract to insulate themselves from kneejerk bellends at a high pressure job with no resources when things go wrong, which is very costly and which we can't afford anyway plus there's a good chance whoever it is wont have the record Benitez has - poor season notwithstanding - which means they could conceivably do worse.

As I said and I continue to say careful what you wish for.


[/quote]

Rebel, as stern a backer as I've been of late in regards to Rafa, you make it sound (like alot of people on here) as though it's all down to the owners. One of the biggest impacts on our lack of resources has been Rafa's own stupidity in the transfer market.
[/quote]

I'm not saying Benitez is blameless but he needs resources and the owners are to blame for that. we badly need a 2nd senior striker and have for year, the board have not provided it so David Ngog is the scapegoat. instead of getting one some think we can lose £15m sacking Benitez? come on now, this is totally and completely illogical


[/quote]

Arghghghg.. but the board have provided money, at least in terms of money recouped from sales and Rafa has chose not to buy a striker. Is it the owners fault he chose to spend the best part of £20m on a right back?

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033703#msg1033703 date=1263475138]
You talk as if we sack managers on a weekly basis. Again you're assuming we'd appoint a shit and/or unproven manager rebel. How about assuming we'd replace him with a proven manager ? What happens to your Rafa justification then ?

It's not about "putting a brave face on". It's about putting the problems we have right. He's completely failing to get the best out of what he has - backing or not. I agree the Yanks haven't backed him appropriately at times but it does not excuse not getting the most out of what he has
[/quote]

Hang on a second sunny, we have previous ACTUAL evidence when the kneejerkers were last out that the owners were days away from appointing Klinsmann. We also know with this board that to expect the worst should be the default position. We will not get a better caliber manager than Benitez, however poorly he is doing, it would be a stupid move for the sake of it

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

To me, it's not down to the fact that he has made mistakes in transfers, some of them big ones. That happens. Everyones human. I've been reasonably happy with them overall, but of course they could have been better.

It's down to the fact that we're out of every competition, and it doesn't look like we're going to finish in the top four. And it doesn't look like Rafa knows what to do to turn it around. We need some fresh ideas, I think the players are bored with Rafa and he doesn't seem to be able to get them motivated. He's always had the problem of getting them motivated for the not so important games, now it's happening for the important ones too. It's time for a change. And yes, we could well go backwards with another manager, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. Every change involves a certain element of risk, but at this stage I dont feel we have any other choice. We need to start looking at alternatives, of course if there is no one else available, we'll struggle on...

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033709#msg1033709 date=1263475328]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38437.msg1033699#msg1033699 date=1263475051]
Any old managers?
I like it when Rebel assumes the yanks would hire someone like Curbishley.

Mourinho, Rijkard are not that old you know.

Rebel and KHL defending our manager after that debacle.
6 years in charge and worst season.

Not sacking Rafa would be another mistake on both football and business perspective from the board.
They should never have given him such a good contract in the first place but I'd rather lose £15M now
Keeping Rafa could cost us £50M next season
[/quote]

Losing £15m would be a disaster and if you believe Mourinho would take a massive paycut and come and work for two broke yanks then more fool you. The actions you and your fellow kneejerkers are advocating could sink the club

[/quote]

Your constant use of the word "kneejerkers" is annoying.

He'd have been sacked at any other club bar ours now given that HIS group of players bear no resemblance to a top level side this season. Our performances and results have been shocking and the only thing that can be taken from them is that they are actually getting worse instead of improving. Yes players have to take their share of the blame but he's paid to get the most he can out of them and he is getting precisely nothing.

We're a mess on the field and the buck stops with him

 

[Jürgen4PM]

A top 4 finish or a Uefa cup win should be enough keep Rafa in his job.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1033715#msg1033715 date=1263475671]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033707#msg1033707 date=1263475249]
What WILL it take before you believe it's time for Rafa to go then rebel? Answer that question please
[/quote]

I think he's going to ignore this one. I had asked him it before.
[/quote]


[size=14pt]OI, REBEL, ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]

 

[rebel23]

Re: sack the cunt.

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38437.msg1033717#msg1033717 date=1263475692]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033712#msg1033712 date=1263475558]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38437.msg1033708#msg1033708 date=1263475267]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033702#msg1033702 date=1263475126]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033691#msg1033691 date=1263474627]
Rebel. Who the fuck said we had any right to the CL ? I didn't . As you've alluded to CL money is needed to sustain the Yanks business model. Rafa isn't going to deliver that this year. And who the fuck said we should appoint "any old manager? Stop reading things that aren't there and twisting them to justify the argument that exists in your mind. The sheer affrontery of YOU calling anyone deluded is completely laughable.
[/quote]

if they sacked Benitez they would have to recruit someone, who do you think they're likely to recruit considering Klinsmann was their last choice and anyone they did recruit would want a 3-5 year contract to insulate themselves from kneejerk bellends at a high pressure job with no resources when things go wrong, which is very costly and which we can't afford anyway plus there's a good chance whoever it is wont have the record Benitez has - poor season notwithstanding - which means they could conceivably do worse.

As I said and I continue to say careful what you wish for.


[/quote]

Rebel, as stern a backer as I've been of late in regards to Rafa, you make it sound (like alot of people on here) as though it's all down to the owners. One of the biggest impacts on our lack of resources has been Rafa's own stupidity in the transfer market.
[/quote]

I'm not saying Benitez is blameless but he needs resources and the owners are to blame for that. we badly need a 2nd senior striker and have for year, the board have not provided it so David Ngog is the scapegoat. instead of getting one some think we can lose £15m sacking Benitez? come on now, this is totally and completely illogical


[/quote]

Arghghghg.. but the board have provided money, at least in terms of money recouped from sales and Rafa has chose not to buy a striker. Is it the owners fault he chose to spend the best part of £20m on a right back?
[/quote]

think about it logically, why did we spend that money on a right back? it's because we need English players for the UEFA quota - ANY MANAGER WOULD NEED TO LOOK FOR AND RECRUIT SOME OF THE BEST ENGLISH PLAYERS HE CAN - so we were as a club thinking of the long term, we also happened to need a right back because the one we had, who had done a fantastic job and who Benitez signed wanted out

that is the circumstances that led to that signing, completely logical

He wasn't given a net amount to get a striker either when Keane left last Jan (or that amount to reinvest), in the summer or stupidly during this window. MAYBE he will get it in the summer who the hell knows

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033723#msg1033723 date=1263476099]
A top 4 finish or a Ufea cup win should be enough keep Rafa in his job.
[/quote]

I think it ALL comes down to a top four finish mate.
Even if we win the tin pot and finish 5th, he'll be offski.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033724#msg1033724 date=1263476103]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1033715#msg1033715 date=1263475671]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033707#msg1033707 date=1263475249]
What WILL it take before you believe it's time for Rafa to go then rebel? Answer that question please
[/quote]

I think he's going to ignore this one. I had asked him it before.
[/quote]


[size=14pt]OI, REBEL, ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]
[/quote]

I'd continually evaluate but right now I dont think he should be sacked regardless because i consider him a high caliber manager who despite the myths has made some good signings and if given time and resources will make changes and improve things because unlike some of his peers he does tend to put his mistakes right but he can only do that if given backing

 

[grjt]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033719#msg1033719 date=1263475930]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033703#msg1033703 date=1263475138]
You talk as if we sack managers on a weekly basis. Again you're assuming we'd appoint a shit and/or unproven manager rebel. How about assuming we'd replace him with a proven manager ? What happens to your Rafa justification then ?

It's not about "putting a brave face on". It's about putting the problems we have right. He's completely failing to get the best out of what he has - backing or not. I agree the Yanks haven't backed him appropriately at times but it does not excuse not getting the most out of what he has
[/quote]

Hang on a second sunny, we have previous ACTUAL evidence when the kneejerkers were last out that the owners were days away from appointing Klinsmann. We also know with this board that to expect the worst should be the default position. We will not get a better caliber manager than Benitez, however poorly he is doing, it would be a stupid move for the sake of it

[/quote]

Your myopia is genuinely startling.

Just using your logic for a second with regards to Mourinho - who was he talking to when he said he wanted to come "home" in the summer then?

It certainly wasnt Arsenal, ManU aint pushing Ginsoak out in the forseeable future, and he already knew that Man City would be employing a big name in the near future. He gets paid 7m a year, so he's taking a paycut whoever he decides to go to

 

[Richey]

I'd be tempted to get rid of him even if we do finish 4th to be honest. It would only be papering over the cracks.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033729#msg1033729 date=1263476356]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033724#msg1033724 date=1263476103]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1033715#msg1033715 date=1263475671]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033707#msg1033707 date=1263475249]
What WILL it take before you believe it's time for Rafa to go then rebel? Answer that question please
[/quote]

I think he's going to ignore this one. I had asked him it before.
[/quote]


[size=14pt]OI, REBEL, ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]
[/quote]

I'd continually evaluate but right now I dont think he should be sacked regardless because i consider him a high caliber manager who despite the myths has made some good signings and if given time and resources will make changes and improve things because unlike some of his peers he does tend to put his mistakes right but he can only do that if given backing

[/quote]


WHAT WOULD HE HAVE TO DO TO GET FIRED?

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1033731#msg1033731 date=1263476386]
I'd be tempted to get rid of him even if we do finish 4th to be honest. It would only be papering over the cracks.
[/quote]

Aye, what will it prove.

Strong finish, end up 4th, people looking forward to the following season with renewed optimism. All falls apart after a couple of months. Despair

Sound familiar?

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1033731#msg1033731 date=1263476386]
I'd be tempted to get rid of him even if we do finish 4th to be honest. It would only be papering over the cracks.
[/quote]

I think that the game/performance last night was the nail in Rafa's coffin.
He will be kept on in the job until the summer in the hope of getting 4th (a feat I still think is possible for us) and then shown the door, with last night cited as the catalyst for the decision. It's not the 'Liverpool Way' to sack a manager mid-season.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1033721#msg1033721 date=1263476048]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033709#msg1033709 date=1263475328]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38437.msg1033699#msg1033699 date=1263475051]
Any old managers?
I like it when Rebel assumes the yanks would hire someone like Curbishley.

Mourinho, Rijkard are not that old you know.

Rebel and KHL defending our manager after that debacle.
6 years in charge and worst season.

Not sacking Rafa would be another mistake on both football and business perspective from the board.
They should never have given him such a good contract in the first place but I'd rather lose £15M now
Keeping Rafa could cost us £50M next season
[/quote]

Losing £15m would be a disaster and if you believe Mourinho would take a massive paycut and come and work for two broke yanks then more fool you. The actions you and your fellow kneejerkers are advocating could sink the club

[/quote]

Your constant use of the word "kneejerkers" is annoying.

He'd have been sacked at any other club bar ours now given that HIS group of players bear no resemblance to a top level side this season. Our performances and results have been shocking and the only thing that can be taken from them is that they are actually getting worse instead of improving. Yes players have to take their share of the blame but he's paid to get the most he can out of them and he is getting precisely nothing.

We're a mess on the field and the buck stops with him
[/quote]

THIS SEASON, THIS SEASON

Last season we were title contenders, so what is evaluations based on just a season worth? You have to look at what;s best for the club and the overall record of the manager, not just a result or a season in isolation. Though with the way the media are and some fans this is difficult you have to have belief in the caliber of the man, most of the managers they could appoint wouldnt last minutes in the job with the pressure and no resources so the continual sacking and hiring of managers would seriously damage us further and could see us sunk into the abyss like Newcastle, Leeds etc.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033729#msg1033729 date=1263476356]


I'd continually evaluate but right now I dont think he should be sacked regardless because i consider him a high caliber manager who despite the myths has made some good signings and if given time and resources will make changes and improve things because unlike some of his peers he does tend to put his mistakes right but he can only do that if given backing

[/quote]

Answer the question, don't skirt round it like a politician. He's had time. He's had resources. I agree he's bought some good - but he's also bought some bad. I can accept that. It happens everywhere. The point is, he cannot get the best out of what he has already - that's the main issue. Why give him more - money, time, resources when he cannot motivate the players he has already ?

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Rebel, stop all the bullshit and tell us what Rafa would have to do to get fired.
Simple question.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1033738#msg1033738 date=1263476827]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033729#msg1033729 date=1263476356]


I'd continually evaluate but right now I dont think he should be sacked regardless because i consider him a high caliber manager who despite the myths has made some good signings and if given time and resources will make changes and improve things because unlike some of his peers he does tend to put his mistakes right but he can only do that if given backing

[/quote]

Answer the question, don't skirt round it like a politician. He's had time. He's had resources. I agree he's bought some good - but he's also bought some bad. I can accept that. It happens everywhere. The point is, he cannot get the best out of what he has already - that's the main issue. Why give him more - money, time, resources when he cannot motivate the players he has already ?
[/quote]

if the players cant be motivated then he needs to root them out and they're ones who need to be sacked/replaced, replacing the manager with a lesser caliber one is not the best thing for the club

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1033731#msg1033731 date=1263476386]
I'd be tempted to get rid of him even if we do finish 4th to be honest. It would only be papering over the cracks.
[/quote]
I'm a bit torn on the issue to be honest.

4th would be less than expected but on the other hand competition probably is more fierce than ever these days with both Citeh and Spurs also spending a lot of money.

Anything but 4th and upwards and I reckon we should be looking elsewhere, but the most important thing for me is whether the players are still seemingly behind the gaffer at the end of the Season.

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033737#msg1033737 date=1263476763]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1033721#msg1033721 date=1263476048]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033709#msg1033709 date=1263475328]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38437.msg1033699#msg1033699 date=1263475051]
Any old managers?
I like it when Rebel assumes the yanks would hire someone like Curbishley.

Mourinho, Rijkard are not that old you know.

Rebel and KHL defending our manager after that debacle.
6 years in charge and worst season.

Not sacking Rafa would be another mistake on both football and business perspective from the board.
They should never have given him such a good contract in the first place but I'd rather lose £15M now
Keeping Rafa could cost us £50M next season
[/quote]

Losing £15m would be a disaster and if you believe Mourinho would take a massive paycut and come and work for two broke yanks then more fool you. The actions you and your fellow kneejerkers are advocating could sink the club

[/quote]

Your constant use of the word "kneejerkers" is annoying.

He'd have been sacked at any other club bar ours now given that HIS group of players bear no resemblance to a top level side this season. Our performances and results have been shocking and the only thing that can be taken from them is that they are actually getting worse instead of improving. Yes players have to take their share of the blame but he's paid to get the most he can out of them and he is getting precisely nothing.

We're a mess on the field and the buck stops with him
[/quote]

THIS SEASON, THIS SEASON

Last season we were title contenders, so what is evaluations based on just a season worth? You have to look at what;s best for the club and the overall record of the manager, not just a result or a season in isolation. Though with the way the media are and some fans this is difficult you have to have belief in the caliber of the man, most of the managers they could appoint wouldnt last minutes in the job with the pressure and no resources so the continual sacking and hiring of managers would seriously damage us further and could see us sunk into the abyss like Newcastle, Leeds etc.
[/quote]

Since you dont want to evaluate our performances based upon this season alone allow me to put this forward.

We've gone close to winning the league once under him which was indeed last season.

So when our league performances are evaluated over all the seasons he's been here one word comes up.... FAIL.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033727#msg1033727 date=1263476206]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033723#msg1033723 date=1263476099]
A top 4 finish or a Ufea cup win should be enough keep Rafa in his job.
[/quote]

I think it ALL comes down to a top four finish mate.
Even if we win the tin pot and finish 5th, he'll be offski.
[/quote]

Thats probably true Stu.

I still think people need to seriously consider who we're likely to end up with as a replacement though. Its all well and good shouting "Rafa out", but the viable alternatives are very limited.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033723#msg1033723 date=1263476099]
A top 4 finish or a Uefa cup win shouldn't be enough to keep Rafa in his job.
[/quote]

I amended it for you.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033740#msg1033740 date=1263476909]
Rebel, stop all the bullshit and tell us what Rafa would have to do to get fired.
Simple question.
[/quote]

he needs to show that he can turn it around and I think he will not just now but in the long term

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033741#msg1033741 date=1263477035]

if the players cant be motivated then he needs to root them out and they're ones who need to be sacked/replaced, replacing the manager with a lesser caliber one is not the best thing for the club
[/quote]

I see. So blame everyone else for it - as long as it's not him. And will you, for the love of God, stop making the immense assumption that Rafa would be replaced by a lower calibre manager.

 

[the_khl]

Top 4 and he's odds on to continue and with the players backing rightly so.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033744#msg1033744 date=1263477144]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033727#msg1033727 date=1263476206]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033723#msg1033723 date=1263476099]
A top 4 finish or a Ufea cup win should be enough keep Rafa in his job.
[/quote]

I think it ALL comes down to a top four finish mate.
Even if we win the tin pot and finish 5th, he'll be offski.
[/quote]

Thats probably true Stu.

I still think people need to seriously consider who we're likely to end up with as a replacement though. Its all well and good shouting "Rafa out", but the viable alternatives are very limited.
[/quote]

Someone who has a basic understanding of how this league works and how to motivate his team would be an improvement right now. I'd take a number of Premier League managers over Rafa. Sure, we should try to get the best replacement necessary but we shouldn't settle for mediocrity out of a fear of failure. We're failing in every department right now.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1033743#msg1033743 date=1263477115]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033737#msg1033737 date=1263476763]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1033721#msg1033721 date=1263476048]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033709#msg1033709 date=1263475328]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38437.msg1033699#msg1033699 date=1263475051]
Any old managers?
I like it when Rebel assumes the yanks would hire someone like Curbishley.

Mourinho, Rijkard are not that old you know.

Rebel and KHL defending our manager after that debacle.
6 years in charge and worst season.

Not sacking Rafa would be another mistake on both football and business perspective from the board.
They should never have given him such a good contract in the first place but I'd rather lose £15M now
Keeping Rafa could cost us £50M next season
[/quote]

Losing £15m would be a disaster and if you believe Mourinho would take a massive paycut and come and work for two broke yanks then more fool you. The actions you and your fellow kneejerkers are advocating could sink the club

[/quote]

Your constant use of the word "kneejerkers" is annoying.

He'd have been sacked at any other club bar ours now given that HIS group of players bear no resemblance to a top level side this season. Our performances and results have been shocking and the only thing that can be taken from them is that they are actually getting worse instead of improving. Yes players have to take their share of the blame but he's paid to get the most he can out of them and he is getting precisely nothing.

We're a mess on the field and the buck stops with him
[/quote]

THIS SEASON, THIS SEASON

Last season we were title contenders, so what is evaluations based on just a season worth? You have to look at what;s best for the club and the overall record of the manager, not just a result or a season in isolation. Though with the way the media are and some fans this is difficult you have to have belief in the caliber of the man, most of the managers they could appoint wouldnt last minutes in the job with the pressure and no resources so the continual sacking and hiring of managers would seriously damage us further and could see us sunk into the abyss like Newcastle, Leeds etc.
[/quote]

Since you dont want to evaluate our performances based upon this season alone allow me to put this forward.

We've gone close to winning the league once under him which was indeed last season.

So when our league performances are evaluated over all the seasons he's been here one word comes up.... FAIL.
[/quote]

So 5 seasons in the CL is failure, a European cup is a failure, this is delusion on a scale of Newcastle United and since we can't give our current european cup winning manager the resources to do the job, we should sack him and hire someone with a worse record and expect him to do the job. I'm sure with an attitude like that we'll be where Newcastle is before long

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1033736#msg1033736 date=1263476715]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1033731#msg1033731 date=1263476386]
I'd be tempted to get rid of him even if we do finish 4th to be honest. It would only be papering over the cracks.
[/quote]

I think that the game/performance last night was the nail in Rafa's coffin.
He will be kept on in the job until the summer in the hope of getting 4th (a feat I still think is possible for us) and then shown the door, with last night cited as the catalyst for the decision. It's not the 'Liverpool Way' to sack a manager mid-season.
[/quote]

What worries me is getting fourth place this season (I really hoped having to say that in January would be a thing of the past by now) and although it is possible I just don't see Benitez being able to do this. I think someone new, even someone not suitable in the long term like King Kenny would revive the confidence in some players.

Its far from ideal to get rid of a manager mid season but what really is 'not the Liverpool way' is not winning anything and being out of contention in virtually everything by January. 'The Liverpool way' only really applies because our managers in the old days were good and won a lot, so there was no need to sack them.
If you think about it 2 of our last 3 managers left mid season (as did the one before of course but that was rather different)