How good a captain was he?

[Mamma Mia]

A very, very good one all things considered. Could he have been better? Of course, but I think he's in the top 10 club captains of his generation.

From a list of all things you would want in a captain, Gerrard excelled in all but two or three. I'm sure those will be repeated often enough in this thread.

For me, he got better and better at it over the years after being handed the role too early. He's always been very hard on himself and there were times when that affected his ability to be a great on the field motivator and organiser. There were far more times when he rallied and inspired everyone around him to achieve feats that seemed beyond them. He made a lot of players better, he made managers look better, he won the trust and admiration of all those he lead, and he tried his utmost to be the best captain and player he could for this club that he loves so much.

Like everyone before him and all to come, he wasn't perfect. We could easily discuss the handful of flaws he had in great detail, but I'd prefer to just remember what he was overall: Captain Fantastic.

 

[mark1975]

This is the point though, there's not many (any?) players you couldn't discuss the flaws of. I'm sure City fans could pull Toure to pieces, or Arsenal fans Henry or Vieira, no player is infallible, but it's how far their qualities outweigh the minor details.

 

[gkmacca]

I've just finished John Keith's book 'Paisley'. Apparently when Keegan announced he was leaving mid-season Bob thought it was a strange decision because at Liverpool it was impossible to be out of form for long periods. If you were good enough there'd be enough quality and leaders in the side to make up for any short-term failings without the player concerned having to be dropped. Compare that to Gerrard who, despite all of his sheer brilliance, doesn't seem to be there when struggling team mates need him the most.

It's always intrigued me that Gerrard, like Keegan, had the gift, and curse, of having a mood that spread to the whole team,and beyond. By a series of incredible flukes as a little lad I got taken to loads of games in Kevin's last season, usually right close to the pitch, and when he was in a bad mood - which was pretty often (especially when Joey Jones was around) - my god it made everyone else tense and tetchy. Similarly, when he was bright and positive it radiated out to everyone else and seemed to make the whole ground think that losing was impossible. Gerrard has always had something similar - when he was up for it, which of course was most of the time,it was infectious, but, as we've seen more and more in recent seasons, when he was pissed off, frustrated and sulky, christ it poisoned the atmosphere. That's why, for me, neither was suited to being team captain. Gerrard is probably the best CLUB captain we've ever had, in the old fashioned sense of that term - by all accounts he's magnificent off the field (Souness would be close, though) - but he's just not had the skills of, say, Emlyn Hughes or Souness when it comes to genuinely doing the job to the max on the pitch.

 

[gkmacca]

This thread pisses me off.

"I'm gutted he's leaving. I'm sad. One of the greatest....Blah blah blah"

"Hey, let's create a thread and debate about Gerrard's qualities/abilities. Let's talk about his weaknesses." (even though it's been done to death)

"No, no...i'm being objective. I love Stevie, but let's talk about his weaknesses...."

RAWK would have locked this thread and banned most who posted on it. That's why this is a far saner place.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Exactly. No one is saying it makes Gerrard any less a legend.

No one is writing this is in letters & sending it to him.

We're having a debate about arguably our greatest ever player & one of the most divisive parts of his long & successful tenure.

As for the argument about the timing. What does it really fucking matter? Do we have to wait until he leaves, or will that be irrelevant then?

 

[leftpeg]

Exactly. No one is saying it makes Gerrard any less a legend.

No one is writing this is in letters & sending it to him.

We're having a debate about arguably our greatest ever player & one of the most divisive parts of his long & successful tenure.

As for the argument about the timing. What does it really fucking matter? Do we have to wait until he leaves, or will that be irrelevant then?

At last, a voice of reason.

 

[Fabio]

As I said the other day, I think it's still too raw for some people to be rational

 

[Mamma Mia]

As I said the other day, I think it's still too raw for some people to be rational

Who is being irrational?

 

[Piedro]

Yeah

 

[RedStar]

RAWK would have locked this thread and banned most who posted on it. That's why this is a far saner place.

Agreed, one of the reasons I continue to frequent this forum is that unlike most fan sites its not an echo chamber that only allows the same dogmatic shite to be trotted out over and over again. Gerrard is/was one of our greatest ever players, hes annnounced hes leaving the club so now is as good a time as any to discuss his career warts and all. Its not like hes died and we are all taking the piss, nearly every comment has been laced with positives there is nothing what so ever wrong with this discussion its been warm sentimental and hugely positive.

 

[mark1975]

Agreed, one of the reasons I continue to frequent this forum is that unlike most fan sites its not an echo chamber that only allows the same dogmatic shite to be trotted out over and over again. Gerrard is/was one of our greatest ever players, hes annnounced hes leaving the club so now is as good a time as any to discuss his career warts and all. Its not like hes died and we are all taking the piss, nearly every comment has been laced with positives there is nothing what so ever wrong with this discussion its been warm sentimental and hugely positive.

I think the point is that alot of the so called negative points are ones that have been battered to death this season, you could argue that now is not a time to continue to go over all of that, now's a time to praise a legend in the game. I'm not too fussed about people discussing his flaws btw, but if we're discussing what sort of legacy he's left, then the downside of his game is fairly irrelevant.

 

[FoxForceFive]

As I said the other day, I think it's still too raw for some people to be rational

Raw? Of course it's fucking raw.

I started watching youth games when I was 11, so I saw him play up close & personal when he was pretty much my age regularly, got his autograph, celebrated every goal & shit myself regularly during his first senior season cos I so desperately want did to succeed, but he was nervous, over aggressive & tried way too hard!

So, yeah, it's raw for me too, but you can still be pragmatic & think about the big picture.

No player is bigger than the club, even Gerrard.

 

[Fabio]

Raw? Of course it's fucking raw.

I started watching youth games when I was 11, so I saw him play up close & personal when he was pretty much my age regularly, got his autograph, celebrated every goal & shit myself regularly during his first senior season cos I so desperately want did to succeed, but he was nervous, over aggressive & tried way too hard!

So, yeah, it's raw for me too, but you can still be pragmatic & think about the big picture.

No player is bigger than the club, even Gerrard.

I understand all that. It's true for me too. I just don't think everyone can be pragmatic now

 

[Piedro]

I'm going the palace game BTW our kid.

 

[Judge Jules]

Take Judith mate.

 

[MaBigTip]

The worst thing about Gerrard being Captain is that he's had license to continually take his shit corners instead of getting on the end of them and scoring.

 

[Judge Jules]

Don't know about being the worst thing, but it's a good point. This used to frustrate the heck out of me, not least because we didn't seem to have much in the way of alternatives. Rodgers has changed it, but that should have happened long before he arrived.

 

[Wiberg]

It's always intrigued me that Gerrard, like Keegan, had the gift, and curse, of having a mood that spread to the whole team,and beyond. By a series of incredible flukes as a little lad I got taken to loads of games in Kevin's last season, usually right close to the pitch, and when he was in a bad mood - which was pretty often (especially when Joey Jones was around) - my god it made everyone else tense and tetchy. Similarly, when he was bright and positive it radiated out to everyone else and seemed to make the whole ground think that losing was impossible. Gerrard has always had something similar - when he was up for it, which of course was most of the time,it was infectious, but, as we've seen more and more in recent seasons, when he was pissed off, frustrated and sulky, christ it poisoned the atmosphere. That's why, for me, neither was suited to being team captain. Gerrard is probably the best CLUB captain we've ever had, in the old fashioned sense of that term - by all accounts he's magnificent off the field (Souness would be close, though) - but he's just not had the skills of, say, Emlyn Hughes or Souness when it comes to genuinely doing the job to the max on the pitch.

Great post!

Wasn't Keegan just a great player. I started watching Liverpool in 76 so I remember him a little.

I also remember the Dalglish debut against Chelsea or Palace I think. Great players those two.

 

[leftpeg]

Great post!

Wasn't Keegan just a great player. I started watching Liverpool in 76 so I remember him a little.

I also remember the Dalglish debut against Chelsea or Palace I think. Great players those two.

Kenny's league debut was away to Middlesbrough.

Keegan was and remains a cunt. I would urge you to read 'Paisley' by John Keith...it's incredible how many times Keegan walked out on Liverpool and England or feigned injury just because he wasn't happy about something. It's a trait he later took into his managerial career.

 

[Wiberg]

🙂 great player though, Keegan - when he wanted to play.

I was talking about the Dalglish debut. Maybe it was his debut on Danish television. I just remember he was introduced as the most expensive player ever. Something a little boy could understand. He will always be my absolute favorite. I think it's makes a difference when you grow up with them. I also remember the pain he came across with in 89. So devastating, so honest and so true. He was never the same after that and to a large extend neither was Liverpool FC.

 

[Silver Sean]

We will never know because we only see it from the outside. What the players he's captained say about him him means more. Also, if he'd won the title as captain , as he deserved to do, we would not even be asking this question. He's rescued and lifted team after team after team for 17 years. I think that proves he's been an excellent captain. Deeds not words.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

We will never know because we only see it from the outside. What the players he's captained say about him him means more. Also, if he'd won the title as captain , as he deserved to do, we would not even be asking this question. He's rescued and lifted team after team after team for 17 years. I think that proves he's been an excellent captain. Deeds not words.

Yep, if the team had been more successful, he'd be thought of a lot higher in this regard.

I think the role is vastly overrated anyway.

 

[gkmacca]

Yep, if the team had been more successful, he'd be thought of a lot higher in this regard.

If the team wasn't as successful, it's not a sign that he's a poor captain, but if it HAD been more successful it would be proof that he's a great captain. I see.

 

[Mystic]

Average!
Cheers

Was your new years resolution to start using capital letters? If so, bravo.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

If the team wasn't as successful, it's not a sign that he's a poor captain, but if it HAD been more successful it would be proof that he's a great captain. I see.

It wouldn't be proof of anything, I'm just saying people would think differently if we had been more successful. How successful, or how unsuccessful, we have been over the past 13 years has very little to do with how Gerrard performs as a captain, and everything to do with how good he is as a player and how good the rest of the squad is.

I think the role is overrated, and doesn't have as much influence on results as some are suggesting.

 

[Judge Jules]

We will never know because we only see it from the outside. What the players he's captained say about him him means more. Also, if he'd won the title as captain , as he deserved to do, we would not even be asking this question. He's rescued and lifted team after team after team for 17 years. I think that proves he's been an excellent captain. Deeds not words.

Respectfully but strongly disagree. It proves only that Stevie himself has been an incredible player. As for "deeds not words", a captain needs both.

 

[Wiberg]

Yep, if the team had been more successful, he'd be thought of a lot higher in this regard.

I think the role is vastly overrated anyway.

I'm not even sure vastly overrated covers it tbh. The past 6 years we won more matches without him than we have with him. We won 50% more matches when Lucas plays compared to when he is not on! Says it all really.

The past 7 years we went from 3 to 37 on the UEFA Rank. I know it's no SG's fault but what a slip 🙁
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2014.html

 

[Silver Sean]

Respectfully but strongly disagree. It proves only that Stevie himself has been an incredible player. As for "deeds not words", a captain needs both.

I really have never understood the 'he's not a good captain' camp. It's all opinions though right? There's no one in this team even now who deserves to be captain ahead of him. He's been our talisman and captain through a lot more thin than thick. His commitment to the club, his leadership on and off the field has been exemplary. I don't do not understand anyone having a pop at him. I really don't.

 

[Judge Jules]

It's true that there isn't anyone in the current squad with a better claim than Stevie, but (a) there blinkin well was when the captaincy was taken away from Sami and given to him in the first place and (b) being the best candidate at the moment doesn't mean he's good at the job - it means only that our squad has a lot of developing to do. His commitment to the club has mostly been exemplary, and I'd cut him some slack over the Chelsea business as I suspect that was largely down to his agent dropping poison in his lughole, but his leadership on the field has left a lot to be desired at times (can't speak for his leadership off the field, though others more in the know than I am have had a fair bit to say about that on here).

Last but not least, discussing what some of us see as his weaknesses does not constitute "having a pop", especially not when it's invariably accompanied by lots of positive comments about his strengths. Are we going to start imitating RAWK and only being allowed to say nice stuff about certain people?

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I think the role is overrated, and doesn't have as much influence on results as some are suggesting.

What an absurd thing to say.