watching Lucas play

[themn]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996236#msg996236 date=1258978104]
[quote author=themn link=topic=37348.msg996224#msg996224 date=1258974974]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

More frustrated watching Mascherano than Lucas ?

What a cluster fuck of a post.
[/quote]


once again you fail to read a post correctly in the context it is written in, what the fuck has happened to you

I get less frustrated with Lucas because I know how shit he is, he is never going to get any better, Rafa picks him and is more to blame than Lucas himself

Masher is supposed to be a world class CM, worth a fortune yet other top PL teams have CM who can do more that tackle, they contribute to the teams scoring chances ETC

He is overrated as an overall footballer, Lucas is just pants so less frustrating just pants and will never improve


[/quote]

Yep, that told me. Shit whatever shall I do ?

Failure to read a post correctly.............LOL !

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996304#msg996304 date=1258983615]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

[/quote]
It was 2 in the middle behind 2 strikers.
More like a diamond when Mascher was playing as he's more a Defensive Midfielder.
A bit more a flat midfield when Alonso was playing as he's more a typical Central Midfielder.
We still had a midfielder playing behind 2 strikers. Keane scored 3 in 2 games and he was shipped out. The end of our title hopes.
Typical Rafa.

 

[Fox]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]


as opposed to all the clean sheets we are getting with our current formation

This current system does not work with the players we have so something needs to change

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996306#msg996306 date=1258983941]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996304#msg996304 date=1258983615]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

[/quote]
It was 2 in the middle behind 2 strikers.
More like a diamond when Mascher was playing as he's more a Defensive Midfielder.
A bit more a flat midfield when Alonso was playing as he's more a typical Central Midfielder.
We still had a midfielder playing behind 2 strikers. Keane scored 3 in 2 games and he was shipped out. The end of our title hopes.
Typical Rafa.
[/quote]

We also drew with Stoke, Fulham and West Ham at home playing that way, scoring 0 goals.

Our good run of results to the top of the league last season had nothing to do with playing 2 CMs behind 2 forwards.

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=37348.msg996317#msg996317 date=1258984920]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996306#msg996306 date=1258983941]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996304#msg996304 date=1258983615]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

[/quote]
It was 2 in the middle behind 2 strikers.
More like a diamond when Mascher was playing as he's more a Defensive Midfielder.
A bit more a flat midfield when Alonso was playing as he's more a typical Central Midfielder.
We still had a midfielder playing behind 2 strikers. Keane scored 3 in 2 games and he was shipped out. The end of our title hopes.
Typical Rafa.
[/quote]

We also drew with Stoke, Fulham and West Ham at home playing that way, scoring 0 goals.

Our good run of results to the top of the league last season had nothing to do with playing 2 CMs behind 2 forwards.
[/quote]
Baffling and too late substitutions in those games.
But of course its the yanks fault if Rafa brings a Defender on for a striker 10 minutes before the end of the match at home.

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996324#msg996324 date=1258985782]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=37348.msg996317#msg996317 date=1258984920]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996306#msg996306 date=1258983941]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996304#msg996304 date=1258983615]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

[/quote]
It was 2 in the middle behind 2 strikers.
More like a diamond when Mascher was playing as he's more a Defensive Midfielder.
A bit more a flat midfield when Alonso was playing as he's more a typical Central Midfielder.
We still had a midfielder playing behind 2 strikers. Keane scored 3 in 2 games and he was shipped out. The end of our title hopes.
Typical Rafa.
[/quote]

We also drew with Stoke, Fulham and West Ham at home playing that way, scoring 0 goals.

Our good run of results to the top of the league last season had nothing to do with playing 2 CMs behind 2 forwards.
[/quote]
Baffling and too late substitutions in those games.
But of course its the yanks fault if Rafa brings a Defender on for a striker 10 minutes before the end of the match at home.
[/quote]

Oh, doesn't your suggestion that we needed the correct substitutions in those matches an admittance that your one-size-fits-all formation isn't perhaps the answer like you (constantly) say it is?

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996312#msg996312 date=1258984634]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]


as opposed to all the clean sheets we are getting with our current formation

This current system does not work with the players we have so something needs to change
[/quote]

You're speaking to someone who wanted a Gerrard and Mascherano partnership from the opening game; my point is when they're paired together we don't play as a midfield diamond in the traditional sense. Anyway, it's as dull as dishwater debate.

 

[rage]

we haven't really got two strikers that could play in any form of a 442.

maybe kuyt slightly deeper than torres but i don't really think he has what it takes to be the deeper striker and definitely not the frontman like torres.

i know its gone and its looking back at what could have been but with our attacking fullback in johnson i'd have loved us to secure barry earlier and played 433. that way we'd have been a attacking left back short of a pretty good first 11 and have strength in depth as well.

reina
johnson carra agger aurelio/inusa
gerrard masch barry
kuyt torres riera/yossi

maybe aquilani can play on the left of a 3 - i don't get the impression he's that sort of player.

most importantly, lucas would have better protection if he played alongside 2 quality midfielders and would have the chance to grow as a player - whilst many of us don't see anything good in him rafa clearly does and this boy will be a regular in our team for the rest of the season. good or bad rafa is stubborn and he will continue with lucas

 

[manwithnoname]

most importantly, lucas would have better protection if he played alongside 2 quality midfielders and would have the chance to grow as a player - whilst many of us don't see anything good in him rafa clearly does and this boy will be a regular in our team for the rest of the season. good or bad rafa is stubborn and he will continue with lucas

Hahahahaha!

So now we're saying that Lucas needs TWO other quality Central Midfielders playing alongside him.

I'm not disagreeing, but perhaps we should just field 6 CMs every game, in order to make Lucas look like less of a useless twat.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=rage link=topic=37348.msg996394#msg996394 date=1258991856]
we haven't really got two strikers that could play in any form of a 442.

maybe kuyt slightly deeper than torres but i don't really think he has what it takes to be the deeper striker and definitely not the frontman like torres.


[/quote]

Don't agree with that. Obviously we're lacking in attacking options but the idea that you must have one 'deeper striker' and one 'front man' isn't correct - it's just one way of doing things.

Look at Anelka & Drogba of Chelsea or Jones and Bent of Sunderland, arguably two of the best strike partnerships in the league at present, none of them are your typical withdrawn striker.

 

[SummerOnions]

However shite Lucas may or may not be, he's been all we've had there, so we as well back him rather than jumping on his case for every fuck up.

Cos lets face it, his case would be fucking battered if that was the case.

 

[Squiggles]

We've had Gerrard and Mascherano there.

And I don't buy into the 'let's get behind him' shtick. It's an Internet forum, which he doesn't read, so really it makes fuck all difference.

 

[KopKing]

Shame about the missed chance, a winning goal would have done his confidence a world of good.

 

[manwithnoname]

I wish he did read it

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996479#msg996479 date=1259001619]
We've had Gerrard and Mascherano there.

And I don't buy into the 'let's get behind him' shtick. It's an Internet forum, which he doesn't read, so really it makes fuck all difference.
[/quote]

Maybe so, but by that point, are you actually looking for any positives?

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37348.msg996492#msg996492 date=1259002547]
I wish he did read it
[/quote]

He'd probably try to buy a macbook, and end up buying a set of barbie dolls or something.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37348.msg996500#msg996500 date=1259004127]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996479#msg996479 date=1259001619]
We've had Gerrard and Mascherano there.

And I don't buy into the 'let's get behind him' shtick. It's an Internet forum, which he doesn't read, so really it makes fuck all difference.
[/quote]

Maybe so, but by that point, are you actually looking for any positives?
[/quote]

I've got no agenda against Lucas, I just don't rate him at all.

It's his third season here and he's proved he's not fit to wear the shirt. Off in the summer please.

 

[SummerOnions]

Fair enough.

I'll be majorly surprised if anyone wants him for an acceptable fee though.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996306#msg996306 date=1258983941]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996304#msg996304 date=1258983615]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37348.msg996294#msg996294 date=1258982874]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
[/quote]

I don't recall us being set up like that.

Whenever Gerrard and Mascherano play together they've obviously got different roles and licences to go forward and whatever, but it's never really been a diamond formation as you're suggesting.

[/quote]
It was 2 in the middle behind 2 strikers.
More like a diamond when Mascher was playing as he's more a Defensive Midfielder.
A bit more a flat midfield when Alonso was playing as he's more a typical Central Midfielder.
We still had a midfielder playing behind 2 strikers. Keane scored 3 in 2 games and he was shipped out. The end of our title hopes.
Typical Rafa.
[/quote]

Mascherano hardly played in our side prior to Xmas last year, and when he did was was dreadful.

You're wrong, AGAIN.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37348.msg996544#msg996544 date=1259008746]
Fair enough.

I'll be majorly surprised if anyone wants him for an acceptable fee though.
[/quote]

He'd be worth the £4-5M, which is about his value, for some club.

Rafa wouldn't accept it, though.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995944#msg995944 date=1258935149]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995940#msg995940 date=1258934676]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995937#msg995937 date=1258934128]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995933#msg995933 date=1258933835]
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
[/quote]

Well it's not really Lucas' job to summarise where all our players are (and whether they're "all over the f*&king shop&quot😉 at all stages of the game. The game does move quite fast these days I guess he saw Skrtel unmarked in the box, and therefore let Ireland go, as it would then be Skrtels' job to pick him up. As I've said before - it happens umpteen times in every game.

You could argue that Lucas 'let Ireland run', of course you could, and you'd be right. But he did so, because that's what midfielders do when there are free central defenders, and the midfielders themselves trying to retain shape.
[/quote]

Actually, it's everyone's job to determine where they are most needed on the pitch as determined by the play that is unfolding at the time. Especially when defending desperately in or around your own box.

Skrtel never even saw Ireland until he watched him score, and Lucas should have seen that. He is, after all, "running" towards the developing play, and should be able to see what's happening and react accordingly. We all let midfielders run, at every level, but it's got to depend on the circumstances. You don't always let them go, just becasue the the CB should be there. Neither do I. Neither should Lucas have.

If the CM sees that his man is unmarked and unseen by the CB, he can't let him go. You know that as well as I do.
[/quote]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

How can Ireland be "umarked by the CB" before Lucas has even "let him go"?

You seem to be under the assumption that players recognise everythign that goes on during an unfolding piece of play, have peripheral vision, and thuis make the right decisions accordingly. You can judge Lucas however you please, but in 'reactionary' positions of play, players do what they're trained to do, what they normally do, and what they're instructed to do. ie.e recognise a free centre back and thus pass the opposition player on.

What you're trying to insinuate is that Lucas should have done all of the above, whilst the play was still unfolding, but should have gauged Skrtels state of mind better, which is frankly nonsense.

Skrtel was in the right position physically, but not mentally. Not Lucas' fault.
[/quote]

That's all good in theory, but so many goals are scored from Midfielders running from deep who aren't tracked by their markers. CB's should be taking care of centre forwards.

Scholes was a master at it and Ireland's run was magic. It's easy to play the "he passed him on" card but if you do that you should making sure Skrtel sees it. I don't think he did. It Lucas had gone with him there wouldn't have been a goal. I agree CM need to pass players on but I don't think it should be happening inside the 18 yard box ever!

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996713#msg996713 date=1259014147]
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37348.msg996544#msg996544 date=1259008746]
Fair enough.

I'll be majorly surprised if anyone wants him for an acceptable fee though.
[/quote]

He'd be worth the £4-5M, which is about his value, for some club.

Rafa wouldn't accept it, though.
[/quote]

Yep.
I read somewhere he said he wanted £14M for him. he'd laugh all the way to the bank if he ever got that.

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37348.msg996831#msg996831 date=1259018525]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996713#msg996713 date=1259014147]
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37348.msg996544#msg996544 date=1259008746]
Fair enough.

I'll be majorly surprised if anyone wants him for an acceptable fee though.
[/quote]

He'd be worth the £4-5M, which is about his value, for some club.

Rafa wouldn't accept it, though.
[/quote]

Yep.
I read somewhere he said he wanted £14M for him. he'd laugh all the way to the bank if he ever got that.
[/quote]

Where on earth did you read that?

I'm with the majority who believe Lucas isn't good enough to play a major role at this club, but he HAS become a better player in his time here. Nowhere near the improvement hoped for or expected, but still improved. He's worth a BARE minimum of 6 M GBP and up to 8-9 M from a Spanish or Italian team (depending on the club), I would think.

 

[Mistadobalina]

Well he came here as Brasilian player of the year and had the world at his feet. He will leave as a player who cant cut the mustard in the premiership.

Even if his performances have improve from terrible to average, Hes not worth what we paid for him now I would say.

If we got offered over 5 million id take it.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Is there anyone out there who can take a really decent stab at why a man who knows a lot about football - Rafa - continues to think that Lucas is a player that works well for Liverpool, when most of us clearly think that he does not?

Most posters here usually offer nothing more about Lucas other than he is:

1) a cunt
2) shit
3) a useless twat

OK. Great. Can someone please help and offer me more insight than that?

 

[Ryan]

I've done it before, I can't be fucking arsed doing it again.

 

[Mistadobalina]

[quote author=Dirty Sanchez link=topic=37348.msg997021#msg997021 date=1259029251]
Is there anyone out there who can take a really decent stab at why a man who knows a lot about football - Rafa - continues to think that Lucas is a player that works well for Liverpool, when most of us clearly think that he does not?

Most posters here usually offer nothing more about Lucas other than he is:

1) a cunt
2) shit
3) a useless twat

OK. Great. Can someone please help and offer me more insight than that?
[/quote]

He looks good in training?

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Dirty Sanchez link=topic=37348.msg997021#msg997021 date=1259029251]
Is there anyone out there who can take a really decent stab at why a man who knows a lot about football - Rafa - continues to think that Lucas is a player that works well for Liverpool, when most of us clearly think that he does not?

Most posters here usually offer nothing more about Lucas other than he is:

1) a cunt
2) shit
3) a useless twat

OK. Great. Can someone please help and offer me more insight than that?
[/quote]

Don't let the fact that, with three or four regular exceptions, most all of us do just that when discussing him, dissuade you from offered up that little gem.

Like we've done for much of this thread, for example - Those of us who think he's limited explain why, as does Ryan, who disagrees with us about that.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg997023#msg997023 date=1259029348]
I've done it before, I can't be fucking arsed doing it again.
[/quote]

Sorry. I guess I couldn't be arsed to read the entire thread.