Poll Firmino - Is he good enough?

[Khalido]

I had my doubts about his goal scoring ability, when opportunities came his way, you always hoped he'd score rather than expect him to. I don't get that feeling AS much now. He's clearly worked on his finishing and we're all seeing the results.

The romantic in me hopes that "The Flabby Melt" can now become an affectionate term of endearment for Bobby, similar to the way the recently departed Tommy Lawrence was fondly known as "The Flying Pig". Just a thought.

 

[Mamma Mia]

I fear this flabby, pointless melt is going to be another of those players that some bellends desperately - endlessly - try and convince everyone is actually great, until years of everyone's time has been wasted.

 

[mwake]

We are lucky in that Firminio doesn't get injured much, but regardless we need a back-up Street for rotation purposes at least. He has upped his game and is probably or most important player in terms of what he does which is intelligent non-stop pressing.

 

[Oncy]

Not really. I form opinions based on data and evidence. My view on Firmino was entirely correct; he didn't score enough goals.

However, like any rational, intelligent person, when the data-set changes, and suggests a different conclusion, it is entirely normal for that view to be revised.
Should Firmino's performances and effectiveness dip, and his crucial stats - scoring goals - change for the worse, I will again be entitled to use that in order to formulate a new conclusion.

This is quite normal for any kind of analytical process, and making glib, emotive statements about "right" or "wrong" has no value in an ongoing analysis in which observed results change.

Hopefully this should help clear up some confusion among our less bright posters who might be less used to dealing with empirical evidence when forming an opinion.

This is such a spectrum answer. Love it. Love you.

 

[Rosco]

I'm the only one on the fence apparently.

95% are sure he's good enough to lead the line into the future, which is not surprising in one way (because he has been excellent this season) but it is also surprising how you all seem to be convinced that this season is the true Firmino that has for whatever reason not shown up for the past few years.

Its the form v. class thing.

This season could be the outlier and if you look at shot conversion and shot accuracy stats you'll see accuracy is down but conversion is up.
I haven't seen any expected goals stats for him, but if you had them for his career you would be better positioned to determine whether this season is an outlier or not.

It could be that following a change of position he has adapted and improved, and then he is showing his class this year. If that's the case it is reasonable to expect him to continue in the same vein

But i don't think it's possible to be sure about that based on the info to hand.

 

[Glen C]

I'm the only one on the fence apparently.

95% are sure he's good enough to lead the line into the future, which is not surprising in one way (because he has been excellent this season) but it is also surprising how you all seem to be convinced that this season is the true Firmino that has for whatever reason not shown up for the past few years.

Its the form v. class thing.

This season could be the outlier and if you look at shot conversion and shot accuracy stats you'll see accuracy is down but conversion is up.
I haven't seen any expected goals stats for him, but if you had them for his career you would be better positioned to determine whether this season is an outlier or not.

It could be that following a change of position he has adapted and improved, and then he is showing his class this year. If that's the case it is reasonable to expect him to continue in the same vein

But i don't think it's possible to be sure about that based on the info to hand.

Yep this post pretty much summed up my thoughts. Also what happens if Salah and Mane hit a dry patch? All of a sudden the amount of goals Firmino is scoring will become more important.

 

[manwithnoname]

This is such a spectrum answer. Love it. Love you.

I got Dantes to ghost-write it, then edited out all the bits about killing people and eating their viscera.

(This reduced the word-count by about half).

 

[Insignificance]

Yep this post pretty much summed up my thoughts. Also what happens if Salah and Mane hit a dry patch? All of a sudden the amount of goals Firmino is scoring will become more important.

I guess the Whole team still will be held responsible for the goals. And what should we look for as an typical striker? 89 M £ Lukaku? 70 M £ Morata? Others suggested?

 

[ILD]

I'm the only one on the fence apparently.

95% are sure he's good enough to lead the line into the future, which is not surprising in one way (because he has been excellent this season) but it is also surprising how you all seem to be convinced that this season is the true Firmino that has for whatever reason not shown up for the past few years.

Its the form v. class thing.

This season could be the outlier and if you look at shot conversion and shot accuracy stats you'll see accuracy is down but conversion is up.
I haven't seen any expected goals stats for him, but if you had them for his career you would be better positioned to determine whether this season is an outlier or not.

It could be that following a change of position he has adapted and improved, and then he is showing his class this year. If that's the case it is reasonable to expect him to continue in the same vein

But i don't think it's possible to be sure about that based on the info to hand.

Yeah I didn't vote, I rarely do in these polls. There is no gun to our heads to decide now. I also have no problem signing another striker, I think we should. I'm not sure if Solanke or Sturridge are decent enough cover for us.

As for Frimino, I love him. He's one of my favourite players in the team. He's simply a brilliant all round footballer.

 

[Frogfish]

I didn't call for his head JM.

Calling him shit is one thing, I always supported his workrate and how he helped the attack function, when it worked at its best. I questioned those games where we and he missed chances and it cost us points. Which led to the valid question about adding a prolific scorer (not to replace, but to help Firmino and the team).

It's a bit rich that posters who ridiculed that idea (Froggy, Ryan and others) are now taking some personal victory from his upturn in productivity, when at least part of the reason for that, is Klopp identifying a lack of prolificacy, which a few of us had touched upon as the only drawback about our then present attack.

Like I said, some of the criticism of him was way OTT, some of it was valid. Some posters saw our ability to function around his work ethic and having a big goalscorer, as being mutually exclusive. Which was of course, really shortsighted, as proven.

What bollocks Mark. I've been advocating buying Auba for maybe 3 seasons now. However Brendan was sniping at every opportunity (even when he played well any praise was through gritted teeth) and wanted Firmino replaced as you very well know ... and it got on everyone's tits.

And you can't for one moment claim that Salah is the 'big goalscorer' the likes of Brendan were advocating, it's just turned out that way, and in no small part due to Firmino's contributions. I'm not even sure Brendan wanted him either. Salah has just turned out brilliantly but the goal spread across the team has pretty much proved the point that was being made at the time - unfortunately our defence continues to be the handbrake again this season and City are having a record breaking season.

 

[Glen C]

I guess the Whole team still will be held responsible for the goals. And what should we look for as an typical striker? 89 M £ Lukaku? 70 M £ Morata? Others suggested?

If this isn't a purple patch and its a case of Firmino has just improved then all we need is a decent backup player because the Firmino right now is exceptional with his link up play, work ethic and goals. I found him very hit and miss last season. Would have a few good games and then offer nothing for a few games. This season he seems to have gone up a level and it really could be a case of him now being now used to his role. Who the backup striker is i've no idea but Solanke is nowhere near ready yet

 

[manwithnoname]

What bollocks Mark. I've been advocating buying Auba for maybe 3 seasons now. However Brendan was sniping at every opportunity (even when he played well any praise was through gritted teeth) and wanted Firmino replaced as you very well know ... and it got on everyone's tits.

And you can't for one moment claim that Salah is the 'big goalscorer' the likes of Brendan were advocating, it's just turned out that way, and in no small part due to Firmino's contributions. I'm not even sure Brendan wanted him either. Salah has just turned out brilliantly but the goal spread across the team has pretty much proved the point that was being made at the time - unfortunately our defence continues to be the handbrake again this season and City are having a record breaking season.

Yes you can.

We obviously needed a reliable goalscorer who could score 20 plus goals and we got one. That's all I ever wanted, and thankfully Klopp and the scouting department were equally aware of the need for us to have one, ignoring everyone else who bleated on all fucking season that we didn't.

So now we have that finisher, and the likes of Firmino and Mane (and until recently Coutinho) can happily support him.

 

[Frogfish]

Having trouble admitting he was wrong might be something he picked up at work.

Maybe we'll get an apology in a few years, tucked away in a thread in the "Other Sports" Forum.

LOL ! Pity this didn't get more love.

 

[Hansern]

Having trouble admitting he was wrong might be something he picked up at work.

Maybe we'll get an apology in a few years, tucked away in a thread in the "Other Sports" Forum.

Hahahahahaha

 

[Mamma Mia]

I'm the only one on the fence apparently.

95% are sure he's good enough to lead the line into the future, which is not surprising in one way (because he has been excellent this season) but it is also surprising how you all seem to be convinced that this season is the true Firmino that has for whatever reason not shown up for the past few years.

Its the form v. class thing.

This season could be the outlier and if you look at shot conversion and shot accuracy stats you'll see accuracy is down but conversion is up.
I haven't seen any expected goals stats for him, but if you had them for his career you would be better positioned to determine whether this season is an outlier or not.

It could be that following a change of position he has adapted and improved, and then he is showing his class this year. If that's the case it is reasonable to expect him to continue in the same vein

But i don't think it's possible to be sure about that based on the info to hand.

Good post. I don't buy the bit about us all being convinced this is the true Firmino though.

A lot of us thought he was good enough last season too. During his supposed worst period last year, Binny posted some great stats to show how well he was doing despite not scoring a ton of goals. The great thing about him is that even during barren spells his contribution is immense and he makes us better. When he loses form, you can be sure he will still be working his balls off for the team.

 

[ILD]

On a side note, I've been vocal on the Brendan vs Frimino sideshow in the past on here as I was baffled by Brendan's stance toward Frimino. Brendan likes to go early on players and quickly labelled Frimino a 'terrible footballer'. I think the post was 'What a terrible footballer'. He also called him a 'useless flabby melt' and then you have the post Mama Mia posted a few pages back.
Then the argument was cleverly shifted away from Frimino's ability to 'he doesn't score enough goals' but that wasn't his original point. His original point was that Frimino was a terrible footballer. Brendan has repackaged his argument and has been lavishing praise on Frimino recently but many still remember his original views and like to remind him of them. Well, coz that's what we seem do on this forum don't we?

 

[Mamma Mia]

Yes you can.

We obviously needed a reliable goalscorer who could score 20 plus goals and we got one. That's all I ever wanted, and thankfully Klopp and the scouting department were equally aware of the need for us to have one, ignoring everyone else who bleated on all fucking season that we didn't.

So now we have that finisher, and the likes of Firmino and Mane (and until recently Coutinho) can happily support him.

Ahh, makes sense now. So all those people you argued endlessly with didn't want us to add a player with lots of goals to the team? In that case, you are absolutely right. They must be idiots.

Or for some reason they got the idea that you wanted to replace Bobby with a 20 a season forward.

All just a misunderstanding really.

 

[manwithnoname]

On a side note, I've been vocal on the Brendan vs Frimino sideshow in the past on here as I was baffled by Brendan's stance toward Frimino. Brendan likes to go early on players and quickly labelled Frimino a 'terrible footballer'. I think the post was 'What a terrible footballer'. He also called him a 'useless flabby melt' and then you have the post Mama Mia posted a few pages back.
Then the argument was cleverly shifted away from Frimino's ability to 'he doesn't score enough goals' but that wasn't his original point. His original point was that Frimino was a terrible footballer. Brendan has repackaged his argument and has been lavishing praise on Frimino recently but many still remember his original views and like to remind him of them. Well, coz that's what we do on this forum don't we?

Why would you assume I need reminding? I wrote it, and thought it, and still stand by it.

I've repackaged fuck all, but if you require any explanation to how things like "thinking" and "evaluation" works in the rational mind, I would direct you to Post Number 62 in this thread, where I articulate it quite clearly.

 

[Mamma Mia]

On a side note, I've been vocal on the Brendan vs Frimino sideshow in the past on here as I was baffled by Brendan's stance toward Frimino. Brendan likes to go early on players and quickly labelled Frimino a 'terrible footballer'. I think the post was 'What a terrible footballer'. He also called him a 'useless flabby melt' and then you have the post Mama Mia posted a few pages back.
Then the argument was cleverly shifted away from Frimino's ability to 'he doesn't score enough goals' but that wasn't his original point. His original point was that Frimino was a terrible footballer. Brendan has repackaged his argument and has been lavishing praise on Frimino recently but many still remember his original views and like to remind him of them. Well, coz that's what we seem do on this forum don't we?

This is exactly it. From where I'm sitting, the backtracking and revisionism is really amusing to watch, especially since Brendan seems to actually believe the stuff he is posting.

 

[manwithnoname]

Ahh, makes sense now. So all those people you argued endlessly with didn't want us to add a player with lots of goals to the team? In that case, you are absolutely right. They must be idiots.

Or for some reason they got the idea that you wanted to replace Bobby with a 20 a season forward.

All just a misunderstanding really.

No misunderstanding on my part. Thankfully Firmino has massively improved this season (so far) and has also increased his goalscoring rate to a more acceptable level; I hope he can maintain it.

And we do now have a 20-plus goal player in Salah, so my long-standing argument that we needed one, and should buy one, has thankfully been answered.

 

[Mamma Mia]

No misunderstanding on my part. Thankfully Firmino has massively improved this season (so far) and has also increased his goalscoring rate to a more acceptable level; I hope he can maintain it.

And we do now have a 20-plus goal player in Salah, so my long-standing argument that we needed one, and should buy one, has thankfully been answered.

Hahaha, you are amazing.

 

[Mamma Mia]

This is the post from Binny that I referred to earlier. This was in July last year, when Bobby was getting a lot of criticism on here.

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/inde...-up-his-goal-tally.105119/page-7#post-1596041

 

[FoxForceFive]

I believe in God so I pray before all games that I’ll be alright. So I prepare on all levels for games.”

He must believe in a different god to Sturridge then.

Or Sturridge is praying wrong.

 

[Mamma Mia]

He must believe in a different god to Sturridge then.

Or Sturridge is praying wrong.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Heh, that was the exact image I was thinking of when I wrote the first sentence!

 

[mark1975]

So basically, Firmino's history has been rewritten by the usual cdnw'ers on here, based on his current form. While the notion last season that we didn't need a prolific attacker has been backtracked all over - we found one by accident everyone! We didn't mean to buy one!

 

[manwithnoname]

So basically, Firmino's history has been rewritten by the usual cdnw'ers on here, based on his current form. While the notion last season that we didn't need a prolific attacker has been backtracked all over - we found one by accident everyone! We didn't mean to buy one!

Hahahahahaha!

You'd think people would be happier, right? Everyone should be happy!

Firmino is playing superbly at the moment, and has equalled his usual total season's tally by January. He should actually get close to that 15-20 goal figure that I demanded, and others predicted he would get last season (mostly based on hope). As long as we don't see his usual goalscoring slump, that is. Fingers crossed.

And we actually do have a reliable source of goals: a plus-20 goal attacker! At last! Again, something I loudly and repeatedly said we really needed, and now have in Salah. Great work Klopp and co!

It's all good in that department now, as long as we keep that form and crucially, the end product: scoring goals (and obviously add more strength in depth so that we don't have to rely on the likes of Ings, Sturridge and Solanke).

It's going great, really.

Now we just have to sort out the long-standing goalkeeping and defensive issues.

 

[Hansern]

This is exactly it. From where I'm sitting, the backtracking and revisionism is really amusing to watch, especially since Brendan seems to actually believe the stuff he is posting.

Its very funny. A big bowl of flabby melted fun

 

[Mamma Mia]

So basically, Firmino's history has been rewritten by the usual cdnw'ers on here, based on his current form. While the notion last season that we didn't need a prolific attacker has been backtracked all over - we found one by accident everyone! We didn't mean to buy one!

I think you should consider dropping the whole cdnw'ers stuff. We're always likely to have differing opinions on here and there will always be posters that are more optimistic or biased than others, but we've also all known each other for fucking ages and we're all reds and we're all individuals.

I think we've outgrown the need to group posters in labeled boxes and not treat each opinion and post on merit.

 

[manwithnoname]

I think you should consider dropping the whole cdnw'ers stuff. We're always likely to have differing opinions on here and there will always be posters that are more optimistic or biased than others, but we've also all known each other for fucking ages and we're all reds and we're all individuals.

I think we've outgrown the need to group posters in labeled boxes and not treat each opinion and post on merit.

Hahahahahaha