Nobody is talking about dominating. I'm talking about being in the game at all.
"I told you how good they are."
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Nobody is talking about dominating. I'm talking about being in the game at all.
I disagree.
I think our words are all mixed up. The team that deserves to win is the team that won. Everything else is tactics and technique and fitness and strategies and plans.
Ball goes in the goal versus ball doesn’t go in the goal. Enough of this self-flagellation.
Unless you’re telling me that Rocky Balboa didn’t deserve to beat Ivan Drago. Then things are really going to get real up in here.
Ball goes in the goal versus ball doesn’t go in the goal. Enough of this self-flagellation.
Unless you’re telling me that Rocky Balboa didn’t deserve to beat Ivan Drago. Then things are really going to get real up in here.
You can't argue with results. People nit-picking at HOW they have been won are missing the whole point of football. Of course we'd all like it if we'd been the ones giving the absolutely battering (for some of the game) but that doesn't always happen.
I'll come back to that comment I made on how many commentators and fans will say a minnow deserved a victory/draw because of their resolute defending and nicking a goal (even though battered for the whole game - which we weren't) that seems to go out of the window when it's two top level teams.
Well we won - so clearly we were in the game. 😉
Yeah, but we aren't rocky balboa, all pluck and brain damage. PSG aren't Ivan drago either, not with our inhalers.
We are Liverpool. We can't be going into games and ceding that much possession without counter punching and carrying a threat, or at least establishing possession occasionally to give a rest.
Well we can, but it's not a reliable way of getting results to play as we did, and I find some of slots discourse around it pragmatic only if you assume we are outclassed. We aren't, but we were, and I don't like what slot said about it.
There's no room for anything that I want to discuss if you think that way, so I'm really not sure what to do with it.
We didnt impose ourself on that game for the vast majority of the game , in any way, other than defending right around our box. We couldn't do what we wanted with the ball, we couldn't get the ball, we couldn't move the ball, and we carried no threat.
That's why it's funny we won.
I'd agree if this was our usual recourse. However clearly our forwards decided to all down tools at the same time, forcing our midfield to run around like demented chihuahuas trying to win back/mitigate, due to our forwards continually coughing up possession the moment they got it. Had our forwards been at the races the possession stats would have likely been even.
That won't happen every game, it really was just a bad day at the office for our forwards, hence why I think you're making a little too much of this. Not overboard but maybe reading a little too much into it.
That said against City it was clearly a tactic to force them wide (because their wingers are nowhere near as good as PSGs) and even with so little possession (34%) we were clearly in control.
The answer is easy mate - you said we weren't in the game. We won so we clearly were. Why? Because of a brilliant defensive display that is also an essential aspect of football, almost as much so as attacking.
PSG gave a superb display of control and possession but eminently completely failed to turn that into goals due to the brilliance of our defending. Unstoppable force met an Immoveable object.
Nah, we were shit, and our defense was good at it's very deepest, but our team as a whole didn't defend well, which is why we were under pressure all the time. That's because we didn't do anything on the ball. A great defensive team eliminates some threat in overall play, it doesn't rely on extinguishing it at the last second again and again.
We were in the game at the very end when we put a player who can do something with a hoofball on, and they were tired.
The fact that we werent down by a few before that is a mix of a bunch of things, but its remarkable because it's unlikely.
The fact that we won was still more unlikely.
I don't understand why it's not easy to say we were unacceptably bad but got away with it due to luck and some heroics. Our own manager said it was lucky, and we didn't deserve a win.
At any rate, Im not interested in discussing whether we were shit or not. We were. I'm not interested in hearing that the ends justify the means because then what the fuck are we doing on a football forum, we should just look at the results really. Why even watch the game?
I wanted to talk about slots approach to these games and our turtling incredibly deeper than we have since roy hodgson, and the noises he's making around these types of games.
We were in the game at the very end when we put a player who can do something with a hoofball on, and they were tired.
The fact that we werent down by a few before that is a mix of a bunch of things, but its remarkable because it's unlikely.
The fact that we won was still more unlikely.
I don't understand why it's not easy to say we were unacceptably bad but got away with it due to luck and some heroics. Our own manager said it was lucky, and we didn't deserve a win.
At any rate, Im not interested in discussing whether we were shit or not. We were. I'm not interested in hearing that the ends justify the means because then what the fuck are we doing on a football forum, we should just look at the results really. Why even watch the game?
I wanted to talk about slots approach to these games and our turtling incredibly deeper than we have since roy hodgson, and the noises he's making around these types of games.
If that's what you want to discuss then you should take all matches into consideration and not just two away matches at oil-funded top clubs.
Like our games against Real, City (H) & Leverkusen too.
We were unlucky to have only won it 0-1 because our attackers and midfielders played utter shite in possession, and on another day if they'd actually performed to their standards + we had a bit of luck, we'd have twatted PSG 5-0.
I have no problem with slot approaching certain games in this manner. The stark contrast in performance between the city and psg game was that the forwards and midfield in the city game could actually pick a fucking pass
The system is sound, let down by performances on the night against psg
The system is sound, let down by performances on the night against psg
This is how I see it. We showed we could get past their press and get into the spaces between lines. It’s just every time the ball went near slobs, Salah and Diaz (and Jota for the first 35) we gave the ball back to them.
I doubt the same thing will happen at our place.
I don't agree in all honesty. Firstly, the City game was closer to a 3-0/4-0 than 2-1. We hadn't won a game at the Ethiad for 10 years. So for all our gung ho approaches the last few seasons we have either gotten beat or drawn. We have some pretty bad losses there as well. Slot got that approach spot on, and I'm guessing we would have switched our approach if we had gone behind or if the game was level in the 2nd half.
Secondly, PSG and Luis Enrique play a man to man marking approach all over the pitch. Its extremely hard to play against if done correctly as we found out against Atalanta last season.
This is mostly the reason we played it long towards our wingers as we could bypass the first line of press and open up the space in the middle of the pitch. Sadly both Salah and Diaz were off the the entire game and lost just about every challenge possible and we seemed to be overly cautious in the first half. This lead us to be under pressure for just about 45 mins. Slot changed it in the second half and we limited them to 0,40 xG from long range shots while we had several chances to counter attack that we didnt make the most of until the 86th minute.
In isolation the 2nd half was quite decent.
Thirdly, Slot said in an interview not to long ago that he gives away maybe 10% of whats going on behind the scenes in his press conferences and comments. Its a bit simplistic to think that his approach at half time in this game is anything different.
Overall, I like the fact that he is complimentary before we play any opposition as what he says and how we approach the game on the day is usually totally different. Its much better to be positive and then smash the life out of them during 90 mins.
All in all, it's an overreaction after two wins (albeit one very lucky) and some general comments that don't mean much anyway.
Secondly, PSG and Luis Enrique play a man to man marking approach all over the pitch. Its extremely hard to play against if done correctly as we found out against Atalanta last season.
This is mostly the reason we played it long towards our wingers as we could bypass the first line of press and open up the space in the middle of the pitch. Sadly both Salah and Diaz were off the the entire game and lost just about every challenge possible and we seemed to be overly cautious in the first half. This lead us to be under pressure for just about 45 mins. Slot changed it in the second half and we limited them to 0,40 xG from long range shots while we had several chances to counter attack that we didnt make the most of until the 86th minute.
In isolation the 2nd half was quite decent.
Thirdly, Slot said in an interview not to long ago that he gives away maybe 10% of whats going on behind the scenes in his press conferences and comments. Its a bit simplistic to think that his approach at half time in this game is anything different.
Overall, I like the fact that he is complimentary before we play any opposition as what he says and how we approach the game on the day is usually totally different. Its much better to be positive and then smash the life out of them during 90 mins.
All in all, it's an overreaction after two wins (albeit one very lucky) and some general comments that don't mean much anyway.
No one is overreacting:
* some performances are a means to an end - we all know that
* we can't do that forever because it becomes predictable and the opposition will address it, eventually when form/individual performances make that sort of performance not quite as effective, we'll get a hiding
* why are we only allowed to look at results? If that's the case and everything is perfect, we may as well go home, we may as well not forward plan, we don't need anyone, everything works.
* we are a big club and a good team - I'm not sure the inferiority thing is always a good thing, it's an almost Hodgson-esque mentality. We're Liverpool! Ali mentioned post game that Slot told the players that PSG would have us on the ropes and could batter us (or words to that effect), what comes first there? The chicken, or the egg?
* you can defend in numbers and still pass the ball, maybe it was a bad day, maybe we took the whole thing too far the other way.
* nothing wrong with winning ugly, but look at the bigger picture and the longevity of it. There needs to be some balance and you need to dominate teams too as a champion. We might have seen teams win this way, but they don't repeatedly win this way, certainly not in recent years winnig back to back trophies.
* some performances are a means to an end - we all know that
* we can't do that forever because it becomes predictable and the opposition will address it, eventually when form/individual performances make that sort of performance not quite as effective, we'll get a hiding
* why are we only allowed to look at results? If that's the case and everything is perfect, we may as well go home, we may as well not forward plan, we don't need anyone, everything works.
* we are a big club and a good team - I'm not sure the inferiority thing is always a good thing, it's an almost Hodgson-esque mentality. We're Liverpool! Ali mentioned post game that Slot told the players that PSG would have us on the ropes and could batter us (or words to that effect), what comes first there? The chicken, or the egg?
* you can defend in numbers and still pass the ball, maybe it was a bad day, maybe we took the whole thing too far the other way.
* nothing wrong with winning ugly, but look at the bigger picture and the longevity of it. There needs to be some balance and you need to dominate teams too as a champion. We might have seen teams win this way, but they don't repeatedly win this way, certainly not in recent years winnig back to back trophies.
I will never understand why disagreeing with a sentiment is met by everything is perfect and we may as well go home.
The last bit. Is that your overall impression of our season?
I thought we were lucky against City and extremely lucky against PSG.
The idea that we were happy for Doku to run past Trent 6/7 times and trust our CB’s to deal with his crosses is laughable.
On another day we lose both games but I’m not complaining.
We have sub optimal players in a number of positions which you would hope Slot addresses in the summer.
To be doing that off the back of a league title would be outstanding and beyond our wildest dreams last August.
The idea that we were happy for Doku to run past Trent 6/7 times and trust our CB’s to deal with his crosses is laughable.
On another day we lose both games but I’m not complaining.
We have sub optimal players in a number of positions which you would hope Slot addresses in the summer.
To be doing that off the back of a league title would be outstanding and beyond our wildest dreams last August.
Like really?
City 0-2 Liverpool
Shots : 8 (2) vs. 18 (7)
I'm calling BS on that one. On another day we lost that one maybe once or twice in 10 matches.
We weren't lucky againt City. Doku created nothing even if he owned Trent in that first half.
We were very lucky against PSG.
We absolutely had City’s number and even had gears in hand to step it up.
PSG showed we need EVERYONE on it to compete for big ears. We had too many passengers. We did our job defensively using our world class players to the top of their ability. Some others need to have a word with themselves and it cannot happen again this season otherwise we will only have the league and league cup. I want a “mini-treble”.
PSG showed we need EVERYONE on it to compete for big ears. We had too many passengers. We did our job defensively using our world class players to the top of their ability. Some others need to have a word with themselves and it cannot happen again this season otherwise we will only have the league and league cup. I want a “mini-treble”.
There are certainly worse situations to be in than discussing how we beat the reigning league champions of Spain, France, and England without conceding a goal. If the worst outcome of our style of play is winning two trophies instead of three, that is not too bad at all.
We will always find a way to be anxious and miserable. The 90s scarred us all. That said, we need to improve and show more ambition in the home leg.
We will always find a way to be anxious and miserable. The 90s scarred us all. That said, we need to improve and show more ambition in the home leg.
No of course not, and as I've said in previous posts, we've been crying out for a plan B, Slot has done brilliantly at a crucial stage of the season to adapt, his tactics against City and to a lesser extent PSG were spot on. I think we underperformed in Paris, but whatever, the question by the OP was more about should we be going into games thinking we are inferior to the opposition. I think there's a danger there over the course of time, that's not saying we haven't got it right or that we haven't played it the right way, it's saying that belief goes a long way too and there's a danger of over-cautiousness and causing a team to play within itself, which I think is a little bit of what happened on Wednesday.
And the disagreeing with the sentiment part - that was leveled at Froggy, because as ever he fails to look at the bigger picture of what people are trying to say and challenges it only with the here and now and what the end result was, posters are erring on the side of caution and asking for us to not go too far down the road of going into games with the belief that the opposition are better than us.
No one is being a cunt about it, we've seen similar situations with other managers, if people want to only look at the result in isolation and not worry about where things nearly went wrong, then it's all a bit myopic and it's no surprise really that it stems from posters who historically bury their heads in the sand. I don't see why they can then get so dismissive about something that we've seen unfold with other managers and other teams countless times.
It's just a forum, it's just a "where can we do better" type post. People seriously need to learn to be a bit more objective. It's not doom and gloom mongering, it's just looking at the bigger picture.
To be honest I've never been so happy with a "plan B" for as long as I can remember. Slot is excellent tactically and switches and changes before and in games to adapt whatever the opposition throws at us. We've got a plan A, B, C and D.
FWIW, I don't think he would say solely before any game that we are inferior to that side without it being taken out of context. More like highlighting their strengths but always with the belief that we can win. Otherwise what would be the point of being a manager.
Like this from Alisson: "The manager told us how hard it would be and we had to be ready to suffer. They have so much quality. We gave away so many chances but in the end with Harvey coming in and scoring the goal, it's unbelievable. A great story. A great night".
FWIW, I don't think he would say solely before any game that we are inferior to that side without it being taken out of context. More like highlighting their strengths but always with the belief that we can win. Otherwise what would be the point of being a manager.
Like this from Alisson: "The manager told us how hard it would be and we had to be ready to suffer. They have so much quality. We gave away so many chances but in the end with Harvey coming in and scoring the goal, it's unbelievable. A great story. A great night".
A lot of great sides over decades play away from home against strong opposition like that. Ferguson did it, ancelotti does it, mourinho did it. We're used to klopps gung ho, attack no matter what style. This worked and failed in equal measure, as sometimes we'd batter the opposition and other times we'd look shite.
As we were finding spaces for attack, the tactics were correct but the personnel let slot down.
If we played that way against fucking wolves I'd be concerned. Playing that way against one of the form teams in Europe I'm ok with. I doubt slot would have kept it the same if we conceded.
As we were finding spaces for attack, the tactics were correct but the personnel let slot down.
If we played that way against fucking wolves I'd be concerned. Playing that way against one of the form teams in Europe I'm ok with. I doubt slot would have kept it the same if we conceded.
Even our greatest of sides would “dog out” an away European tie.
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