Tevez (this years Barry thread?)

[TheBunnyman]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33378.msg864914#msg864914 date=1242123297]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33378.msg864907#msg864907 date=1242122987]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33378.msg864898#msg864898 date=1242122582]
Giggs has averaged around 40+ games a season for the scum no?
[/quote]

803 'appearances' in 19 seasons, so that's an average of 43 appearances a season. That is just appearances though, so a chunk of that will be from the bench, and this is in all competitions too (inc the Community Shield, World Club Championship, Super Cup etc)
[/quote]That also doesnt tell us how many he's played since his injuries started. I mean for fucking years he was first name on the teamsheet.
I dont think we should get fixated on what may or may not happen based on what Giggs career went like. The point is it wont go away, and we need a plan b. Tevez and Kuyt represent a very good alternative in my eyes.
[/quote]

See, that's where I'm baffled. Torres is sleek and deadly as a panther. Tevez and Kuyt are more like wild boars. Or headless chickens, if you're being uncharitable. Neither has real pace. Neither is a clinical finisher. We could still score goals with those two up front but we'd have to completely alter the way we play. I'd rather get someone who, while not as good as Torres (who is?) could at least replicate in some way his mode of play. In the midprice range, I guess you'd be looking at someone like Bent or Kanouté or Martins.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33378.msg864922#msg864922 date=1242123634]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33378.msg864914#msg864914 date=1242123297]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33378.msg864907#msg864907 date=1242122987]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33378.msg864898#msg864898 date=1242122582]
Giggs has averaged around 40+ games a season for the scum no?
[/quote]

803 'appearances' in 19 seasons, so that's an average of 43 appearances a season. That is just appearances though, so a chunk of that will be from the bench, and this is in all competitions too (inc the Community Shield, World Club Championship, Super Cup etc)
[/quote]That also doesnt tell us how many he's played since his injuries started. I mean for fucking years he was first name on the teamsheet.
I dont think we should get fixated on what may or may not happen based on what Giggs career went like. The point is it wont go away, and we need a plan b. Tevez and Kuyt represent a very good alternative in my eyes.
[/quote]

See, that's where I'm baffled. Torres is sleek and deadly as a panther. Tevez and Kuyt are more like wild boars. Or headless chickens, if you're being uncharitable. Neither has real pace. Neither is a clinical finisher. We could still score goals with those two up front but we'd have to completely alter the way we play. I'd rather get someone who, while not as good as Torres (who is?) could at least replicate in some way his mode of play. In the midprice range, I guess you'd be looking at someone like Bent or Kanouté or Martins.

[/quote]

Its the same old problem though.

Those types of players will still have to be good enough to do the job when required (hefty fee), but would they just come and sit on the bench (or simply hope that Torres gets injured)?

With Tevez at least we know we could get a lot of quality use out of him playing wide right of a front 3, as well as being more than useful cover if Torres is out for what ever reason.

 

[keniget]

Re: Tevez

The 4-2-3-1 formation does make it quite difficult when it comes to bringing in strikers.

In it's current form, we need someone up top with pace to give us that edge in attack. This kind of precludes buying someone old or less mobile because we end up with very little pace in attack and become overly reliant on playing through the opposition (which we struggle with). So really we need a young pacey striker that would accept playing out wide and / or sitting on the bench. That's a tough ask, particularly when you take into account that they have to be of a certain quality.

The other option available to us is to overload the wings with pace so that it limits the effect of not having that much pace in the middle. That would open up the striker market a bit more for us, but there are very few wide players that fit this bill, we don't seem to be targetting such players (Silva) and none of existing lot fit the mould either.

If Aguero would be willing to play wide-left, I think I'd be quite happy to spend our entire budget on him. He's a better version of Tevez.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33378.msg864945#msg864945 date=1242125538]
If Aguero would be willing to play wide-left, I think I'd be quite happy to spend our entire budget on him. He's a better version of Tevez.
[/quote]

a few points ...

a) i agree, but not entire budget ... let's leave a few million to get some kiddies in
b) i was talking to my mate in Madrid and he's very sour on Aguero for some reason ... says he's a spoiled kid, who doesn't play for the team. he was being serious when he said, "give me babel + 20 mill and he's yours" ... Not sure if he's 'Rafa's type' of player but I would guess he'd give him a chance if we had any chance of landing him (i mean, he gave bellers and pennant a chance too)

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33378.msg864945#msg864945 date=1242125538]
The 4-2-3-1 formation does make it quite difficult when it comes to bringing in strikers.
In it's current form, we need someone up top with pace to give us that edge in attack. This kind of precludes buying someone old or less mobile because we end up with very little pace in attack and become overly reliant on playing through the opposition (which we struggle with). So really we need a young pacey striker that would accept playing out wide and / or sitting on the bench. That's a tough ask, particularly when you take into account that they have to be of a certain quality.

The other option available to us is to overload the wings with pace so that it limits the effect of not having that much pace in the middle. That would open up the striker market a bit more for us, but there are very few wide players that fit this bill, we don't seem to be targetting such players (Silva) and none of existing lot fit the mould either.

If Aguero would be willing to play wide-left, I think I'd be quite happy to spend our entire budget on him. He's a better version of Tevez.
[/quote]

Yeah i agree with you Keni.

Look at Negrado's recent comments for an example of this. He's all but stated that he wouldn't come to us, due to the fact that he knows that he won't get much game time.

Personally this is one of the reasons that I'd keep hold of Babel. It might be wishful thinking but it would be very useful if someone like N'Gog or Nemeth could make the step up as well.

 

[keniget]

Re: Tevez

Plus there were rumours that he and Torres don't get on, weren't there? Don't know if that was nonsense or not.

Maybe Aguero is fed up of him and Forlan scoring three a game and still drawing / losing thanks to their pitiful midfield and defence. We only have to look at Nando to see what playing for a winning team can do to for your mentality - he looked like a broken man in that last season at Atletico.

 

[spider-Neil]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33378.msg864895#msg864895 date=1242122475]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33378.msg864879#msg864879 date=1242121835]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33378.msg864876#msg864876 date=1242121592]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33378.msg864873#msg864873 date=1242121280]
That's a really horrible outlook on things, but it's been in the back of our minds all season I guess.

We finally get a world class striker and after one season, the injury worries kick in. Poo.

Still, if he ends up as decorated as Giggs, it won't be so bad, eh...
[/quote]Id rather have Nando half fit for half a season than almost any other striker fully fit. [/quote]

I don't know about THAT one. you'd rather have a striker for half a season (no matter how prolificic) than a very good striker for a full season? one is going to score in bursts (how else will he get near the top of the scoring charts despite half the games) and the other will give you a consistant steady stream of goals all season long. no offence but I know which one I'd rather. I'd love nando to win the golden boot but I'd love the league far more. hopefully a non issue if nando avoids injury next season.
[/quote]You mean a very good striker like Keane, Adebayor, Van Persie, Defoe, Agbonlahor, Drogba, Crouch, Rooney, all of whom Torres has outscored this year?
There is no guarantee with injuries, but you can guarantee when fit Torres will outscore almost ANYONE.
Thats why i wouldnt swap him Neil, because in those 'bursts' he will still get bunches of goals, whats important is that his cover keeps the ratio up.
Et'oo or Villa. Other than that i wouldnt even think about it.
[/quote]

that list is filled with strikers who have been injured (so we're no better off) playing for poor teams (so an unknown quantity) or forwards rather than out and out strikers.
in an ideal world we should be after a striker who knows where the goal is, is comfortable out wide, through the middle or on his own and isn't likely to be injured for very long. anelka ticks the boxes but that ship has sailed.

I'd still like to keep a hold of babel rather than lose him for a pittence and in all likelihood replace him with someone no better, and continue to at the end of the year he will still only be 23.

 

[mark1975]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33378.msg864922#msg864922 date=1242123634]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33378.msg864914#msg864914 date=1242123297]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33378.msg864907#msg864907 date=1242122987]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33378.msg864898#msg864898 date=1242122582]
Giggs has averaged around 40+ games a season for the scum no?
[/quote]

803 'appearances' in 19 seasons, so that's an average of 43 appearances a season. That is just appearances though, so a chunk of that will be from the bench, and this is in all competitions too (inc the Community Shield, World Club Championship, Super Cup etc)
[/quote]That also doesnt tell us how many he's played since his injuries started. I mean for fucking years he was first name on the teamsheet.
I dont think we should get fixated on what may or may not happen based on what Giggs career went like. The point is it wont go away, and we need a plan b. Tevez and Kuyt represent a very good alternative in my eyes.
[/quote]

See, that's where I'm baffled. Torres is sleek and deadly as a panther. Tevez and Kuyt are more like wild boars. Or headless chickens, if you're being uncharitable. Neither has real pace. Neither is a clinical finisher. We could still score goals with those two up front but we'd have to completely alter the way we play. I'd rather get someone who, while not as good as Torres (who is?) could at least replicate in some way his mode of play. In the midprice range, I guess you'd be looking at someone like Bent or Kanouté or Martins.

[/quote]

I think that's fairly spot on, Tevez would be a good addition in my eyes, but we're not really looking for additions, however much I would love us to sign him. Ideally, we'd add a top brass winger and as you said, a like for like replacement for Torres (in terms of style, obviously we'd be hard pushed to find someone of near quality). I think Bent is still a sound option.

 

[Y1]

Re: Tevez

Now that Kuyt is an untouchable being a duracell on the right, just imagine having an energiser of the left? It will enough to drive any opposition crazy.

 

[Judge Jules]

Re: Tevez

Playing one up front is one of the problems Rafa faces when looking for a further striking option, but another is Torres' sheer quality. We need someone who (a) won't have a problem knowing he's second choice from the start but (b) can perform well enough for a title-chasing team in his own right when his chances do come along. Helluva difficult balance to strike.

Is Tevez the man? I've always liked him as a player but to me the answer's no. I think he is good enough (no stand-in's going to score as often as, let alone more often than, Torres) but there isn't a snowflake's chance in Hell that he'd be willing to act as second fiddle, nor should he be. If he comes to us he could well end up floating around the squad and the team with no clearly defined role to play, and that's ultimately what's blighted his time at Old Toilet.

 

[TheBunnyman]

Re: Tevez

Thierry Henry might be an option, if Ribery goes to Barca. He could play as the left forward for us when Torres is fit (similar to his role at Barca) and would be a decent replacement for Torres when he's not fit. He's also a winner with loads of experience, and it would make Stevie happy. A short-term solution, perhaps, but one I'd be happy with.

 

[Preston]

Re: Tevez

Bent fits the bill perfectly.

Good value ~ 10m.
Pace.
Similar attributes to Torres.
Benitez likes him.
Has been used sparingly by Spurs.
...
...

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33378.msg864987#msg864987 date=1242130212]
Playing one up front is one of the problems Rafa faces when looking for a further striking option, but another is Torres' sheer quality. We need someone who (a) won't have a problem knowing he's second choice from the start but (b) can perform well enough for a title-chasing team in his own right when his chances do come along. Helluva difficult balance to strike.

Is Tevez the man? I've always liked him as a player but to me the answer's no. I think he is good enough (no stand-in's going to score as often as, let alone more often than, Torres) but there isn't a snowflake's chance in Hell that he'd be willing to act as second fiddle, nor should he be. If he comes to us he could well end up floating around the squad and the team with no clearly defined role to play, and that's ultimately what's blighted his time at Old Toilet.
[/quote]

I think any striker that will come to us would accept that Torres is one of the top three strikers in the world. There is no stigma in playing "second fiddle" to him. I am sure that Tevez sees himself for what he is, and has no delusions.
As long as he fits in with the system, which I am sure he would there is no issue, he , like any top player, just wants regular games.
Even Rafa would not spend £25m on a player and not know what to do with him . He would have a defined role, playing as part of a front two, perhaps just off Torres.

regards

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33378.msg864994#msg864994 date=1242131517]
Thierry Henry might be an option, if Ribery goes to Barca. He could play as the left forward for us when Torres is fit (similar to his role at Barca) and would be a decent replacement for Torres when he's not fit. He's also a winner with loads of experience, and it would make Stevie happy. A short-term solution, perhaps, but one I'd be happy with.
[/quote]

Ribery should come here, but if he does go to Barca we should have a look at Henry, he'd be excellent for us.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Preston link=topic=33378.msg865000#msg865000 date=1242131965]
Bent fits the bill perfectly.

Good value ~ 10m.
Pace.
Similar attributes to Torres.
Benitez likes him.
Has been used sparingly by Spurs.
...
...
[/quote]

I think the argument falls down as soon as you mentioned "good value".
Good value is not the best available, good value is not always the right player. Look at the Tevez argument. Is Tevez worth twice what Dirk is , probably not is the answer. He is not twice the player, but he is a better player, and value / trade in players becomes disproportionate the higher the quality of the player. If we want to be the best and compete we need pay for top players.
That is manifested in Torres.

regards

 

[TheBunnyman]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=33378.msg865006#msg865006 date=1242132302]
[quote author=Preston link=topic=33378.msg865000#msg865000 date=1242131965]
Bent fits the bill perfectly.

Good value ~ 10m.
Pace.
Similar attributes to Torres.
Benitez likes him.
Has been used sparingly by Spurs.
...
...
[/quote]

I think the argument falls down as soon as you mentioned "good value".
Good value is not the best available, good value is not always the right player. Look at the Tevez argument. Is Tevez worth twice what Dirk is , probably not is the answer. He is not twice the player, but he is a better player, and value / trade in players becomes disproportionate the higher the quality of the player. If we want to be the best and compete we need pay for top players.
That is manifested in Torres.

regards
[/quote]

Torres was 'good value' whichever way you look at it.

 

[Preston]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=33378.msg865006#msg865006 date=1242132302]
[quote author=Preston link=topic=33378.msg865000#msg865000 date=1242131965]
Bent fits the bill perfectly.

Good value ~ 10m.
Pace.
Similar attributes to Torres.
Benitez likes him.
Has been used sparingly by Spurs.
...
...
[/quote]

I think the argument falls down as soon as you mentioned "good value".
Good value is not the best available, good value is not always the right player. Look at the Tevez argument. Is Tevez worth twice what Dirk is , probably not is the answer. He is not twice the player, but he is a better player, and value / trade in players becomes disproportionate the higher the quality of the player. If we want to be the best and compete we need pay for top players.
That is manifested in Torres.

regards
[/quote]

we essentially want a stand in torres not a top quality partner for him.

the 4231 is our standard formation - yeah it'll get tinkered with for various games, but when everyone's fit it's gonna be one up front.

top quality width is still required particularly at RB and LW.

 

[Holle]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33378.msg864994#msg864994 date=1242131517]
Thierry Henry might be an option, if Ribery goes to Barca. He could play as the left forward for us when Torres is fit (similar to his role at Barca) and would be a decent replacement for Torres when he's not fit. He's also a winner with loads of experience, and it would make Stevie happy. A short-term solution, perhaps, but one I'd be happy with.
[/quote]

Thierry Henry could still be great for us, as we don't stand a chance to sign Ribery, I fear.

A bit off-topic I know, but how's Benzema doing?

 

[TheBunnyman]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=33378.msg865039#msg865039 date=1242135855]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33378.msg864994#msg864994 date=1242131517]
Thierry Henry might be an option, if Ribery goes to Barca. He could play as the left forward for us when Torres is fit (similar to his role at Barca) and would be a decent replacement for Torres when he's not fit. He's also a winner with loads of experience, and it would make Stevie happy. A short-term solution, perhaps, but one I'd be happy with.
[/quote]

Thierry Henry could still be great for us, as we don't stand a chance to sign Ribery, I fear.

A bit off-topic I know, but how's Benzema doing?
[/quote]

He's had a dip this season, I think, probably because he's playing for the worst Lyon team in a decade. Looks to me like he needs to improve his fitness and possibly his attitude, but he's still got all the physical and footballing attributes that made me yearn for him two years ago, and which (unfortunately) fix his price at about £30-35m on the current market. I don't think we've ever really been linked with him, have we?

 

[gkmacca]

Re: Tevez

Ribery proudly displays his 'little killing machine':

Ha ha! Pretty boy Tevez had no chance once I let my little friend bite his face! Now for Torres. Kuyt is already fine. Soon I will be the most handsome man in football!

 

[refugee]

Re: Tevez

Apologies if already posted

[quote author=Skyports]
Kia Joorabchian expects Carlos Tevez to leave Manchester United in the summer and has hinted that he is likely to join another Premier League club.

Tevez's two-year loan deal at Old Trafford expires at the end of the season and the Argentine announced over the weekend that he still had not been offered a permanent contract.

Joorabchian has now explained that, while the striker has enjoyed his spell with the Red Devils, he is now thinking about embarking on a new challenge.

"He feels there is a very big chance that his time has come to an end and it is time to move on," Joorabchian, Tevez's advisor, exclusively told Sky Sports News.

"He loved his time there, he mentioned that, and the glory he has had there has been very special to him.

"But the fact that they have not offered him a contract or made any effort to sign him up means that he probably has to move on and think about his own future."
Focused

Tevez's recent comments have sparked speculation about where he could be plying his trade next season but Joorabchian maintains that he will keep battling as hard as he can for the United cause over the coming weeks.

Joorabchian also added that Tevez's goal celebration in Sunday's Manchester United derby, when he cupped his hands behind his ears, was directed at those members of the English press that had suggested he was not a prolific scorer.

He continued: "There is a lot of interest in Carlos but he has always been very focused and concentrated, for the respect of the club, the manager and the supporters he has to stay focused

"As you saw on Sunday, he will work his socks off whenever he is picked and make sure he performs to his highest level."

Joorabchian insists Tevez's preference would be to stay in England, although playing in the UEFA Champions League would not necessarily be a major factor in his decision.

Ambition

Tevez is more concerned with joining a club that has a lot of ambition and Joorabchian refused to rule out a possible move to Manchester City.

He said: "Everyone wants to play in the biggest competition they can and the Champions League is the biggest, but Carlos is not the kind of person that says I have to play for this club in this situation.

"What he wants to do is to go to a club that has a real ambition to be champions of England and champions of Europe.

"He would have to go to a rival to achieve that target but he also understands that it is not in his control."

Asked specifically about Man City, Joorabchian added: "I don't want to direct (speculation by) saying it is going to be Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, Tottenham, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus.

"At this moment in time Carlos is a Manchester United player and he is focused on staying a Manchester United player until the end of the season."
[/quote]

 

[calder]

Re: Tevez

Its slly people saying Tevez won't fit, he'd replace Reira in the team. This would give us a front four of Gerrard, Torres Kuyt and Tevez, the positions will be changing throughout the game as all can switch and work hard, we would have a solid enough base in midfield to do this from. All we would need then is a good fast attacking right back and I think we'll be set.

 

[gkmacca]

Re: Tevez

Joorabchian is such a slimey character. I wish he was kept as far away from the game as possible.

 

[manwithnoname]

Re: Tevez

Joorabchian is the sort of slimy- looking cunt who would never, ever tire of punching in the face

 

[rebel23]

Re: Tevez

from that interview if he does leave it will be to one of the top 4. there is no chance in hell a player like Tevez would want to join City even if they offered gazillions unless his 'owner' really does hold that much sway

 

[refugee]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33378.msg865139#msg865139 date=1242147020]
from that interview if he does leave it will be to one of the top 4. there is no chance in hell a player like Tevez would want to join City even if they offered gazillions unless his 'owner' really does hold that much sway
[/quote]

He went to West Ham.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=refugee link=topic=33378.msg865142#msg865142 date=1242147323]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33378.msg865139#msg865139 date=1242147020]
from that interview if he does leave it will be to one of the top 4. there is no chance in hell a player like Tevez would want to join City even if they offered gazillions unless his 'owner' really does hold that much sway
[/quote]

He went to West Ham.
[/quote]

Haha.

 

[Oncy]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=refugee link=topic=33378.msg865142#msg865142 date=1242147323]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33378.msg865139#msg865139 date=1242147020]
from that interview if he does leave it will be to one of the top 4. there is no chance in hell a player like Tevez would want to join City even if they offered gazillions unless his 'owner' really does hold that much sway
[/quote]

He went to West Ham.
[/quote]..and JUST SAID the champions league isnt the be all and end all.
Fuck me Rebel, its practically an invite to citeh to make an offer.
You frighten me at times.

 

[Paddy]

Re: Tevez

Rebel is a ticking time bomb.

 

[Judge Jules]

Re: Tevez

[quote author=calder link=topic=33378.msg865132#msg865132 date=1242146480]
Its slly people saying Tevez won't fit, he'd replace Reira in the team. This would give us a front four of Gerrard, Torres Kuyt and Tevez, the positions will be changing throughout the game as all can switch and work hard, we would have a solid enough base in midfield to do this from. All we would need then is a good fast attacking right back and I think we'll be set.
[/quote]

It's not the slightest bit "silly". Tevez hasn't played that role before, Stevie's already fed up with playing wide for club and country, Deadly hardly ever drifts over to the left even when he plays centre-forward, and we'd STILL have no proper wide player.