The Magic that is Continio

[rurikbird]

I think the benchmark and the ultimate goal for Coutinho has to be Zidane – the best player in recent history who combined traits of #8 and #10 (you could say the same about Iniesta, but his game is noticeably less direct than that of Zidane or of Coutinho). Zidane has scored on average 1 goal in 5 games in his career. He has scored 10 goals in the league only once at age 20 at Bordeaux, he reached 9 league goals twice with Real Madrid and his highest season total at Juventus was 7. He had roughly the same number of assists as goals throughout his career (unlike Iniesta who has more than twice as many assists as goals).

Zidane age 20 – 35 league games, 10 goals 6 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 20 – 23 league games, 4 goals 5 assists (Inter and Liverpool)

Zidane age 21 – 34 league games, 6 goals 8 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 21 – 33 league games, 5 goals 7 assists (Liverpool)

Zidane age 22 – 37 league games, 6 goals 4 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 22 (season still in progress) – 23 league games, 4 goals 4 assists (Liverpool)

Stats taken from here and here.

 

[Fabio]

You secretly despise Coutinho, that much is evident. Or is the French would say, évident.

You are setting him unreasonable targets. If scores 20 goals from his position between the lines then he's not just good, he's in a class of his own completely. 10-15 goals would be immense and probably within his capabilities if he keeps improving.

I enjoy your use of French


I'm setting him outlandish targets, sure.... But I honestly believe he could be a top 3 in the world player. Why not aim high?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I'm not sure what you aiming high for him is exactly supposed to achieve. Do you think he's listening to you?

*waves at Coutinho*

 

[cloggypop]

Fabio hates Coutinho.

He would have changed the spelling in the thread title otherwise.

 

[Fabio]

I'm not sure what you aiming high for him is exactly supposed to achieve. Do you think he's listening to you?

*waves at Coutinho*

If he had any common sense he would be

 

[Oncy]

I think the benchmark and the ultimate goal for Coutinho has to be Zidane – the best player in recent history who combined traits of #8 and #10 (you could say the same about Iniesta, but his game is noticeably less direct than that of Zidane or of Coutinho). Zidane has scored on average 1 goal in 5 games in his career. He has scored 10 goals in the league only once at age 20 at Bordeaux, he reached 9 league goals twice with Real Madrid and his highest season total at Juventus was 7. He had roughly the same number of assists as goals throughout his career (unlike Iniesta who has more than twice as many assists as goals).

Zidane age 20 – 35 league games, 10 goals 6 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 20 – 23 league games, 4 goals 5 assists (Inter and Liverpool)

Zidane age 21 – 34 league games, 6 goals 8 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 21 – 33 league games, 5 goals 7 assists (Liverpool)

Zidane age 22 – 37 league games, 6 goals 4 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 22 (season still in progress) – 23 league games, 4 goals 4 assists (Liverpool)

Stats taken from here and here.

Zidane!!! Fucking hell.

 

[Whirly]

I'm not sure what you aiming high for him is exactly supposed to achieve. Do you think he's listening to you?

*waves at Coutinho*

Do you think anyone listens to anything we say in the Football Forum?

That's the fun of it after all. Or something.

 

[Dreambeliever]

So the arguement has gone from he only beats people on the halfway line to he doesn't score more goals than any cm in recent times??

 

[Mamma Mia]

So the arguement has gone from he only beats people on the halfway line to he doesn't score more goals than any cm in recent times??

Do you think Coutinho is great?
Do you think he could go on to be even better?
Do you think he is currently one of the top 5 players in the world?

If you answered 'yes, yes, no' then I'm not sure who you're arguing against.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Do you think anyone listens to anything we say in the Football Forum?

That's the fun of it after all. Or something.

Well no, but I kinda think the point is to either learn something, get your opinion reaffirmed by someone, change someones mind, or just have a laugh.

I think the reasoned argument is that Coutinho is doing as well as pretty much anyone for his position and age. I don't think anyone has come up with a similar player that was actually doing better than him at 22.

Therefore, expecting more from him is pretty unreasonable.

Saying you want more is a given. We want more from every player, no player is perfect, every player could do a bit more, whether you're Messi, Ronaldo, or Diao. So saying that is a little pointless, and doesn't really add anything to the conversation.

So, I guess what I asked, is what's the point in all this. Unless someone can provide a decent argument as to why we should be expecting more from Coutinho right now, it seems like a non-discussion to me.

 

[Whirly]

Well no, but I kinda think the point is to either learn something, get your opinion reaffirmed by someone, change someones mind, or just have a laugh.

I think the reasoned argument is that Coutinho is doing as well as pretty much anyone for his position and age. I don't think anyone has come up with a similar player that was actually doing better than him at 22.

Therefore, expecting more from him is pretty unreasonable.

Saying you want more is a given. We want more from every player, no player is perfect, every player could do a bit more, whether you're Messi, Ronaldo, or Diao. So saying that is a little pointless, and doesn't really add anything to the conversation.

So, I guess what I asked, is what's the point in all this. Unless someone can provide a decent argument as to why we should be expecting more from Coutinho right now, it seems like a non-discussion to me.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Shit, the last four posts are from people who don't think there's much of a discussion to be had.

Quick, what are your favourite pizza toppings?

 

[Dreambeliever]

By the by I think one of the biggest elements of Coutinho's game is how good he is at receiving the ball when we are under pressure.

So many times the defence gives him the ball when in a tight spot and he just takes it spins away from his marker and sets us on the counter.

That is an invaluable trait that very players have that can take the pressure off us when we are under constant attack.

Yes he sometimes loses the ball trying to make sh*t happen but it rarely if ever happens inside our own half or near our box, something that used to frustrate the f*ck out of me with Garcia.

 

[gene hughes]

So he's almost as good as Zidane but has a long way to go before he's up there with Luis Garcia. I love these threads.

 

[cloggypop]

He's no Maradona.

 

[gene hughes]

He's a bit of a pre-Maradona, apparently.

 

[mark1975]

Ah yes, the old 'yeah but he's only 22' argument.

I fucking HATE that argument. What were Rooney, Owen, Hazard, Giggs, Bale, etc etc doing at a similarly young age? They never get fucking brought up.

It's just the 'David Silva was playing for Valencia 8ths when he was 22' shite.

I disagree, I don't think he does get in those positions in the box. He will never score as many as a striker, has Sterling who has been playing up front scored 20, did he when he played in midfield. I think the answer is no, so why would you expect it of Countinho - strange..

Ryans point is changing like the wind because he talks shite - lets move the goals posts and ask him to score like a striker\forward. So as requested he is what strikers\forwards(which Coutinho isn't) and a couple of others for amusement did at 22.

Frank Lampard - 14 goals
Wayne Rooney - 18 goals
Michael Owen - 24 goals
Eden Hazard - 15 goals
Gareth Bale - 12 goals
Neymar - 13 goals
Adam Lallana - 11 goals - league one - couldn't score 20 in league - shocking
Joe Allen - 0 goals

So, yeah - he should be scoring 20+ as all those you mentioned have. In case you can't count that is only 1 player a striker who managed to score more than 20...

The goal posts do indeed keep moving (no wonder Coutinho can't score!).

The point has changed over and over, from "Lallana scores and creates goals, Coutinho doesn't", which was proven to be bollocks, because their respective goal records and assists records aren't that far apart over the last three years, Lallana has scored a few more, Coutinho has set up a few more. Now he's being compared to 5 guys who are completely different players - strikers, out and out wingers and Gareth Bale who has played everywhere. His record even stands up to theirs at their respective ages, so again, no research done again to back up a massive assertion.

I'll just leave it there. He's 22, he's got the ability and potential left to become a great, he's a far bigger prospect than some players who've got away with murder so far under Ryan's thoughtful football fan guise, and his record against those who've been used as a beating stick against him actually ends up being favourable, if you bother to do the math. Who'd have thought it eh?

So essentially, he creates and scores regularly enough for a player in his position at his age. To push on he needs to do it a bit more consistently and he needs to fine tune parts of his game, which can probably be said of many players if we take off the "other teams players are better than ours" glasses. Then he might be great, but evidence thus far shows he not quite the overrated, flick merchant who "evades people on the halfway line", which was pretty much where the Ryan vs the rest of the forum argument started. Don't make grand statement after statement if you can't back it up.

 

[Mystic]

He's a bit of a pre-Maradona, apparently.

When I was a kid, I always thought it was said like that!

 

[Mystic]

I think the benchmark and the ultimate goal for Coutinho has to be Zidane – the best player in recent history who combined traits of #8 and #10 (you could say the same about Iniesta, but his game is noticeably less direct than that of Zidane or of Coutinho). Zidane has scored on average 1 goal in 5 games in his career. He has scored 10 goals in the league only once at age 20 at Bordeaux, he reached 9 league goals twice with Real Madrid and his highest season total at Juventus was 7. He had roughly the same number of assists as goals throughout his career (unlike Iniesta who has more than twice as many assists as goals).

Zidane age 20 – 35 league games, 10 goals 6 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 20 – 23 league games, 4 goals 5 assists (Inter and Liverpool)

Zidane age 21 – 34 league games, 6 goals 8 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 21 – 33 league games, 5 goals 7 assists (Liverpool)

Zidane age 22 – 37 league games, 6 goals 4 assists (Bordeaux)
Coutinho age 22 (season still in progress) – 23 league games, 4 goals 4 assists (Liverpool)

Stats taken from here and here.

Christ alive, I didn't realise Zidanes stats were so average!

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Christ alive, I didn't realise Zidanes stats were so average!

Looking at his career record, Zidane never really scored too many throughout his whole club career. He only scored double digits in the league once - and that was when he was 20 years old (10 goals for Bordeaux). All competitions considered, he scored in double digits only 6 times in 14 seasons after he turned 20 (2 in 4 seasons at Bordeaux, 1 in 5 at Juvenrus, 3 in 5 at Real Madrid). Actually his career assists stats are a bit mediocre as well - something like 28 assists in the La Liga and Serie A combined.

Anyway, as a sidetrack, since we're somewhat talking about goals from Coutinho... is it really reasonable to expect him to score more than 10 league goals a season with regularity? Perhaps so, given his obvious talent, but even if he doesn't, it's perhaps useful to be aware that he won't be the first highly-rated attacking talent to fail on that count. The same applies to Sterling, and Ibe.

I think it was Roscoe who mentioned this a while back, and I dug up some stats to back that up as well previously - an attacking mid (and I include wingers in this category) scoring regularly in double digits in the league isn't something that happens a lot, considering the number of players who have played in these positions over the years (we were looking at the Premier League but I won't be surprised if it extends to other leagues as well).

Look at the record for these guys who've done the business in the league:
- Overmars: once in 3 seasons
- Ljungberg: twice in 9 seasons
- Pires: 3 times in 6 seasons
- Bergkamp, playing further forward: 4 times in 11 seasons (his first 4 seasons)
- Fabregas: once in 8 seasons
- Cazorla: once in 3 seasons (might be able to make it twice in this 5th season; 7 goals so far)
- Giggs: twice in 24 seasons
- Scholes: twice in 20 seasons
- Beckham: once in 9 seasons
- Mata: once in 5 seasons
- Silva: 0 in 5 seasons (although he's on track in this 5th season; 9 goals so far)
- Duff (remember him?): 0 in 5 seasons in the PL with Blackburn; 0 in 3 seasons with Chelsea
- Cole (yes, I know, right?): 0 in 5 seasons with West Ham; 0 in 7 seasons with Chelsea
- Robben: 0 in 3 seasons
- Hazard; once in 3 seasons (on track to make that twice in 3 seasons now; 9 goals so far)

It is why Lampard's record - scoring in double digits in the league 10 seasons in a row, from midfield, for Chelsea (he was there for 14 seaons) - is so damn impressive, despite how much we'd love to hate him.

That doesn't mean we should lower the bar for our guys of course, but it does help that guys know that what they're asking for is no mean feat for a non-striker in the league.

 

[mark1975]

This would be a constant criticism when we had players like Kuyt and Murphy scoring 10 goals a season from midfield positions, people would compare them to players like Duff, Cole etc as not good enough. People look at other teams players too favorably at times, sometimes it's warranted (obviously) but we dumb down our own ridiculously too.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

This would be a constant criticism when we had players like Kuyt and Murphy scoring 10 goals a season from midfield positions, people would compare them to players like Duff, Cole etc as not good enough. People look at other teams players too favorably at times, sometimes it's warranted (obviously) but we dumb down our own ridiculously too.

While I see you're supportive of my point, I have to pull you up for cheating - Murphy never scored 10 goals a season in the league. 😉
Thanks for the Kuyt reminder though - he had 3 in 6 seasons, for the record.

 

[Fabio]

... How is anyone dumbing down our own players??

Me and Ryan both have said Coutinho could be a great, we just think he should score more.

That's it

 

[mark1975]

While I see you're supportive of my point, I have to pull you up for cheating - Murphy never scored 10 goals a season in the league. 😉
Thanks for the Kuyt reminder though - he had 3 in 6 seasons, for the record.

Ha.. fair enough. I don't think he was far off a couple of times though was he?

 

[mark1975]

... How is anyone dumbing down our own players??

Me and Ryan both have said Coutinho could be a great, we just think he should score more.

That's it

Well it's not really "just it", read the quotes of Ryan's past comments, read the pointless comparison with Owen and Rooney.

 

[mark1975]

"Coutinho evades people on the halfway line".

"Coutinho was horrific against Bolton"

No dumbing down, no Sir.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

... How is anyone dumbing down our own players??

Me and Ryan both have said Coutinho could be a great, we just think he should score more.

That's it

By the way, after all I wrote - I also do agree that Coutinho has the potential to score more. I think 10 league goals is a good target for him to strive for, but I won't hold my breath for him to keep hitting that, given those who've passed before him who've never done it, in equally attacking outfits. Still, we've to give him a carrot to chase, so 10 is a nice mark to try for.

It'd actually probably be the same for the rest of the attacking mids (including wide forwards) - Lallana, Sterling, Markovic and Ibe. If they need a target to hit, 10 would be a nice number to start with.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Ha.. fair enough. I don't think he was far off a couple of times though was he?

With Liverpool: 3, 4, 6, 7, 5... average: 5. So he was pretty shit. 😀

 

[mark1975]

With Liverpool: 3, 4, 6, 7, 5... average: 5. So he was pretty shit. 😀

Ha.. ok!

 

[Fabio]

Well it's not really "just it", read the quotes of Ryan's past comments, read the pointless comparison with Owen and Rooney.

He barely compared them. He used them as an example of other 22 year old who were ALREADY world class.