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jonjo shelvey

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ii)Display of favouritism in signing players. He’s already signed two of his former favourites in Konchesky and Poulsen. I understand most managers have their favourites (e.g. Mourinho buying Carvalho), but Konchesky and Poulsen are players of a mid-table standard and have no business being at Liverpool. Having said that, I agree that they may do a solid enough job. However, their combined fee (3.5 million + 4.5 million) could have easily gone towards a striker or a winger.
Click to expand...

Ehmm isn't there some contradiction? He managed to get 2 players in who could/would do a decent job for us, in departments where we needed reinforcement. While striker position was an important one to fill, it wasn't as pressing as compared to LB and DM/CM. Its not very fair to judge and compare like that cos its not as if the money that went to those 2 signings affected our chances of bringing in a striker/winger.
 
[quote author=Binny link=topic=41753.msg1170388#msg1170388 date=1283785381]
ii)Display of favouritism in signing players. He’s already signed two of his former favourites in Konchesky and Poulsen. I understand most managers have their favourites (e.g. Mourinho buying Carvalho), but Konchesky and Poulsen are players of a mid-table standard and have no business being at Liverpool. Having said that, I agree that they may do a solid enough job. However, their combined fee (3.5 million + 4.5 million) could have easily gone towards a striker or a winger.
Click to expand...

Ehmm isn't there some contradiction? He managed to get 2 players in who could/would do a decent job for us, in departments where we needed reinforcement. While striker position was an important one to fill, it wasn't as pressing as compared to LB and DM/CM. Its not very fair to judge and compare like that cos its not as if the money that went to those 2 signings affected our chances of bringing in a striker/winger.
[/quote]There is much to agree with here.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170376#msg1170376 date=1283783327]
I really can’t claim to have followed Hodgson’s managerial career before Liverpool, so my fears are founded only on what I’ve seen with his games in charge of us.

Going into the season, the four glaring weaknesses in the squad were back-up striker, central midfield, left-wing and left-back. The only position addressed was left-back through the flogging of Insua and I would have expected that of any Premiership manager. I'll reserve judgment on central midfield as we've lost Mascherano and I have no clue of how good Meireles is. So, to sum up, the negatives:

i) Extremely ‘meh’ transfer window even with the resources at hand. Note the failure to prioritise the signing of a striker and winger over a left-back. If resources were a problem, Kelly/Agger/Aurelio/Wilson could have covered left-back until January. The lack of a back-up striker will cost us dearly. The only way we can ride this out is if Torres stays fit till January. Hodgson will be extremely lucky if so.
ii) Display of favouritism in signing players. He’s already signed two of his former favourites in Konchesky and Poulsen. I understand most managers have their favourites (e.g. Mourinho buying Carvalho), but Konchesky and Poulsen are players of a mid-table standard and have no business being at Liverpool. Having said that, I agree that they may do a solid enough job. However, their combined fee (3.5 million + 4.5 million) could have easily gone towards a striker or a winger.
iii) The Wilson signing (for about 4 million) was also a head-scratcher in terms of management of resources. We had (and still have) four centre-backs ahead of him. If resources were so scarce, why was money wasted on a young centre-back who is unlikely to see playing time this season?
iv) Poor team selection against Man City, Trabzonspor and WBA.
v) Failure to make substitutions at the right time against Man City, Trabzonspor and WBA.
vi) Playing Lucas and N’gog over two clearly superior talents in Shelvey and Pacheco.


A lot of the points above (those regarding transfers and Lucas/N’gog’s abilities) are based, of course, on personal opinions. However, the same are shared by several members on this site and are those, which I believe, will prove to be true over the course of the season.

The rest of the points (regarding team selection) are through observation of limited game time. So Hodgson might indeed prove them to be false. His lack of experience at the top level in the PL doesn’t have me too excited though.

[/quote]

I can't be bothered to go through all your points, but just for starters:

Wilson was not a Hodgson signing (although I tend to agree re mis-assigned resources)

Pacheco is not a centre-forward, and has not even scored lots of goals at reserve level - so how would he be 'clearly superior' to Wash, whose scoring record this season is actually very good?

There is a difference between 'favouritism' and 'signing players you know you can rely on because you've worked with them before' - though, again, I tend to agree re the qualities of those two particular players.

Finally, the idea that LB was not a priority position is just complete crap.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=41753.msg1170402#msg1170402 date=1283788392]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170376#msg1170376 date=1283783327]
I really can’t claim to have followed Hodgson’s managerial career before Liverpool, so my fears are founded only on what I’ve seen with his games in charge of us.

Going into the season, the four glaring weaknesses in the squad were back-up striker, central midfield, left-wing and left-back. The only position addressed was left-back through the flogging of Insua and I would have expected that of any Premiership manager. I'll reserve judgment on central midfield as we've lost Mascherano and I have no clue of how good Meireles is. So, to sum up, the negatives:

i) Extremely ‘meh’ transfer window even with the resources at hand. Note the failure to prioritise the signing of a striker and winger over a left-back. If resources were a problem, Kelly/Agger/Aurelio/Wilson could have covered left-back until January. The lack of a back-up striker will cost us dearly. The only way we can ride this out is if Torres stays fit till January. Hodgson will be extremely lucky if so.
ii) Display of favouritism in signing players. He’s already signed two of his former favourites in Konchesky and Poulsen. I understand most managers have their favourites (e.g. Mourinho buying Carvalho), but Konchesky and Poulsen are players of a mid-table standard and have no business being at Liverpool. Having said that, I agree that they may do a solid enough job. However, their combined fee (3.5 million + 4.5 million) could have easily gone towards a striker or a winger.
iii) The Wilson signing (for about 4 million) was also a head-scratcher in terms of management of resources. We had (and still have) four centre-backs ahead of him. If resources were so scarce, why was money wasted on a young centre-back who is unlikely to see playing time this season?
iv) Poor team selection against Man City, Trabzonspor and WBA.
v) Failure to make substitutions at the right time against Man City, Trabzonspor and WBA.
vi) Playing Lucas and N’gog over two clearly superior talents in Shelvey and Pacheco.


A lot of the points above (those regarding transfers and Lucas/N’gog’s abilities) are based, of course, on personal opinions. However, the same are shared by several members on this site and are those, which I believe, will prove to be true over the course of the season.

The rest of the points (regarding team selection) are through observation of limited game time. So Hodgson might indeed prove them to be false. His lack of experience at the top level in the PL doesn’t have me too excited though.

[/quote]

I can't be bothered to go through all your points, but just for starters:

Wilson was not a Hodgson signing (although I tend to agree re mis-assigned resources)

Pacheco is not a centre-forward, and has not even scored lots of goals at reserve level - so how would he be 'clearly superior' to Wash, whose scoring record this season is actually very good?

There is a difference between 'favouritism' and 'signing players you know you can rely on because you've worked with them before' - though, again, I tend to agree re the qualities of those two particular players.

Finally, the idea that LB was not a priority position is just complete crap.

[/quote]


And Wilson didn't cost 4 million.
 
Several people on this site, most notably Vlad, would tell you that back-up striker was far more of an important need than left-back.

What was a pressing need at left-back was to get rid of the calamity in Insua. The same could have been done by playing Kelly/Aurelio/Agger there till January.

Signing Wilson was unnecessary under the circumstances. As regards his signing (and for the record, it is was actually a 5 million deal though how much was paid upfront, I don't know), while negotiations for his signing took place last season, we were given to believe that the deal was dead in the water at the end of last season. Speculation revived AFTER Hodgson took over and he signed well after Hodgson was appointed. So, I don't believe that Hodgson's approval wasn't taken for his signing. This is of course for those who don't believe the 'yes man' theory.

As regards Pacheco and N'gog, I've made no secret of the fact that I think N'gog is shit. Whether Pacheco is better than him can be gauged only when he gets to play, but the fact that he's just won the best player at the Euro-19 championships will tell you that he's more fucking talented than him at the very least.

Lastly, whether you call it favouritism or a preference for safe and experienced players over unknown but talented youngters, the point driven home is the same and that is of conservatism, which was of course the point I was originally agreeing with.

I am not passing a judgment on Hodgson (yet). I'm simply voicing my fears, which several people would classify as perfectly legitimate. If you seriously think there's nothing to worry about and we'll finish higher than 6th barring unbelievable fortune, then I think your optimism is sorely misplaced.
 
I didn't see any of the games. I read somewhere that he played as a left forward, but that might be wrong.

Either way, he's a completely different player to N'Gog, as has been said, and it's silly to view N'Gog as someone blocking his path to the first team. The players doing that are the likes of Jovanovic, Cole, Maxi et al.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41753.msg1170443#msg1170443 date=1283793924]
I didn't see any of the games. I read somewhere that he played as a left forward, but that might be wrong.

Either way, he's a completely different player to N'Gog, as has been said, and it's silly to view N'Gog as someone blocking his path to the first team. The players doing that are the likes of Jovanovic, Cole, Maxi et al.
[/quote]

Yep. This assumption that N'Gog is blocking his way is stupid, he doesn't even look like a striker.
 
I'm not advocating a like for like swap at all. When Torres was out, I'd have played Kuyt or Jovanovic, two natural strikers, with excellent goalscoring records if I may add, up front, with Pacheco as a second striker. Whether directly or not, by playing N'gog, Hodgson has so far kept better players out of the team, whether it be Pacheco or Maxi.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170447#msg1170447 date=1283794978]
I'm not advocating a like for like swap at all. When Torres was out, I'd have played Kuyt or Jovanovic, two natural strikers, with excellent goalscoring records if I may add, up front, with Pacheco as a second striker. Whether directly or not, by playing N'gog, Hodgson has so far kept better players out of the team, whether it be Pacheco or Maxi.
[/quote]

Kuyt isn't much use at leading the line here in England no matter what his scoring record was like in Holland. And when Torres was out earlier in the season, we had N'Gog who couldn't stop scoring and Joe Cole in his promised #10 role. Not really a lot to complain about there, I'm afraid.

Pacheco's best chance of starting this season was against West Brom when Torres was available and Joe Cole was not. He didn't start. Maxi didn't either. And funnily enough, there was no N'Gog ruining the party for them. Go figure.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41753.msg1170449#msg1170449 date=1283795828]
Pacheco is more R2D2.
[/quote]

lucky he's not a defensive mid then
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41753.msg1170457#msg1170457 date=1283796867]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170447#msg1170447 date=1283794978]
I'm not advocating a like for like swap at all. When Torres was out, I'd have played Kuyt or Jovanovic, two natural strikers, with excellent goalscoring records if I may add, up front, with Pacheco as a second striker. Whether directly or not, by playing N'gog, Hodgson has so far kept better players out of the team, whether it be Pacheco or Maxi.
[/quote]

Kuyt isn't much use at leading the line here in England no matter what his scoring record was like in Holland. And when Torres was out earlier in the season, we had N'Gog who couldn't stop scoring and Joe Cole in his promised #10 role. Not really a lot to complain about there, I'm afraid.

Pacheco's best chance of starting this season was against West Brom when Torres was available and Joe Cole was not. He didn't start. Maxi didn't either. And funnily enough, there was no N'Gog ruining the party for them. Go figure.
[/quote]


that's all true, but i think you've inadvertantly underlined dmishra's central concern about conservatism by highlighting what was a glaring, and imo regrettable, missed opportunity to give pacheco a chance.
 
I was simply responding to the comment that N'Gog is blocking the path of players like Pacheco. The fact that other factors are is a topic for another debate and probably one that I'd be more inclined to take dmishra's side on.
 
Yeah, the line-up against West Brom was terrible. Solidity favoured over flair, at home, against one of the weakest teams in the league. Hopefully Roy's not blind, and he will see that a midfield of Kuyt - Lucas - Poulsen - Jovanovic is utterly lacking in creativity and skill.
 
the west brom line up was a direct response to the idiotic attempt at 442 earlier that week against city. uncle roy couldn't afford to drop points and back to back defeats would have placed immense pressure on him 3 games in.

n'gog is not good enough and his presence as an immediate first choice replacement will limit pacheco's opportunities. the question for uncle roy is does he gamble on what pacheco could be against what he knows n'gog will never be.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41753.msg1170457#msg1170457 date=1283796867]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170447#msg1170447 date=1283794978]
I'm not advocating a like for like swap at all. When Torres was out, I'd have played Kuyt or Jovanovic, two natural strikers, with excellent goalscoring records if I may add, up front, with Pacheco as a second striker. Whether directly or not, by playing N'gog, Hodgson has so far kept better players out of the team, whether it be Pacheco or Maxi.
[/quote]

Kuyt isn't much use at leading the line here in England no matter what his scoring record was like in Holland. And when Torres was out earlier in the season, we had N'Gog who couldn't stop scoring and Joe Cole in his promised #10 role. Not really a lot to complain about there, I'm afraid.

Pacheco's best chance of starting this season was against West Brom when Torres was available and Joe Cole was not. He didn't start. Maxi didn't either. And funnily enough, there was no N'Gog ruining the party for them. Go figure.
[/quote]

Not true. Pacheco and Maxi had the chance to be selected ahead of N'gog against both Arsenal and Man City. I think most of us would also agree that notwithstanding that moment of brilliance against Arsenal, N'gog's performances in both games was pitiful. You could of course argue that given N'gog's outstanding form in preseason, he deserved to play in those games, but you could likewise make a case for Pacheco based on his brilliant form in pre-season for Spain in the Euro u-19s.

It would eventually boil down to a personal opinion on whether you think N'gog is a capable enough player or not, and I clearly don't believe he is. But that's a separate debate.

As regards Kuyt's abilities as a striker, his goalscoring record in England is pretty damn decent as well, and if you ask LTW, he'll tell you how he went on and on last season about how most of Kuyt's goals come when he plays as a striker. In fact, I recall him forging a very promising partnership with Bellamy when he was here. Stands to reason, that he'd perform well in a front two with a similar player in Pacheco. In any event, if I had a straight choice between playing N'gog alone up front and a partnership of Kuyt and Pacheco, I'd pick the latter every time.

Anyway, this seems irrelevant as we've digressed considerably from the original point being made. I take it that there is quite a consensus over the fact that Hodgson has looked a conservative manager so far.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170615#msg1170615 date=1283844713]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41753.msg1170457#msg1170457 date=1283796867]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170447#msg1170447 date=1283794978]
I'm not advocating a like for like swap at all. When Torres was out, I'd have played Kuyt or Jovanovic, two natural strikers, with excellent goalscoring records if I may add, up front, with Pacheco as a second striker. Whether directly or not, by playing N'gog, Hodgson has so far kept better players out of the team, whether it be Pacheco or Maxi.
[/quote]

Kuyt isn't much use at leading the line here in England no matter what his scoring record was like in Holland. And when Torres was out earlier in the season, we had N'Gog who couldn't stop scoring and Joe Cole in his promised #10 role. Not really a lot to complain about there, I'm afraid.

Pacheco's best chance of starting this season was against West Brom when Torres was available and Joe Cole was not. He didn't start. Maxi didn't either. And funnily enough, there was no N'Gog ruining the party for them. Go figure.
[/quote]

Not true. Pacheco and Maxi had the chance to be selected ahead of N'gog against both Arsenal and Man City. I think most of us would also agree that notwithstanding that moment of brilliance against Arsenal, N'gog's performances in both games was pitiful. You could of course argue that given N'gog's outstanding form in preseason, he deserved to play in those games, but you could likewise make a case for Pacheco based on his brilliant form in pre-season for Spain in the Euro u-19s.

It would eventually boil down to a personal opinion on whether you think N'gog is a capable enough player or not, and I clearly don't believe he is. But that's a separate debate.

As regards Kuyt's abilities as a striker, his goalscoring record in England is pretty damn decent as well, and if you ask LTW, he'll tell you how he went on and on last season about how most of Kuyt's goals come when he plays as a striker. In fact, I recall him forging a very promising partnership with Bellamy when he was here. Stands to reason, that he'd perform well in a front two with a similar player in Pacheco. In any event, if I had a straight choice between playing N'gog alone up front and a partnership of Kuyt and Pacheco, I'd pick the latter every time.

Anyway, this seems irrelevant as we've digressed considerably from the original point being made. I take it that there is quite a consensus over the fact that Hodgson has looked a conservative manager so far.
[/quote]

against man city and arsenal, ngog recieved next to no service. even the best strikers will struggle with little service, never mind a novice.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=41753.msg1170615#msg1170615 date=1283844713]
Not true. Pacheco and Maxi had the chance to be selected ahead of N'gog against both Arsenal and Man City. I think most of us would also agree that notwithstanding that moment of brilliance against Arsenal, N'gog's performances in both games was pitiful. You could of course argue that given N'gog's outstanding form in preseason, he deserved to play in those games, but you could likewise make a case for Pacheco based on his brilliant form in pre-season for Spain in the Euro u-19s.
[/quote]

You're seeing what you want to see. N'Gog put in a very good second half performance against Arsenal and that was something that I recall being acknowledged on here, not usually the most receptive place for N'Gog. You could argue for including Pacheco based on his U-19 form, but as we know from past painful experience, there is a world of difference between performing in a youth tournament to the Premiership. N'Gog had a good pre-season and didn't deserve to be dropped.

But yeah, we'll leave it at that.
 
Wash was brilliant for France U-21s (or 19s or whatever) a while ago. Pacheco played against Rabotnicki, and did nothing of note. He looks like he's got talent, but I really don't see why you're (dmishra) so convinced he'd be a smash in the PL. He's tiny, inexperienced, and has never even dominated at reserve level in this country. It might also be worth pointing out that Liverpool (sadly) do not play in the same fluid, patient style as the Spanish national side. I suspect he'd struggle big time, personally. And I don't rate Kuyt as a striker either.
 
Hmm, we're going off topic, but I'll indulge in this debate nonetheless.

I'm not guranteeing that Pacheco will be a hit in the PL. There is every chance that he may fail. But he's been a bright spark in all the garbage time he's played and I want him to get a proper chance in the first team. This is so because he is possibly the most hyped youngster we've had in years. Barcelona academy, best Euro-19 player - those are the most impressive credentials we've had in a youth player for a long time. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he win the reserves player of the year a season ago?

What I am most definitely convinced about is that N'gog will never make it big. I expect him to be back in France or maybe playing for a team like Stoke in a few years time. The only thing going for him is a decent turn of pace and a knack for getting into goalscoring positions. All other aspects of his game - strength, touch, awareness, finishing are woeful. His ceiling is a poor man's David Trezeguet and I don't mean that in a good way because I never rated Trezeguet. He'll score some goals here and there but he will be widely considered as a mediocre player. I can guarantee it. I'd be happy to take you up on a bet on this.

To put it simply, in rage's words, I'd rather "gamble on what pacheco could be against what I know n'gog will never be".
 
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=41753.msg1170799#msg1170799 date=1283877121]
When you start to use Rages' words, you know you are chatting shat.
[/quote]

*nods*
 
foresight. an ability to look at something and be able to suss it out and put in place a strategy that will minimise risk and maximise return.

clearly some of us have it whilst others are lemmings or ostriches.

i'm off home now after my long day at work interviewing for my new pa - can't quite decide between the blond scandinavian or the dark haired russian. i'm sure my drive home in my new sportscar will clear my head.

as i said its all about foresight. 😉
 
Where would the football world be without your ability to "suss things out"......

Thanks mate...
 
Please drive carefully in your new sportscar. It would be terrible if you crashed and it exploded in a massive fireball.
 
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