Post match thoughts
- Thread starter My_Blood_Bleeds_Red
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Hi Everyone
Been reading this entire thread and I love these posts:-
studsup post:
"Everyone needs to be issued with a Joe Allen poster and told to kiss it and wank to it everyday with the ball between their feet, so they remember what it means by loving the ball and taking good care of it."
gkmacca post:
"West Brom: patchy and then shit.
Hearts: shit.
Man City: decent.
Hearts: shit.
Arsenal: shit.
That's not inconsistent, I'm afraid. It's generally shit."
It was a difficult game and I generally am in agreement with the points raised originally in this thread by My_Blood_Bleeds_Red but have issues with point 3 on SG. I think the following:-
1) Move SG onto the right of the front three, and let Borini rest. It will also help out GlenJo as I think both Arsenal's goals came from that side because of the space he left behind. We know SG can and likes to track back.
2) Play Shelvy until Lucas returns in front of Allen and Sahin. Allen can do the holding role which he did quite well in team GB games during the Olympics. Can I just add that he is better than anything I had imagined and I also feel sorry for him because he may have joined thinking he was playing with world class talent in a better team - but not on todays evidence.
3) There is nothing we can do about the penetration issue (see issue after point 4) that is so obvious and my worse fears of not being able to score or create clear cut chances is becoming a reality (note that Red Mullet).
4) I know SG made that error in his pass that led to the first goal but seriously - if our team can be so easily outdone by one single misplaced pass in the opponents half (as I remember it - could be wrong) then we got some serious defensive issues to sort out. Additionally as some have pointed out we were not in control of the midfield because of the strength of Diaby who was brilliant for them today.
On a sinister note - this is the most defensive and balanced performance by an Arsenal team under Wenger I have seen in a long time. It strikes me that nearly ALL the teams that play us don't want to attack and turn very defensive making it more difficult for our impotent strikers to score. I don't think this is going to change - so our best bet is to take shots from outside the penalty area whenever chances present themselves like Downing did against Gomel. Like last season we never had enough people in the box for a lot of the crosses that were put in and we never pressed them like we did in the final third against city. The front 3 were very poor today.
Finally many of of you argued that it was good to get Borini at 9M rather than going for 29 year old Dempsey (if there was a choice - a question I put out in the 'Borini is shit thread'). I read that RVP scored a hatrick today - not comparing him to Dempsey but call him a fucker or whatever (i..e Sir Alex) - he at least went out there and addressed a problem he thought his team had last season in finishing chances by getting the 29 year old for 20M+. We should have done the same in trying to get Dempsey for a lot less to address the goal scoring problem we knew very well existed from last season. Yes we got some midfield talent - but the central problem of not scoring enough should have been our priority this season along with the signing of Allen .
Regards,
MORON
Been reading this entire thread and I love these posts:-
studsup post:
"Everyone needs to be issued with a Joe Allen poster and told to kiss it and wank to it everyday with the ball between their feet, so they remember what it means by loving the ball and taking good care of it."
gkmacca post:
"West Brom: patchy and then shit.
Hearts: shit.
Man City: decent.
Hearts: shit.
Arsenal: shit.
That's not inconsistent, I'm afraid. It's generally shit."
It was a difficult game and I generally am in agreement with the points raised originally in this thread by My_Blood_Bleeds_Red but have issues with point 3 on SG. I think the following:-
1) Move SG onto the right of the front three, and let Borini rest. It will also help out GlenJo as I think both Arsenal's goals came from that side because of the space he left behind. We know SG can and likes to track back.
2) Play Shelvy until Lucas returns in front of Allen and Sahin. Allen can do the holding role which he did quite well in team GB games during the Olympics. Can I just add that he is better than anything I had imagined and I also feel sorry for him because he may have joined thinking he was playing with world class talent in a better team - but not on todays evidence.
3) There is nothing we can do about the penetration issue (see issue after point 4) that is so obvious and my worse fears of not being able to score or create clear cut chances is becoming a reality (note that Red Mullet).
4) I know SG made that error in his pass that led to the first goal but seriously - if our team can be so easily outdone by one single misplaced pass in the opponents half (as I remember it - could be wrong) then we got some serious defensive issues to sort out. Additionally as some have pointed out we were not in control of the midfield because of the strength of Diaby who was brilliant for them today.
On a sinister note - this is the most defensive and balanced performance by an Arsenal team under Wenger I have seen in a long time. It strikes me that nearly ALL the teams that play us don't want to attack and turn very defensive making it more difficult for our impotent strikers to score. I don't think this is going to change - so our best bet is to take shots from outside the penalty area whenever chances present themselves like Downing did against Gomel. Like last season we never had enough people in the box for a lot of the crosses that were put in and we never pressed them like we did in the final third against city. The front 3 were very poor today.
Finally many of of you argued that it was good to get Borini at 9M rather than going for 29 year old Dempsey (if there was a choice - a question I put out in the 'Borini is shit thread'). I read that RVP scored a hatrick today - not comparing him to Dempsey but call him a fucker or whatever (i..e Sir Alex) - he at least went out there and addressed a problem he thought his team had last season in finishing chances by getting the 29 year old for 20M+. We should have done the same in trying to get Dempsey for a lot less to address the goal scoring problem we knew very well existed from last season. Yes we got some midfield talent - but the central problem of not scoring enough should have been our priority this season along with the signing of Allen .
Regards,
MORON
While I also get sucked into the dearth of strikers argument here, the reality is that we have more flair in this team than in years, before. We've got a lovely winger, young sterling, the morrocan looks like a real bag of tricks, borini will do very well, not to mention Sahin, and Allen. There is a lot of reasons to be cheerful here, get with the program lads. It's been a great window.
Anyone worried about our position now, remember how Arsenal were doing by last October, Awful. Our manager has brought in some great talent, and will make us proud. You know he feels like the right manager. Worst case scenario we'll have to bring in a striker freelancer now or a new signing in January.
We've also got Suarez, Gerrard, not to mention a really good defensive unit, so keep the faith.
The foundation is strong, turn off the blogs, quit the twittering, the knee jerk posting, the fsg conspiracy theorizing and look at the long term prospects: really attractive manager, flair players galore and a good defensive core. Have patience.
Anyone worried about our position now, remember how Arsenal were doing by last October, Awful. Our manager has brought in some great talent, and will make us proud. You know he feels like the right manager. Worst case scenario we'll have to bring in a striker freelancer now or a new signing in January.
We've also got Suarez, Gerrard, not to mention a really good defensive unit, so keep the faith.
The foundation is strong, turn off the blogs, quit the twittering, the knee jerk posting, the fsg conspiracy theorizing and look at the long term prospects: really attractive manager, flair players galore and a good defensive core. Have patience.
Look - we weren't horrendous against Arsenal.
We just weren't great in the final 3rd. This is not a new thing that's just reared it's ugly head. What is certain is that were not going to become Barcelona overnight by introducing 2 out of 3 new forwards - one of them being 17 and 2 out of 3 new midfielders.
If anyone thinks we would be better sticking with Adam, Henderson, Downing & Carroll along with last years gloriously inept tactics I'd love to hear a case for it.
What is equally certain is that the money isn't there to add the players we need to speed the process up significantly. Again only Chelsea & the 2 Manc teams do this without generating much of the income from selling players.
We generated next to fuck all in cash from sales - we're only going to do that by selling players that are good - not shite that no-one wants.
Harsh realities - but there it is - it doesn't get fixed immediately.
The good news is - we are starting to go in the right direction both on and off the pitch. The performances against 2 good sides have been encouraging, the results haven't been reflective of them.
Long way to go - break for international week might do us good.
We just weren't great in the final 3rd. This is not a new thing that's just reared it's ugly head. What is certain is that were not going to become Barcelona overnight by introducing 2 out of 3 new forwards - one of them being 17 and 2 out of 3 new midfielders.
If anyone thinks we would be better sticking with Adam, Henderson, Downing & Carroll along with last years gloriously inept tactics I'd love to hear a case for it.
What is equally certain is that the money isn't there to add the players we need to speed the process up significantly. Again only Chelsea & the 2 Manc teams do this without generating much of the income from selling players.
We generated next to fuck all in cash from sales - we're only going to do that by selling players that are good - not shite that no-one wants.
Harsh realities - but there it is - it doesn't get fixed immediately.
The good news is - we are starting to go in the right direction both on and off the pitch. The performances against 2 good sides have been encouraging, the results haven't been reflective of them.
Long way to go - break for international week might do us good.
Good post Stevie.
We WERE horrendous. Our midfield was non-existent again for all of Allen's brilliance and defensively we were cut open at ease plenty of times. The only real moments we had were a piece of improvisation from a 17 year old and a couple of pot shots from (the very good again) Shelvey. That's all we mustered in 90 minutes. We struggled to keep the ball, we weren't incisive with our play, we were drab, predictable and one dimensional with nothing else to look at when we turned to the bench.
Oh and I appreciate that it will take time for the players to get used to the system and that we lack a few players, but a stark reality yesterday was that Rodger's method of playing the fullbacks on the halfway line and a DM dropping in the middle didn't work, because we had a fullback who already struggles to concentrate and hold his position (Johnson), a fullback who's sluggish and predictable (Enrique) and no fucking DM!! It was stupid and suicidal and it cost us. We need to learn to adjust Plan A (his words) when things aren't working. This was a problem that was obvious from the first whistle yesterday, they continually exploited the space down the sides of the fullbacks (particularly on our right) and it cost us the game. We should have compacted the back four.
Oh and I appreciate that it will take time for the players to get used to the system and that we lack a few players, but a stark reality yesterday was that Rodger's method of playing the fullbacks on the halfway line and a DM dropping in the middle didn't work, because we had a fullback who already struggles to concentrate and hold his position (Johnson), a fullback who's sluggish and predictable (Enrique) and no fucking DM!! It was stupid and suicidal and it cost us. We need to learn to adjust Plan A (his words) when things aren't working. This was a problem that was obvious from the first whistle yesterday, they continually exploited the space down the sides of the fullbacks (particularly on our right) and it cost us the game. We should have compacted the back four.
I haven't the time, will or energy to break it down, so here's the bullet points:
1 - Gerrard and Suarez shouldn't have played against Hearts for 90 minutes.
2 - Our midfield 3 whilst all comfortable with inter-changing and good on the ball were too flat. Straight line flat. See the space tat Cazorla operated in? We never got one of our midfielders into that hole until Shelvey came on. Suarez was the only one trying to get into that gap, and it shouldn't have been him.
3 - Too slow ball movement. We looked like we were playing in 1952. How slow can you move the fucking ball people? Quicken the fucking pace for the love of Christ.
4 - Quality over quantity. Sahin, Allen and Gerrard might have had more of it, but Arsenal's 3 did more with it. Diaby in particular was outstanding, driving forward at every turn. I didn't see one of our three push forward with it once.
5 - You gotta take your chances. Another game, another 4/5 half-chances spurned. It was a nothing game until we gifted them a goal too.
1 - Gerrard and Suarez shouldn't have played against Hearts for 90 minutes.
2 - Our midfield 3 whilst all comfortable with inter-changing and good on the ball were too flat. Straight line flat. See the space tat Cazorla operated in? We never got one of our midfielders into that hole until Shelvey came on. Suarez was the only one trying to get into that gap, and it shouldn't have been him.
3 - Too slow ball movement. We looked like we were playing in 1952. How slow can you move the fucking ball people? Quicken the fucking pace for the love of Christ.
4 - Quality over quantity. Sahin, Allen and Gerrard might have had more of it, but Arsenal's 3 did more with it. Diaby in particular was outstanding, driving forward at every turn. I didn't see one of our three push forward with it once.
5 - You gotta take your chances. Another game, another 4/5 half-chances spurned. It was a nothing game until we gifted them a goal too.
Gerrard cannot play in midfield in this system
Years of (justified) hero worship and grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck have left us with a player who can't do the simple with any great degree of consistency. Like a Vietnam vet, he gets flashbacks to his great matches and tried to emulate them, but now he doesn't have the pace, power, or teammates for that type of play
Drop him or put him with Suarez and borini
Years of (justified) hero worship and grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck have left us with a player who can't do the simple with any great degree of consistency. Like a Vietnam vet, he gets flashbacks to his great matches and tried to emulate them, but now he doesn't have the pace, power, or teammates for that type of play
Drop him or put him with Suarez and borini
You can only get 40/1 for LFC to be relegated.
Got me thinking.
Got me thinking.
Don't top yourself just yet. I think we'll improve on 8th this year.
Fuck me we where shite.....how easy did arsenal make it bypassing our midfield. We simply can't seem to open teams up, whether we launch it or try to pass it through. There where times when we had the ball on the edge of their box and no one was in the box - shocking...
T
the_khl
Guest
- Gerrard and the CB pairing to blame for the first goal. When you apply high pressure you'd expect your backline to stand high too and not linger on around your own penalty area as Agger and Skrtel did.
- Gerrard simply gave so many balls away all game it was getting criminal. Looked almost lost for confidence too, and so did Reina. A wee bit early three games into the Season and doesn't bode too well.
- Allen is a wonderful footballer but we need him to play more passes forward instead of sideways and backwards, why we need better movement around him.
- Sahin showeed in glimpses what a great footballer he is but it will take some time for him and Allen to gel.
- If we are to conceede first from now to January we will probably struggle to get anything from games as the players looked well aware of the apparent attacking possibilites from the bench.
- Sterling is one of few highlights in the Season so far, we have to make sure however he doesn't lose his confidence if we keep struggling. Young players shouldn't be relied upon to be the ones dragging us back up.
- Shelvey looks like he's ready to get a starting berth. Impressed a lot so far and looks like one of few scoring threats from midfield.
- Borini is struggling which is to be expected. Jury is still out.
- Gerrard simply gave so many balls away all game it was getting criminal. Looked almost lost for confidence too, and so did Reina. A wee bit early three games into the Season and doesn't bode too well.
- Allen is a wonderful footballer but we need him to play more passes forward instead of sideways and backwards, why we need better movement around him.
- Sahin showeed in glimpses what a great footballer he is but it will take some time for him and Allen to gel.
- If we are to conceede first from now to January we will probably struggle to get anything from games as the players looked well aware of the apparent attacking possibilites from the bench.
- Sterling is one of few highlights in the Season so far, we have to make sure however he doesn't lose his confidence if we keep struggling. Young players shouldn't be relied upon to be the ones dragging us back up.
- Shelvey looks like he's ready to get a starting berth. Impressed a lot so far and looks like one of few scoring threats from midfield.
- Borini is struggling which is to be expected. Jury is still out.
T
the_khl
Guest
I'd seriously consider moving Gerrard out on the wing to accomodate Shelvey in central and then bench Borini for now.
That would somehow give us an attacking option from the bench as well as a better balance in midfield perhaps.
Gerrard of now can't play as a wing forward.
He can play in cm, but he needs a fucking rest every couple of games. I believe I may have mentioned that once or twice before.
He can play in cm, but he needs a fucking rest every couple of games. I believe I may have mentioned that once or twice before.
I havent seen him play well for a while now Jon. It's a little worrying.
The last good game i saw him have was for England. I feel that to get the best out of him he needs to take more of the creative responsibilities over Suarez to allow Luis to stop dropping deep and getting our midfield pushed further back. I think it has to be either or in playmakerish terms between Gerrard and Suarez, certainly not both.
Resting Gerrard and Suarez is the right thing to do. They didn't play the first Hearts game and played well against City. They played against Hearts at Anfield and weren't as good against Arsenal.
Not entirely sure if they'll be playing in the international games, let's hope not. Shame they didn't have an "injury" after Arsenal.
I don't 'like' this post because the truth hurts but it has to be QFT
Gerrard & Suarez lost the ball 46 times against arsenal.
I think that there is the biggest problem last weekend.
I think that there is the biggest problem last weekend.
He does. If there's been one form player throughout pre-season and into the season, it's him. I think he looks quality personally and ready to step into the team on a permanent basis. We looked a much better proposition when he came on at the weekend aswell. Gerrard needs a breather, or a different position.
I couldn't understand Gerrard playing last Thursday, when it's clear he's still struggling to regain his sharpness and stamina. Shelvey's well worth a regular place, and he's good at going forward so i hope he is pushed further up (away from the temptation to resort to any more of those dubious tackles).
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