Poll Firmino - Is he good enough?

[ILD]

Why would you assume I need reminding? I wrote it, and thought it, and still stand by it.

I've repackaged fuck all, but if you require any explanation to how things like "thinking" and "evaluation" works in the rational mind, I would direct you to Post Number 62 in this thread, where I articulate it quite clearly.

The repackaging of your point was in relation to you moving away from your initial assertion that Frimino was a terrible, fat, pointless footballer to the need for us to recruit a striker who can score goals. That's my understanding of the time line. I did agree we should buy a reliable goalscorer in the summer, it's always good to have one.

I think posts like the ones below stick out as it was such an outlandish position to hold on a player who clearly looked a very talented player.

I fear this flabby, pointless melt is going to be another of those players that some bellends desperately - endlessly - try and convince everyone is actually great, until years of everyone's time has been wasted.

What a terrible footballer.

 

[mark1975]

I think you should consider dropping the whole cdnw'ers stuff. We're always likely to have differing opinions on here and there will always be posters that are more optimistic or biased than others, but we've also all known each other for fucking ages and we're all reds and we're all individuals.

I think we've outgrown the need to group posters in labeled boxes and not treat each opinion and post on merit.

Oh right yeah. That's why Brendan has repeatedly posted recently that Firmino's current form is excellent, yet you (YOU!) want to drag up old posts from last year.

Don't give it the old faux "we're all reds, what does it matter" bollocks, when you're dragging up old posts, to ridicule posters.

 

[ILD]

So basically, Firmino's history has been rewritten by the usual cdnw'ers on here, based on his current form. While the notion last season that we didn't need a prolific attacker has been backtracked all over - we found one by accident everyone! We didn't mean to buy one!

Many thought Frimino was an excellent player but would also welcome a reliable goalscorer. I think some of the cdnw'ers as you call it are pointing out the fact that Brendan didn't rate Frimino as an player, hence the re posting of the flabby melt moniker. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Oh right yeah. That's why Brendan has repeatedly posted recently that Firmino's current form is excellent, yet you (YOU!) want to drag up old posts from last year.

Don't give it the old faux "we're all reds, what does it matter" bollocks, when you're dragging up old posts, to ridicule posters.

Ok, it was just a suggestion.

 

[manwithnoname]

The repackaging of your point was in relation to you moving away from your initial assertion that Frimino was a terrible, fat, pointless footballer to the need for us to recruit a striker who can score goals. That's my understanding of the time line. I did agree we should buy a reliable goalscorer in the summer, it's always good to have one.

I think posts like the ones below stick out as it was such an outlandish position to hold on a player who clearly looked a very talented player.

I fear this flabby, pointless melt is going to be another of those players that some bellends desperately - endlessly - try and convince everyone is actually great, until years of everyone's time has been wasted.

What a terrible footballer.

He did have some truly terrible games, didn't he? Great to see an improvement in his form, goalscoring and consistency so far this season. Perhaps having the burden of scoring alleviated to some extent, by the signing of the prolific goalscorer most of us knew we needed, has helped his game? Whatever, I hope it continues.

 

[Hansern]

I think many thought Frimino was an excellent player but would also welcome a reliable goalscorer. I think some of the cdnw'ers as you call it are pointing out the fact that Brendan didn't rate Frimino as an player, hence the re posting of the flabby melt moniker. That's how I see it anyway.

This is spot on mate.

 

[Mamma Mia]

We've been here before, and Woland called it perfectly then.

The issue has never been about a striker scoring loads of goals. You're all wasting your time debating a point that everyone agrees on. This whole topic is about Brendan's pathological inability to say he was wrong about Firmino being shit.

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/gen-gen-depressing.92323/page-14#post-1507145

 

[ILD]

He did have some truly terrible games, didn't he? Great to see an improvement in his form, goalscoring and consistency so far this season. Perhaps having the burden of scoring alleviated to some extent, by the signing of the prolific goalscorer most of us knew we needed, has helped his game? Whatever, I hope it continues.

Yeah he did have some off games but you could always see his talent.

I think he is really making the team tick and he's one of the first names on the team sheet for me along with Salah. Yep, long may it continue.

 

[manwithnoname]

Many thought Frimino was an excellent player but would also welcome a reliable goalscorer. I think some of the cdnw'ers as you call it are pointing out the fact that Brendan didn't rate Frimino as an player, hence the re posting of the flabby melt moniker. That's how I see it anyway.

Nah, loads and loads of posters over-claimed their expectations for Firmino in terms of goals, but also hilariously seemed to think we didn't need a 20-plus goalscorer at all and didn't think we should buy one.

Luckily Klopp thought along similar lines to me.

 

[Hansern]

I doubt even Klopp deared to hope Salah would have 20 goals in January. He was bought as winger/forward that would add a goals tally similar to Mane I reckon.
His goalscoring stats this season has surely surprised everyone.

Long may it continue.

 

[tombrown]

Is this still going on?

 

[mark1975]

Yeah he did have some off games but you could always see his talent.

I think he is really making the team tick and he's one of the first names on the team sheet for me along with Salah. Yep, long may it continue.

He's a great talent, and I don't think many people disputed that really. When he was the focus of our attack, as the main central striker, I don't think averaging 10 goals a season was a decent return and plenty of centre forwards/strikers have been blasted for that sort of return previously (Kuyt for instance).

When you add that our highest goalscorer was probably getting no more than 12-13 (Coutinho?), it was a problem. Not many people were saying "we need a prolific goalscorer to get Firmino out the team", but that we needed more goals around him. We've done that and we're getting 20+ goals from one source, while Firmino's return has upped.

But the point still stands really. Criticisms from yester-year can't be dismissed as invalid, just because someone then improves. They were valid then, things have changed and the improvement we were looking for has been achieved. If it hadn't been, then yeah it might have been a problem in the longterm.

Thankfully it's sorted and he's getting better and better.

Win Win.

 

[darkstarexodus]

This is only mildly less tedious than the racial comments thread.

 

[Ryan]

ILD nailing this.

 

[FoxForceFive]

This is only mildly less tedious than the racial comments thread.

If it continues I'm gonna start a thread on net spend just for some fucking variety in the tedium.

 

[Ryan]

He's a great talent, and I don't think many people disputed that really. When he was the focus of our attack, as the main central striker, I don't think averaging 10 goals a season was a decent return and plenty of centre forwards/strikers have been blasted for that sort of return previously (Kuyt for instance).
.

Erm, they did.

Hence the fucking point of the last 4 pages of debate.

As ILD has rightly pointed out, you can't be giving it the whole "I was concerned about his lack of consistent goal return and pointed that out" when that's a load of dressed-up bollocks.

If you're going to vociferously denigrate the player, and anyone who dared to support him, as well as ruing just about every match thread with your tired, repetitive bollocks about him and his supposed lack of contribution - for years, only to give it some mealy-mouthed about-face when you're shown to have been wrong - then people are going to laugh at you for it.

Which is what is happening. Brendan's been made to look like a dick, and he knows it. Thankfully for him though - by somehow weirdly trying to proffer excuses for him, you're coming out of this looking worse than him.

 

[Oncy]

Who cares ffs

 

[Ryan]

Mark.

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't think so Ryan.

You seem as confused as, well, let's try and find a useful comparison....ah! As confused as you occasionally do when using an unfamiliar word and hoping you've used it correctly.

And haven't

 

[Ryan]

That's a brilliant retort Brendan.

 

[darkstarexodus]

If it continues I'm gonna start a thread on net spend just for some fucking variety in the tedium.

We haven't had a good Lucas thread in a while either.

 

[Dreambeliever]

If anyone asked me what's SCM like to post on I would point them to this thread.

Sums up the place perfectly.

Firmino has arguably the most improved player in the squad this season so it's understandable why anyone that questioned his contribution last year have changed their tune, even Brendan.

It's just funny seen some of the bigger hitters on the forum going at it as opposed to usual rubbish where less respected posters get belittled by apparent experts.

Firmino was always part of a wider discussion last season which was, we needed a more potent attack for tight games where we only had a couple of chances and we were not converting them. Firmino being the main culprit as our no9.

Southampton away is a perfect example. Tight game 0-0, he's put clean through and pokes wide and we drop valuable points.

There were people who rubbished the claim saying all we needed to do was sort out the defense and we would be unbeatable. StevieM was one of the posters that springs to mind on that side of the debate.

There were posters who said we needed another attacker who could unlock defenses and bring more goals to the team in those games where teams park the bus.

That had the likes of Mark, Brendan and I.

And then you had everything in between.

Luckily for us we have got both, Salah has added goals and that spark of creativity we missed, now VVD has hopefully added the steel at the back.

Firmino's form has improved massively and I think its mainly down to playing in the no9 role every week (He often played wide left last year was shite there), Salah coming in and lifting the whole team ND Coutinho playing his best football for us.

 

[FoxForceFive]

When Dreamy comes in & explains the thread & debate perfectly you all damn well know its clear cut.

No offence Pat!

 

[Mamma Mia]

So what do we think is behind his improved form, aside from losing all that weight of course?

Are we looking at an improved player who is more settled and comfortable? Purple patch of form? A run of 'luck' as Rosco alluded to earlier? Good coaching? Having Salah in the team?

I guess it's a mix of all of those. Anything else?

 

[Dreambeliever]

So what do we think is behind his improved form, aside from losing all that weight of course?

Are we looking at an improved player who is more settled and comfortable? Purple patch of form? A run of 'luck' as Rosco alluded to earlier? Good coaching? Having Salah in the team?

I guess it's a mix of all of those. Anything else?

Coutinho staying fit and playing his best football, having pace, skill and intelligent running either side in him with Salah and Mane.

Essentially we are much better attacking side this season both in terms of strongest 11( sorry Ryan) and in terms of depth.

Before Coutinho left we had him, Firmino, Salah, Mane, Ox, Solanke, Ings, Woodburn and Sturridge all viewing for a starting place or to come off the bench.

Now we can add Lallana to that too.

Last year we had Mane, Coutinho, Firmino and Sturridge and Lallana.

The only real pace we had was Mane, this year we have Salah and the Ox stretching teams and creating space for Firmino.

If you are going to pick up a Liverpool attacker the order of danger would probably go

Salah
Coutinho
Mane
Firmino

So it's no surprise he is getting more space, more time, more opportunities and as a result more goals.

I think what made his goal the other day look so damn good was absolutely nobody would have expected him to be able to do it.

It was the moment I think every fan stood up and said fuck me we have a real finisher here.

 

[Dreambeliever]

When Dreamy comes in & explains the thread & debate perfectly you all damn well know its clear cut.

No offence Pat!

All good, I never usually take the time to articulate my posts properly and hence get abused for it 😀

 

[Ryan]

So what do we think is behind his improved form, aside from losing all that weight of course?

Are we looking at an improved player who is more settled and comfortable? Purple patch of form? A run of 'luck' as Rosco alluded to earlier? Good coaching? Having Salah in the team?

I guess it's a mix of all of those. Anything else?

Him being a really fucking good football player probably has a bit to do with it.

 

[rurikbird]

I’m bothered by the thread title - I think we are way past the argument of whether Bobby is “good enough” for LFC and now the only question is whether moving him deeper and playing someone like Salah (or Aubameyang) in front of him would make even more of his abilities. I think the OP meant to focus on that, but the title suggests something else.

Firmino reminds me a bit of Ruud Gullit, whom I admittedly didn’t get to see much, but the glimpses of what I saw of him - kind of an all-around player with unique offensive, defensive and physical qualities who, rather than adjusting his game to demands of a particular position, simply plays the game his way wherever he is on the pitch; somebody whose range of talents transcends a specific role. He is way too much of a free spirit to become the kind of precise cold-blooded finisher that Brendan and a few others prefer (not entirely without justification, it has to be said) to see playing up front and that quality can be frustrating at times - even against City (where he was otherwise magnificent) he lost the ball a couple of times in the closing stages by trying something fancy when the logic of the game needed him to play simply and reliably. I guess that part will never go away and it’s just a reflection of who he is - good and bad, but mostly really, really good.

Where Brendan was dead wrong was in denying Firmino’s ABILITY to be a good finisher - focusing on the relatively low scoring numbers of his first 2 seasons in England as the only evidence that matters and entirely ignoring the obvious technical ability, work-rate and tactical acumen that should have eventually resulted in better stats, his previous higher scoring numbers in Germany and the possibility of improvement with age and due to Klopp’s coaching - Brendan practically made it his mission to ridicule everyone who dared to suggest that Firmino might become a 15-20 goals a season striker and dismiss them as hopelessly naive at best. Now that Firmino is well on his way to doing exactly what Brendan’s objects of scorn were arguing he was capable of, he is trying to turn around and adopt the pose of “a dispassionate objective observer responding to change of evidence,” which is rather amusing to watch.

The question in the poll doesn’t have much to do with Firmino - it’s all about whether we think the likes of Sturridge, Ings, Origi, Solanke and Woodburn (sadly not Brewster any more as he will be sidelined for an extended period of time) are good enough to deputize or complement Firmino - and presently the consensus is that they are not.

 

[Hansern]

Great post Rurik

 

[i_rushie]

Just change the thread title and stop pretending that this is a thread about Firmino's ability. After all the posters on his side last season were and remain confident in his ability. The ones who weren't, are now in agreement (some might suspect rather begrudgingly) that he's been performing at a high level. There's no real dispute about Firmino.

No this thread is really about some (most) posters exacting some tit for tat on that shameless tit Brendan, who only feels good about himself when denigrating someone else.