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How good a captain was he?

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We live now in such an age of hype that even players who don't need any hype whatsoever still get it heaped on their heads. Gerrard's one of the absolute greats. That ought to be enough, but still we get that slippery bit of speciousness brought out, time and again, about how much greater he is because he played in mostly mediocre teams - well, you don't see anyone make that case for Billy Liddell (if anything his claims are dismissed by some these days on the very same grounds!) - and then the captaincy thing which gets pulled and twisted so much in order to fit the needs of the argument. It's no real shame that Gerrard was at best no more than an adequate captain, because he was indisputably an inspirational player. It's just a pity every single aspect has to be given the Sky airbrushed treatment.
 
What an absurd thing to say.


You're going to have to expand for me a little.

Personally I don't think most of the captains job is done off the field now, PR and things like that. On the field, Gerrard would be Gerrard whether he was captain or not. I don't think making Henderson, Lucas, or Skrtel or whoever captain this year would have gained us more points, do you?

Edit: I'm not intending to discredit Gerrard by saying this, the same goes for all captains, our great ones from the 80's are only great captains because they were in great teams. We would have won as many trophies if someone else in the team was captain. It doesn't take away from the job they did and how good they were as players.
 
So all those who think that Gerrard was a good captain are wrong and belong to the Sky generation ?

And how can someone be a mediocre captain and yet inspire many ? Unless of course, you have a different definition and expectation of a captain.

I think the reason why most are arguing on both sides of the fence is simply down to this - differing expectations of a captain's role.

But at the end of the day - we still support the same club. I'd like to think we're a family.
 
You're going to have to expand for me a little.

Personally I don't think most of the captains job is done off the field now, PR and things like that. On the field, Gerrard would be Gerrard whether he was captain or not. I don't think making Henderson, Lucas, or Skrtel or whoever captain this year would have gained us more points, do you?

Wow. I really am too lazy to go into a debate on this.

All I'm gonna say is that every team needs a leader, whether it's in sports, business or any context for that matter.
A role of a captain is created because a team needs a leader. It's something that has been around for ages, tried and tested - centuries even.

I think it's important to differentiate between the influence of a captain and the competency of one. A good captain is certainly good influence. But just 'cos one is a poor, doesn't mean you don't need one.
 
Wow. I really am too lazy to go into a debate on this.

All I'm gonna say is that every team needs a leader, whether it's in sports, business or any context for that matter.
A role of a captain is created because a team needs a leader. It's something that has been around for ages, tried and tested - centuries even.

I think it's important to differentiate between the influence of a captain and the competency of one. A good captain is certainly good influence. But just 'cos one is a poor, doesn't mean you don't need one.


I may have badly made my point. Of course teams need leaders, that's a given. What I don't think makes a huge difference is who the manager picks to be that leader. Gerrard would be a leader whether he had an armband on or not, as was Sami after Gerrard took over the role. Carra was a leader too.
 
We live now in such an age of hype that even players who don't need any hype whatsoever still get it heaped on their heads. Gerrard's one of the absolute greats. That ought to be enough, but still we get that slippery bit of speciousness brought out, time and again, about how much greater he is because he played in mostly mediocre teams - well, you don't see anyone make that case for Billy Liddell (if anything his claims are dismissed by some these days on the very same grounds!) - and then the captaincy thing which gets pulled and twisted so much in order to fit the needs of the argument. It's no real shame that Gerrard was at best no more than an adequate captain, because he was indisputably an inspirational player. It's just a pity every single aspect has to be given the Sky airbrushed treatment.


Just one last point from me about this subject.

The hype argument/point certainly goes both ways - Especially when it comes to British players! Hype kept SG in the team for 6 years - since the injury in 08/2009 he was never the same - and any other player would have suffered the consequence much sooner rather than so much later.

His influence from 00 to 08/09 was fantastic and he was indeed one of the best ever to wear the LFC shirt but the Hype covering 09 and forward is ludicrous considering the statistical facts and the impact he has actually made. That covers LFC and the national side as well except one match against Croatia where he was outstanding and maybe a few others I might have missed (?) and maybe 10 matches for LFC where he has been on pre 2009 level.

On this note I will clam it and leave you all to the hyperbole - I accept that I am the odd one out and understands little about football.

No need to post back in anger. I promise to leave it alone!!

*leaves quietly*
 
And how can someone be a mediocre captain and yet inspire many ?



How this has become a mystery is beyond me. It's very simple: having a top player in your team, be it a star striker, a powerful midfielder, a great defender or keeper, inspires the whole side. That player might not actually have any leadership qualities but will nonetheless drive the others on by example. Was Torres made a captain so young because he was great at organising the team, talking to under-confident teammates, sorting out internal problems and dealing with the ref? No. He scored loads of goals and was the star of the team. Gerrard falls well below the standards of top captains because, more often than not, he'll withdraw into himself when things go wrong, scowl at teammates making mistakes, sulk at managerial decisions, etc etc. When he could overcome the failings of others (eg, Traore) by taking the ball off them and playing as a one man band, he did so; now, with his personal powers diminished, he can't do that, so he just glowers a lot and looks depressed, angry and/or despondent. No captaincy skills at all. Just a great individual player who can't inspire by example like he used to do.
 
Just one last point from me about this subject.

The hype argument/point certainly goes both ways - Especially when it comes to British players! Hype kept SG in the team for 6 years - since the injury in 08/2009 he was never the same - and any other player would have suffered the consequence much sooner rather than so much later.

His influence from 00 to 08/09 was fantastic and he was indeed one of the best ever to wear the LFC shirt but the Hype covering 09 and forward is ludicrous considering the statistical facts and the impact he has actually made. That covers LFC and the national side as well except one match against Croatia where he was outstanding and maybe a few others I might have missed (?) and maybe 10 matches for LFC where he has been on pre 2009 level.

On this note I will clam it and leave you all to the hyperbole - I accept that I am the odd one out and understands little about football.

No need to post back in anger. I promise to leave it alone!!

*leaves quietly*

The national side? Bollocks to them.
 
How this has become a mystery is beyond me. It's very simple: having a top player in your team, be it a star striker, a powerful midfielder, a great defender or keeper, inspires the whole side. That player might not actually have any leadership qualities but will nonetheless drive the others on by example. Was Torres made a captain so young because he was great at organising the team, talking to under-confident teammates, sorting out internal problems and dealing with the ref? No. He scored loads of goals and was the star of the team. Gerrard falls well bellow the standards of top captains because, more often than not, he'll withdraw into himself when things go wrong, scowl at teammates making mistakes, sulk at managerial decisions, etc etc. When he could overcome the failings of others (eg, Traore) by taking the ball off them and playing as a one man band, he did so; now, with his personal powers diminished, he can't do that, so he just glowers a lot and looks depressed, angry and/or despondent. No captaincy skills at all. Just a great individual player who can't inspire by example like he used to do.

I don't get your attitude towards Gerrard at all.
 
How this has become a mystery is beyond me. It's very simple: having a top player in your team, be it a star striker, a powerful midfielder, a great defender or keeper, inspires the whole side. That player might not actually have any leadership qualities but will nonetheless drive the others on by example. Was Torres made a captain so young because he was great at organising the team, talking to under-confident teammates, sorting out internal problems and dealing with the ref? No. He scored loads of goals and was the star of the team. Gerrard falls well bellow the standards of top captains because, more often than not, he'll withdraw into himself when things go wrong, scowl at teammates making mistakes, sulk at managerial decisions, etc etc. When he could overcome the failings of others (eg, Traore) by taking the ball off them and playing as a one man band, he did so; now, with his personal powers diminished, he can't do that, so he just glowers a lot and looks depressed, angry and/or despondent. No captaincy skills at all. Just a great individual player who can't inspire by example like he used to do.


Sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that.

Leadership for me, is someone who's able to inspire others to want to follow him. After all, a leader leads. Leads who ? Followers. How he does it is an entirely different discussion. The fact remains that there are people who want to follow him. So for me, that's a leader.

There's thousands of books written on leadership but one of the basic tenets of leadership will talk about this and i'm sure a learned person like yourself would have probably come across it before. The types of authority.
1) Positional Authority - a leader who is appointed by an organizational hierarchy. His authority may exists and be enforced regardless of the character/quality of the leader filling the position. In the world, much of life moves under this form of authority. It's also the weakest form of authority. Think David Moores, Roy Hodgson, etc.
2) Expert authority - a leader who is appointed because he has proven capable or knowledgeable in a particular area. The authority given in this case is usually limited to the area of expertise. This authority is stronger than positional but still very limited and often narrow in its insight.
3) Relational authority - leadership based on a relationship shared by followers and leaders. It is extended because those who follow, value the leader knowing first-hand his commitment, as well as the leader's personality, knowledge, character or skill.

Now, the way I see it - is that majority of this forum are undecided which category Stevie falls into, hence the continuous debate. The Stevie superfans (e.g. myself) would put Stevie under Category 3, while the rest think Stevie's more of an 'expert authority'. A maestro in the area of expertise (his playing abilities) but limited in his leadership qualities.

Personally, I don't think there's any right or wrong answer. I'd like to think Stevie is a mixture of a Cat3 and Cat2 type of leader. From my experience, it's one thing being a leader but to inspire others to want to follow you, that's a whole new level by itself. I guess what I want to say is that to inspire others to follow you willingly is bloody hard because it reveals the type of character you really are. Look at Roy Keane. Everywhere he goes, nobody likes him. Nobody wants to play for him. Yeah, sure he'll probably lead like a warrior from the beginning and everyone thinks he's great initially, but when he gets found out eventually, they'll realize he's a nasty piece of work. They may follow him but only out of fear. He's a Cat1 type of leader. Great player, but great leader ? Not a chance.

So for someone who's just an average leader, i struggle to wonder how can he inspire many ? Inspire few, yes. But many ? Hmm...
It's like saying William Wallace was a great warrior but bang average at leadership, yet managed to inspire many cos he had great fighting skills.

The thing is we tend to see players as some puppet running around the pitch but we sometimes forget they are humans too. And humans have feelings, and feelings are affected by various factors around its surroundings.

Like I said before, we've got a different understanding of what leadership means so we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
 
Ideally agree to disagree without the patronising bit, ta. Who the feck sees players as puppets??
 
Interesting post.

There's more of Type 1 in Stevie than you appear to believe. We had a perfectly good skipper in Sami Hyypia before GH decided to give Stevie the armband. I don't know what GH's reasons were, but my guess is they had a lot to do with keeping Stevie onside, because there was no reason at all to take the job away from Sami. It's a tremendous tribute to Sami's professionalism that he accepted the decision as well as he did.

You may have said it in an attempt to discredit the idea, but actually your line about WIlliam Wallace is exactly how I see Stevie G. Those who have followed him - and where do you get "many" from BTW? - have followed the magnificent player, not the iffy captain. They've had to, because too often as a captain his moods have given them little or nothing to follow, as macca describes. And yes, for sure players have feelings - it would have been interesting to know what those were when Stevie was sulking and scowling his way through games which weren't going well.
 
Fair point.

I guess maybe that's what love does to you - blinds you to one's shortcomings. And I bloody love Stevie 🙂

He gave us some of the best moments in the last decade, didn't he ? Strangely, I don't think I'm gonna miss him loads tho'
 
I'm not sure anyone grasps the extent to which we will miss him. He's only one of our greatest ever players. We'll see.
 
A football captain tosses the coin and collects the trophy...that's about it. As someone has said above, Gerrard would be a leader in our team irrespective of whether he wears the armband. Captaincy is a far bigger deal in cricket and rugby.
 
You've lost me there Macca. I'm just making the point that in football the vast majority of in-play tactical decisions are taken by the manager / coach whereas in cricket and rugby the captain calls the shots.
 
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