West Brom (h) - post match chat

[tony]

Maybe he needs a couple of saves to gain a bit of confidence.
I have to say although he hasn't covered himself in glory and has made some pretty bad mistakes with his kicking we do look more secure when playing the ball out from the back. Apart from that there ain't too many positives, even considering going back to Ming is depressing.

 

[ILD]

I said it a couple of times:

"I have a horrible feeling that he is going to be a liability on high balls. He isn't the tallest, and doesn't like catching"

Hope I'm proven wrong in the long run, but it's rare.

Where did you get bit that from? From watching him play or reading reports? That's why I was asking if there was reports or articles outlining his catching as a weakness? I can't remember them.

I didn't really know much about him, I was happy to play him as his name wasn't Simon Mingolet but I don't think his catching was a well known weakness before he even arrived.

 

[C/O]

We need a thread like this for Karius.

Brilliant stuff.

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/posts/655110/

 

[Windom Earle]

Klopp has confirmed Karius as number one, so the chance is there now for him as others have called for.

Karius isn't the issue though and neither is Mignolet. It's the coaching staff. Mignolet hasn't improved in three years with Achterberg, there's a fair chance Karius won't be able to correct his issues either.

Let's hope that Alex Manninger is here in some sort of coaching capacity and that he can have a positive effect, because the current set don't seem to be very effective.

 

[manwithnoname]

Klopp has confirmed Karius as number one, so the chance is there now for him as others have called for.

Karius isn't the issue though and neither is Mignolet. It's the coaching staff. Mignolet hasn't improved in three years with Achterberg, there's a fair chance Karius won't be able to correct his issues either.

Let's hope that Alex Manninger is here in some sort of coaching capacity and that he can have a positive effect, because the current set don't seem to be very effective.

Did anyone genuinely think Karius wasn't going to be installed as Number One as soon as was feasible?

It was obvious. Although if he carries on like he has, he'll be dropped by Xmas.

 

[Modo]

We need a thread like this for Karius.

Brilliant stuff.

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/posts/655110/

I used to be quite good at photoshop...

 

[Windom Earle]

Did anyone genuinely think Karius wasn't going to be installed as Number One as soon as was feasible?

It was obvious. Although if he carries on like he has, he'll be dropped by Xmas.

Of course it was obvious. There was a bit of discussion on these boards about it when he was injured, but that was all. He's fit and he's in now. Klopp's confirmed he's number one and that Mignolet's display tomorrow night is not going to change that.

The chance is there for him to sink or swim. We can see his issues, just as Mignolet's issues are clear - so you'd hope that the coaching staff are aware of it too.

 

[manwithnoname]

Of course it was obvious. There was a bit of discussion on these boards about it when he was injured, but that was all. He's fit and he's in now. Klopp's confirmed he's number one and that Mignolet's display tomorrow night is not going to change that.

The chance is there for him to sink or swim. We can see his issues, just as Mignolet's issues are clear - so you'd hope that the coaching staff are aware of it too.

Yeah, but we seem to blame everything on the coaching staff, as if Achterberg was responsible for taking a potential new Ray Clemence, and turning him into Chris Kirkland.

I'm not saying Achterberg's great - I have no idea , but I suspect not - but the individual has to take responsibility too. Karius is clearly much better than Mignolet with his feet, but his lack of prowess with catching crosses isn't something he's learned here. He arrived being shit at it.

 

[Windom Earle]

Yeah, but we seem to blame everything on the coaching staff, as if Achterberg was responsible for taking a potential new Ray Clemence, and turning him into Chris Kirkland.

I'm not saying Achterberg's great - I have no idea , but I suspect not - but the individual has to take responsibility too. Karius is clearly much better than Mignolet with his feet, but his lack of prowess with catching crosses isn't something he's learned here. He arrived being shit at it.

Mignolet's problems were clear when Liverpool signed him. Great shot-stopper at times, caught flat-footed at others - not commanding of his area. None of those things have improved. He's maintained that consistent base of 'alright'.

A lot has changed at the club over the last few years, it's been a bit of a merry-go-round for staff and players. But one of the constants throughout has been John Achterberg. Now, I'm sure he isn't some sort of one-man coaching machine and he probably has a few that work around him - but he has presided over zero improvement in the goalkeepers he's worked with and was here for Reina's decline before he skipped off to Napoli.

If we can all see these issues with the goalkeepers (and ex-goalies are on record too having pointed out the flaws in Mignolet's game) then it stands to reason that the coaches should be able to see them too. If that's the case then they either aren't working on them or can't work on them.

You cannot seriously tell me that with a good coaching team behind him it would be reasonable to expect Mignolet to show no improvement in three years? Especially considering he arguably does the instinctive/reactionary stuff pretty well already.

 

[manwithnoname]

Mignolet's problems were clear when Liverpool signed him. Great shot-stopper at times, caught flat-footed at others - not commanding of his area. None of those things have improved. He's maintained that consistent base of 'alright'.

A lot has changed at the club over the last few years, it's been a bit of a merry-go-round for staff and players. But one of the constants throughout has been John Achterberg. Now, I'm sure he isn't some sort of one-man coaching machine and he probably has a few that work around him - but he has presided over zero improvement in the goalkeepers he's worked with and was here for Reina's decline before he skipped off to Napoli.

If we can all see these issues with the goalkeepers (and ex-goalies are on record too having pointed out the flaws in Mignolet's game) then it stands to reason that the coaches should be able to see them too. If that's the case then they either aren't working on them or can't work on them.

You cannot seriously tell me that with a good coaching team behind him it would be reasonable to expect Mignolet to show no improvement in three years? Especially considering he arguably does the instinctive/reactionary stuff pretty well already.

Maybe with certain keepers there are maybe some parts of the game that less talented/ mentally strong/ physically challenged goalkeeper simply can't ever do that well, no matter how good the coaching is.

I'm not defending Achterberg at all. I don't know. I suspect you're right, but it can't be ENTIRELY his fault.

 

[nealmac]

Hahaha! Karius a 4.
TIA gives him a 6,5. The Echo a 6.
None of them blames him for the goal. In fact not one bar some on this site have blamed him for the goal from what I've read.
Ahhh funny... The predictable ratings. Sooo predictable.

Anyway, enjoyed that win. Lovely 3 points.

And some words from our manager:
Klopp: "Who wants a clean sheet when you can get 3 points instead."

To be fair, Brendan never said he blamed him for the goal. It's his other acts of stupidity that let him down on Saturday. He's a fucking liability. I'm not a fan of Ming either, he gets a lot of stick but he was never as bad as this clown. At least with Ming you can expect him to stand up to the task of making a world class save when he needs to. This pillock is an accident waiting to happen and he's going to cost us a lot of points unless things change soon.

 

[manwithnoname]

To be fair, Brendan never said he blamed him for the goal. It's his other acts of stupidity that let him down on Saturday. He's a fucking liability. I'm not a fan of Ming either, he gets a lot of stick but he was never as bad as this clown. At least with Ming you can expect him to stand up to the task of making a world class save when he needs to. This pillock is an accident waiting to happen and he's going to cost us a lot of points unless things change soon.

Hansern just gets himself all worked up and then starts seeing things that simply aren't there. He usually calms down after a while. A few people got all het up over nothing in this thread. But it's an emotional game.

 

[ILD]

This pillock is an accident waiting to happen and he's going to cost us a lot of points unless things change soon.

As I said already, I'm not sold on Karius at all but he hasn't made any major errors. Is he really an accident waiting to happen? We aren't nervous at the back because of him. We were when Mingolet was on the goal. That nervousness permeated throughout the team. Karius does need to stop flapping at the ball though. I'm hoping he can improve on that as he settles into the team, well he f**king better. At the moment the jury is out on him, he plays ahead of Mingolet but I'm not impressed by him so far.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I could be totally off the mark here but I think how much you can coach a goalkeeper is limited. Sure you can say in this situation just fucking lump the ball upfield but mainly being a good keeper is all about special awareness. You either have that or you don't. You can't train a goalie to watch the flight of a ball.

 

[Windom Earle]

As I said already, I'm not sold on Karius at all but he hasn't made any major errors. Is he really an accident waiting to happen? We aren't nervous at the back because of him. We were when Mingolet was on the goal. That nervousness permeated throughout the team. Karius does need to stop flapping at the ball though. I'm hoping he can improve on that as he settles into the team, well he f**king better. At the moment the jury is out on him, he plays ahead of Mingolet but I'm not impressed by him so far.

What made the biggest difference to Reina's game early on at Liverpool was when he was told to stop catching. Instead, he'd thunder off his and punch the ball as far as he could.

It seems like we need that kind of keeper now. Karius or Mignolet - whoever - need to find a bit of bottle and start clattering every mother-humper in their way and put two fists straight through the ball.

I still retain a bit of hope for Karius being that kind of keeper, I don't remember Mignolet sweeping up like Karius did at Derby for example.

 

[Windom Earle]

I could be totally off the mark here but I think how much you can coach a goalkeeper is limited. Sure you can say in this situation just fucking lump the ball upfield but mainly being a good keeper is all about special awareness. You either have that or you don't. You can't train a goalie to watch the flight of a ball.

Mignolet seems to have no awareness about how 'special' he is.

His spacial awareness is garbage too!

Seriously though, if these things are worked on week in week out then of course they can be improved upon. Sure, talent plays a part but there are plenty of examples of players improving what they have - look at Beckham and his free kicks.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That as well ha

 

[manwithnoname]

What's his spatial awareness like?

 

[Windom Earle]

What's his spatial awareness like?

It's not bad, he prefers ladles though.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

We'll get there in the end eh. Unlike our goalies reaching the ball.

 

[Windom Earle]

What's his spatial awareness like?

Both are valid spellings by the way, in case you were wondering.

 

[Hansern]

Did anyone genuinely think Karius wasn't going to be installed as Number One as soon as was feasible?

It was obvious. Although if he carries on like he has, he'll be dropped by Xmas.

He wont be dropped if we're playing like we are now, and winning. His form doesnt warrant being dropped either.

If he has several games with errors leading to goals then he'll rightly be dropped obviously.

 

[RolandG]

We dominated the game and in the end made it difficult for ourselves. Top performance. Karius certainly has work to do. Not convinced yet!

 

[Mystic]

Karius will keep playing until he starts costing us points, I agree with those worrying about some of the signs he's shown, but the simple fact is we haven't lost any points due to him playing and as a result there's no reason to change. Currently he's offering exactly what Mignolet offered, but he's much calmer passing the ball around at the back, so we're better off for now with his inclusion. Now if he drops a clanger or two, maybe then this conversation needs to be escalated, but until then let's agree to label him as a cause for concern, but little else.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Mignolet's problem is simple, & irredeemable. He's a shitbag.

He's scared to make decisions, so he goes to come out then goes backwards, then freezes.

Then he realises he's being a shitbag & looks a cunt, so the next time he has the opportunity he bombs it out to prove himself, often at completely the wrong time.

Same with kicking & passing from the back, he often deliberately calls for it & makes himself available when he shouldn't as if he's trying to prove he's comfortable with it to his feet, when he's anything but.

Karius looks indecisive, but I can't say he's a shitbag with the same issues as Mignolet has, I suspect he's just second guessing his game in a new league with new coaches & over thinking things too much.

 

[Best Believe It]

Personally I was happy with the globality of Karius' performance.

 

[Ryan]

I could be totally off the mark here but I think how much you can coach a goalkeeper is limited. Sure you can say in this situation just fucking lump the ball upfield but mainly being a good keeper is all about special awareness. You either have that or you don't. You can't train a goalie to watch the flight of a ball.

Yep mate, you're wrong.

 

[Fabio]

Yup

achterberg is evidence of coaching done poorly

 

[Dreambeliever]

Only one can be the designated keeper. The other 'keeper' could stand on the goal but only use his body to try stop the ball. You'd then have problems arising from the 2nd player playing attackers on side. I'm sure some idiots have attempted it somewhere around the world.

I played in a goal in a game once when I had a slight injury.

We had a corner and the opposition broke quickly and were 2 on 1 against me.

As they tried to pass the ball to each other I just ran up the pitch.

They though they had scored until I pointed out to the ref that with me 50 yards from goal their was nobody to play them onside.

Goal was ruled out and they were ropable 😀

 

[gkmacca]

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/ming.89998/