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watching Lucas play

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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995907#msg995907 date=1258932676]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995900#msg995900 date=1258931950]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995708#msg995708 date=1258917234]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995695#msg995695 date=1258915608]
Lucas was one of our better players on the pitch yesterday. If some people took their blinkers off they might see that Skrtel was a joke for their goal and Insua cant hold an offside line.

[/quote]

Do you disagree that Lucas allowed Ireland to run, unmarked into the box to score?
[/quote]

I agree he let Ireland run
[/quote]

Yes, and no Rory.

He did let Ireland run, but I think the feeling was that he could afford to given Skrtel was there. At times, midfielders let others past them as they have to keep their midfield shape. Players pass other players on. Lucas did it earlier in the game when Agger was off injured, and Masher was filling in a right-back. Barry ran past him, and Lucas didn't go as it was then the responsibility of the defender (Masher at that stage) to tuck in and pick barry up. at the time Masher, being comepletely inexperienced in the role, missed out on it completely and Barry was totally free and unmarked (really clever play by Barry that actually).

Anyway, it's the sort of thing that happens a million times per game with zero consequences. Had Carra been playing in the centre, it would have lead to nothing cos he'd have either picked Ireland up, or done a better job in the Kygriakos-role and not let Tevez square the ball.

Midfielders can't just follow runenrs all over the park, at billions of stages in the game they pass oppositions players on, so as to hold shape. I blame Skrtel in this instance for not picking up Ireland quicker. Kygriakos was slightly at fault too for the relative ease Tevez (i think) had in getting the ball across the box.

It'll come across like I'm relieving Lucas cos I don't mind him I know, but I fully blame Skrtel.
[/quote]

Thanks Ryan for that - you printed what I wanted to print but was too lazy.

I was asked if I thought he let him run unmarked to score the goal.

I answered that I agreed he let him run ............. I didnt agree that he let him go unmarked and was the reason for the goal.

I think players do pass on in that situation. I'd like to see again as to whether Lucas was right to let him go, I'm not sure.
 
Well, he should have scored the fucking header at the death, yes. No arguments there.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995907#msg995907 date=1258932676]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995900#msg995900 date=1258931950]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995708#msg995708 date=1258917234]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995695#msg995695 date=1258915608]
Lucas was one of our better players on the pitch yesterday. If some people took their blinkers off they might see that Skrtel was a joke for their goal and Insua cant hold an offside line.

[/quote]

Do you disagree that Lucas allowed Ireland to run, unmarked into the box to score?
[/quote]

I agree he let Ireland run
[/quote]

Yes, and no Rory.

He did let Ireland run, but I think the feeling was that he could afford to given Skrtel was there. At times, midfielders let others past them as they have to keep their midfield shape. Players pass other players on. Lucas did it earlier in the game when Agger was off injured, and Masher was filling in a right-back. Barry ran past him, and Lucas didn't go as it was then the responsibility of the defender (Masher at that stage) to tuck in and pick barry up. at the time Masher, being comepletely inexperienced in the role, missed out on it completely and Barry was totally free and unmarked (really clever play by Barry that actually).

Anyway, it's the sort of thing that happens a million times per game with zero consequences. Had Carra been playing in the centre, it would have lead to nothing cos he'd have either picked Ireland up, or done a better job in the Kygriakos-role and not let Tevez square the ball.

Midfielders can't just follow runenrs all over the park, at billions of stages in the game they pass oppositions players on, so as to hold shape. I blame Skrtel in this instance for not picking up Ireland quicker. Kygriakos was slightly at fault too for the relative ease Tevez (i think) had in getting the ball across the box.

It'll come across like I'm relieving Lucas cos I don't mind him I know, but I fully blame Skrtel.
[/quote]

Skytrl wasn't there.

Watch it again... First, Lucas didn't even see him as he ran in behind him initially. Then, when Lucas did see him, he should have seen that Skyrtl was all over the f#$!ing shop and nowhere near Ireland, and sprinted to cover him. Instead, he continued to simply stand and watch him score.

You can't apportion all of the blame on Skyrtl there. Lucas played a large part in it too.
 
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995920#msg995920 date=1258933097]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995907#msg995907 date=1258932676]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995900#msg995900 date=1258931950]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995708#msg995708 date=1258917234]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995695#msg995695 date=1258915608]
Lucas was one of our better players on the pitch yesterday. If some people took their blinkers off they might see that Skrtel was a joke for their goal and Insua cant hold an offside line.

[/quote]

Do you disagree that Lucas allowed Ireland to run, unmarked into the box to score?
[/quote]

I agree he let Ireland run
[/quote]

Yes, and no Rory.

He did let Ireland run, but I think the feeling was that he could afford to given Skrtel was there. At times, midfielders let others past them as they have to keep their midfield shape. Players pass other players on. Lucas did it earlier in the game when Agger was off injured, and Masher was filling in a right-back. Barry ran past him, and Lucas didn't go as it was then the responsibility of the defender (Masher at that stage) to tuck in and pick barry up. at the time Masher, being comepletely inexperienced in the role, missed out on it completely and Barry was totally free and unmarked (really clever play by Barry that actually).

Anyway, it's the sort of thing that happens a million times per game with zero consequences. Had Carra been playing in the centre, it would have lead to nothing cos he'd have either picked Ireland up, or done a better job in the Kygriakos-role and not let Tevez square the ball.

Midfielders can't just follow runenrs all over the park, at billions of stages in the game they pass oppositions players on, so as to hold shape. I blame Skrtel in this instance for not picking up Ireland quicker. Kygriakos was slightly at fault too for the relative ease Tevez (i think) had in getting the ball across the box.

It'll come across like I'm relieving Lucas cos I don't mind him I know, but I fully blame Skrtel.
[/quote]

Thanks Ryan for that - you printed what I wanted to print but was too lazy.

I was asked if I thought he let him run unmarked to score the goal.

I answered that I agreed he let him run ............. I didnt agree that he let him go unmarked and was the reason for the goal.

I think players do pass on in that situation. I'd like to see again as to whether Lucas was right to let him go, I'm not sure.
[/quote]

He was allowed to run free, and he scored, unmarked.

Not all his fault, but a large part of it.

In theory, I understand your "players let players go to keep shape" stance. Unfortunately, midfield shape isn't important when there's an opponent unmarked in the six-yeard box.
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995930#msg995930 date=1258933476]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995907#msg995907 date=1258932676]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995900#msg995900 date=1258931950]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995708#msg995708 date=1258917234]
[quote author=Rory Fitzgerald link=topic=37348.msg995695#msg995695 date=1258915608]
Lucas was one of our better players on the pitch yesterday. If some people took their blinkers off they might see that Skrtel was a joke for their goal and Insua cant hold an offside line.

[/quote]

Do you disagree that Lucas allowed Ireland to run, unmarked into the box to score?
[/quote]

I agree he let Ireland run
[/quote]

Yes, and no Rory.

He did let Ireland run, but I think the feeling was that he could afford to given Skrtel was there. At times, midfielders let others past them as they have to keep their midfield shape. Players pass other players on. Lucas did it earlier in the game when Agger was off injured, and Masher was filling in a right-back. Barry ran past him, and Lucas didn't go as it was then the responsibility of the defender (Masher at that stage) to tuck in and pick barry up. at the time Masher, being comepletely inexperienced in the role, missed out on it completely and Barry was totally free and unmarked (really clever play by Barry that actually).

Anyway, it's the sort of thing that happens a million times per game with zero consequences. Had Carra been playing in the centre, it would have lead to nothing cos he'd have either picked Ireland up, or done a better job in the Kygriakos-role and not let Tevez square the ball.

Midfielders can't just follow runenrs all over the park, at billions of stages in the game they pass oppositions players on, so as to hold shape. I blame Skrtel in this instance for not picking up Ireland quicker. Kygriakos was slightly at fault too for the relative ease Tevez (i think) had in getting the ball across the box.

It'll come across like I'm relieving Lucas cos I don't mind him I know, but I fully blame Skrtel.
[/quote]

Skytrl wasn't there.

Watch it again... First, Lucas didn't even see him as he ran in behind him initially. Then, when Lucas did see him, he should have seen that Skyrtl was all over the f#$!ing shop and nowhere near Ireland, and sprinted to cover him. Instead, he continued to simply stand and watch him score.

You can't apportion all of the blame on Skyrtl there. Lucas played a large part in it too.
[/quote]

What do you mean "Skrtel wasn't there"?

Skrtel was a free centre back in the 18 yard box, it's his fucking job to identify opposition players and negate them.
 
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
 
Let's face it, Lucas gets some unnecessary stick at times but if you focus just on him, well, he's average. On School Sport's Day, he'd be the last of "I'll have him" before you started getting into the "I'll have Timothy next."
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995933#msg995933 date=1258933835]
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
[/quote]

Well it's not really Lucas' job to summarise where all our players are (and whether they're "all over the f*&king shop&quot😉 at all stages of the game. The game does move quite fast these days I guess he saw Skrtel unmarked in the box, and therefore let Ireland go, as it would then be Skrtels' job to pick him up. As I've said before - it happens umpteen times in every game.

You could argue that Lucas 'let Ireland run', of course you could, and you'd be right. But he did so, because that's what midfielders do when there are free central defenders, and the midfielders themselves trying to retain shape.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995937#msg995937 date=1258934128]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995933#msg995933 date=1258933835]
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
[/quote]

Well it's not really Lucas' job to summarise where all our players are (and whether they're "all over the f*&king shop&quot😉 at all stages of the game. The game does move quite fast these days I guess he saw Skrtel unmarked in the box, and therefore let Ireland go, as it would then be Skrtels' job to pick him up. As I've said before - it happens umpteen times in every game.

You could argue that Lucas 'let Ireland run', of course you could, and you'd be right. But he did so, because that's what midfielders do when there are free central defenders, and the midfielders themselves trying to retain shape.
[/quote]

Actually, it's everyone's job to determine where they are most needed on the pitch as determined by the play that is unfolding at the time. Especially when defending desperately in or around your own box.

Skrtel never even saw Ireland until he watched him score, and Lucas should have seen that. He is, after all, "running" towards the developing play, and should be able to see what's happening and react accordingly. We all let midfielders run, at every level, but it's got to depend on the circumstances. You don't always let them go, just becasue the the CB should be there. Neither do I. Neither should Lucas have.

If the CM sees that his man is unmarked and unseen by the CB, he can't let him go. You know that as well as I do.
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995940#msg995940 date=1258934676]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995937#msg995937 date=1258934128]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995933#msg995933 date=1258933835]
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
[/quote]

Well it's not really Lucas' job to summarise where all our players are (and whether they're "all over the f*&king shop&quot😉 at all stages of the game. The game does move quite fast these days I guess he saw Skrtel unmarked in the box, and therefore let Ireland go, as it would then be Skrtels' job to pick him up. As I've said before - it happens umpteen times in every game.

You could argue that Lucas 'let Ireland run', of course you could, and you'd be right. But he did so, because that's what midfielders do when there are free central defenders, and the midfielders themselves trying to retain shape.
[/quote]

Actually, it's everyone's job to determine where they are most needed on the pitch as determined by the play that is unfolding at the time. Especially when defending desperately in or around your own box.

Skrtel never even saw Ireland until he watched him score, and Lucas should have seen that. He is, after all, "running" towards the developing play, and should be able to see what's happening and react accordingly. We all let midfielders run, at every level, but it's got to depend on the circumstances. You don't always let them go, just becasue the the CB should be there. Neither do I. Neither should Lucas have.

If the CM sees that his man is unmarked and unseen by the CB, he can't let him go. You know that as well as I do.
[/quote]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

How can Ireland be "umarked by the CB" before Lucas has even "let him go"?

You seem to be under the assumption that players recognise everythign that goes on during an unfolding piece of play, have peripheral vision, and thuis make the right decisions accordingly. You can judge Lucas however you please, but in 'reactionary' positions of play, players do what they're trained to do, what they normally do, and what they're instructed to do. ie.e recognise a free centre back and thus pass the opposition player on.

What you're trying to insinuate is that Lucas should have done all of the above, whilst the play was still unfolding, but should have gauged Skrtels state of mind better, which is frankly nonsense.

Skrtel was in the right position physically, but not mentally. Not Lucas' fault.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995944#msg995944 date=1258935149]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995940#msg995940 date=1258934676]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37348.msg995937#msg995937 date=1258934128]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37348.msg995933#msg995933 date=1258933835]
I mean that he wasn't where he should have been in that case, and Lucas should have recognised that and gotten to Ireland.

Like I already said.
[/quote]

Well it's not really Lucas' job to summarise where all our players are (and whether they're "all over the f*&king shop&quot😉 at all stages of the game. The game does move quite fast these days I guess he saw Skrtel unmarked in the box, and therefore let Ireland go, as it would then be Skrtels' job to pick him up. As I've said before - it happens umpteen times in every game.

You could argue that Lucas 'let Ireland run', of course you could, and you'd be right. But he did so, because that's what midfielders do when there are free central defenders, and the midfielders themselves trying to retain shape.
[/quote]

Actually, it's everyone's job to determine where they are most needed on the pitch as determined by the play that is unfolding at the time. Especially when defending desperately in or around your own box.

Skrtel never even saw Ireland until he watched him score, and Lucas should have seen that. He is, after all, "running" towards the developing play, and should be able to see what's happening and react accordingly. We all let midfielders run, at every level, but it's got to depend on the circumstances. You don't always let them go, just becasue the the CB should be there. Neither do I. Neither should Lucas have.

If the CM sees that his man is unmarked and unseen by the CB, he can't let him go. You know that as well as I do.
[/quote]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

How can Ireland be "umarked by the CB" before Lucas has even "let him go"?

You seem to be under the assumption that players recognise everythign that goes on during an unfolding piece of play, have peripheral vision, and thuis make the right decisions accordingly. You can judge Lucas however you please, but in 'reactionary' positions of play, players do what they're trained to do, what they normally do, and what they're instructed to do. ie.e recognise a free centre back and thus pass the opposition player on.

What you're trying to insinuate is that Lucas should have done all of the above, whilst the play was still unfolding, but should have gauged Skrtels state of mind better, which is frankly nonsense.

Skrtel was in the right position physically, but not mentally. Not Lucas' fault.
[/quote]

Poor choice of wording on my part there... Change the words bolded to "he has to try to get there", then.

When you pass a player on, do you tend to ensure that the player to whom you're passing him is aware that he's being passed a player? I do. Otherwise, I run with him, particularly if he's headed straight towards our goal and (if I stop running) he'd otherwise be unmarked.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm flat out saying that Lucas should have picked up Ireland, because he should have seen that Skrtel had no clue he was behind him, and he (Lucas) was looking straight at that area of the field.

I'm saying that Skrtel AND Lucas share the blame for the 2nd goal.
 
Of course! He didn't track Ireland on purpose, and instead stood there like a fucking cabbage as the player waltzed past him, because he didn't want the midfield to lose shape.

Well done Lucas, again.

Tactically astute as ever

Jesus wept.
 
The conversation's moved past "he's a cunt" Brendan, so I'm not sure there's anything you can add here now.
 
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

Macsherano had a very good game, drove forward well, and produced some decent passes.

He was miles better than Lucarse.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37348.msg996185#msg996185 date=1258971479]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

Macsherano had a very good game, drove forward well, and produced some decent passes.

He was miles better than Lucarse.
[/quote]


of course he was better, he is a better player nobody can deny that.

I simply cannot accept that we have a £20million player in midfield who offers nothing going forward, no other top team has this situation.

He needs to do more for the attackers, Lucas simply is not good enough Masher is supposed to be world class. Breaking up play is not enough for a world class player.

Our rivals in the PL have their entire midfield capable of scoring, assists ETC
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37348.msg996217#msg996217 date=1258973963]
Our rivals in the PL have their entire midfield capable of scoring, assists ETC
Click to expand...

Apart from when Chelsea won titles with Claude Makelele
[/quote]

Just my thoughts as well, when he played for Real Madrid too.
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

More frustrated watching Mascherano than Lucas ?

What a cluster fuck of a post.
 
Masher was excellent on Saturday. He really tried to get the team going and is making a concerted effort to open up his passing range in the absence of Alonso and ineffectiveness of Lucas.
 
Im fed up of seeing his name on the teamsheet and him dilly-dallying on the ball. Could a half fit Aquilani really not offer this side any more than Lucas is doing right now?
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37348.msg996217#msg996217 date=1258973963]
Our rivals in the PL have their entire midfield capable of scoring, assists ETC
Click to expand...

Apart from when Chelsea won titles with Claude Makelele
[/quote]

haha how pathetic bringing the old Claude card out, the only example you could find ever.

I said in my masher thread a few weeks ago that he was the only one I could think of.

Fact is, we unlike any other top PL team have a CM midfield with people in who will rarely ever score or assist. Also if we were winning 1-0 or drawing nil nil then you could say at least he is protecting our back 4, fuck me we are shitting goals and some of that must be down to the midfield not just all the defences fault.

Did you see Essien at the weekend? Fletcher?
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=37348.msg996224#msg996224 date=1258974974]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

More frustrated watching Mascherano than Lucas ?

What a cluster fuck of a post.
[/quote]


once again you fail to read a post correctly in the context it is written in, what the fuck has happened to you

I get less frustrated with Lucas because I know how shit he is, he is never going to get any better, Rafa picks him and is more to blame than Lucas himself

Masher is supposed to be a world class CM, worth a fortune yet other top PL teams have CM who can do more that tackle, they contribute to the teams scoring chances ETC

He is overrated as an overall footballer, Lucas is just pants so less frustrating just pants and will never improve
 
Did you see Essien at the weekend? Fletcher?
Click to expand...

No. Did you?

You watch a lot of football.

I don't know how you fit it all in around X-Factor, I'm A Celebrity, taking photos of your wife's piles, and whatever else you do of a a weekend.
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996214#msg996214 date=1258973354]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37348.msg996185#msg996185 date=1258971479]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=37348.msg996179#msg996179 date=1258970939]
the two main shite things he did (header miss and lazy marking) drove me to complete despair, no fucking excuses.

Rafa is to blame not Lucas, he is average but Rafa keeps picking him.

To be honest I know he is pants so watching him is mind numbing but not surprising, I get more frustrated watching Masher.

A £20-25 million rated player who contributes nothing going forward, name me another top PL CM who does nothing going forward at all, did you see Fletcher's goal, watch Palacios driving forward, Essien scoring two?


[/quote]

Macsherano had a very good game, drove forward well, and produced some decent passes.

He was miles better than Lucarse.
[/quote]


of course he was better, he is a better player nobody can deny that.

I simply cannot accept that we have a £20million player in midfield who offers nothing going forward, no other top team has this situation.

He needs to do more for the attackers, Lucas simply is not good enough Masher is supposed to be world class. Breaking up play is not enough for a world class player.

Our rivals in the PL have their entire midfield capable of scoring, assists ETC
[/quote]

Mascheran is there to help the defence and give his fellow CM time and space, its not his fault he is playing next to the footballing inept Barry Manilow.
 
Mascher should do the makelele job, with an attacking midfielder ahead of him in a 4-4-2.
Gerrard has to play in the middle behind 2 strikers. I've been saying this for years.
Lucas is a passenger, playing him with Mascher in the middle is a monumental tactical mistake from our supposed genious manager.

Negative Manager, negative football, negative results, negative atmosphere surrounding the club.
 
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37348.msg996293#msg996293 date=1258982772]
We'd get absolutely destroyed using a diamond midfield.

Neither Gerrard or Mascherano hold their position on the pitch; teams would walk right through us.
[/quote]
Well we were first in the league using that formation last season until christmas.
 
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