Sahin and Gerrard

[rurikbird]

I was one of the posters who had high hopes for Sahin at Liverpool. For anyone who likes searching for old posts that make certain posters look like fools, here, I'll make your job easier:
http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/dear-keniget-please-type.21489/#post-780447

I didn't have time to write anything about Sahin's departure when it happened, but now I have some time and here's what I think. I would not say I am a fan of Sahin as a player as much as I am a fan of this type of player in general - the midfield controller, the Pirlo-Xabi-Carrick type. There are very few players like this (some say it's a dying breed), so whenever one like this appears, I try to follow his career and become kind of a fan, no matter which team one plays for. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Carrick.

Why did Sahin fail at Liverpool? The most often heard explanation seems to be that he was "ill suited for the physical nature of the Premiership." Which is nothing but a lazy cliche that gets slapped on any foreign player at the first sign of struggle in England. In each such case, it's better to go back and check if there were actually any real signs that a player is struggling physically or cannot adjust to the pace of the game. In Sahin's case, there is not much evidence of either. He was rarely caught in possession, has quicker feet than most EPL midfielders and his decision-making certainly seemed quick enough for the Premiership. And while he is no Roy Keane, he was not bullied around. There is a better case for Joe Allen not being suited for the Premiership than for Sahin.

There are some other explanations I've heard that border on the insane. "Sahin lacked tactical awareness?" Tactical awareness more than anything defines Sahin as a player. Saying that Sahin lacks tactical awareness is like saying Theo Walcott is too slow and John Terry is too much of a gentleman. Not to mention that most central and defensive midfielders in the EPL aren't exactly tactical geniuses, even compared to their counterparts in Italy, Germany and Spain. To put it another way, I don't think Sahin could fail a tactical intelligence test in a league graced by Robbie Savage.

The real problem for Sahin turned out to be Gerrard. Actually, there were 2 problems that in combination made Sahin's task very difficult. First, with age Gerrard started feeling more comfortable playing deeper and has essentially evolved into a Xabi-like controller himself. It seems so logical now (loss of pace and flexibility on the negative side - increase in discipline and understanding of the game on the plus side - and add the great long-range passing Gerrard has always been known for) that it makes me even more ashamed for not having predicted or noticed this transition when it was already on the way. Even as late as 2 or 3 months ago I was still clamoring for Gerrard to be playing in the front 3, even though his game has been already for some time evolving in the opposite direction.

I should have seen and understood this earlier, but I think in the beginning of the season neither Rodgers nor even Gerrard himself knew where exactly his game would evolve. It seems to me the first few months of the season Gerrard was trying to test his new limits and little by little he was able to find out what he can and cannot do at this new stage of his career. Now that he has a better understanding of what kind of player he is now, as opposed to what kind of player he was 3-4 years ago, the efficiency of his performance has markedly improved. This was a long process of self-rediscovery and it probably took some toll on our results in the first half of the season, but it was necessary, and I give Rodgers credit for affording Gerrard time and complete faith when even some of our loyal fans were saying that Gerrard was "done." It was a pragmatic move by the manager who knew that with the squad he has inherited, and with our financial situation, he could not afford not to give one of our two remaining world-class players a chance to rediscover his game, even if this possibly shortchanged our results in the short term. And you could say it was also a morally correct move, because Gerrard, more than most other players, has earned some special treatment by his loyalty to this club.

So in light of all of this, I don't think we can blame Rodgers for not being able to predict that Gerrard would evolve to take over the position he originally intended for Sahin. Who knew if Gerrard could even stay healthy? But he did, and that created another insurmountable problem for Sahin. Usually a young understudy gets his chance whenever the veteran is injured or needs a break. Unfortunately, from Sahin's perspective, Gerrard was fit enough to play every single minute of every important game. So essentially the only way Sahin could prove his worth was by playing further up the field, in a position that doesn't use his best qualities and requires much more dynamism and ball-carrying ability than he has. Sahin is definitely not a jack-of-all-trades player like Gerrard, he is a specialist for a certain role and his struggles at Real and Liverpool notwithstanding, he still has a chance to become a world-class player in this particular role. But if it's going to happen, it will happen in Dortmund. I wish him the best of luck. As for us, I hope Stevie will prove that Rodgers has made the right choice by betting on him.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Gerrard could play left back and still be the best player on the pitch

 

[Farkmaster]

Wasn't Sahin played in a more advanced role? And wasn't Gerrard mediocre at that point in time, as he has been for most of this season, apparently forgotten due to him finding some form in recent games?

Gerrard hasn't evolved into anything, he's deteriorated both personally, and in the clarity of his role in the team, ever since "the best midfield in the world" was dismantled. He's certainly not a Xabi like controller of the game. He finds Xabi's passing range at time, but he doesn't have his understanding of how to manage a game, when to settle things, when we just need to hold the ball for a while. Gerrard can do things Xabi can't, and I'd like to see him doing more of those things. Gerrard yet again does a bit of everything, as he has so many times when our midfield is mediocre. He'll go wherever he's needed. He's just not as good at it anymore.

Brendan hasn't developed a clear idea of our midfield, I don't think, and when Gerrard is on form, he looks very good anywhere, but I don't see any grand vision at work, and I certainly don't think he's cemented a particular role in our dysfunctional midfield. Our midfield is not capable of holding possession under pressure, and that is the whole premise of the style of football we're supposed to be building toward.

If it were actually the case that Rodgers was surprised to learn Gerrard could play in a deep lying playmaking role, that'd be pretty disturbing. He's played there in our team, several times, for previous managers, he's played there internationally.

 

[refugee]

I've never seen Şahin play before he came here so I can't say if that was a good post, but it was a good read. Cheers.

 

[Farkmaster]

Gerrard could play left back and still be the best player on the pitch

Those days are gone.

 

[Rafiagra]

In a press conference, Rodgers mentioned players who talked up wanting to be here but didn't demonstrate it by turning up late etc.

My thought was that he was referring to Sahin.

If he is as good as said, he should have been playing in our first team

 

[keniget]

Much as I enjoyed reading your post, I have to agree with Fark.

I think you've read too much into things.

 

[Delinquent]

If it were actually the case that Rodgers was surprised to learn Gerrard could play in a deep lying playmaking role, that'd be pretty disturbing. He's played there in our team, several times, for previous managers, he's played there internationally.

Having said that, there are many around these parts who maintain that he's incapable of playing that role. I think it's much less important whether Gerrard plays deep or advanced, and much more important that we have quality players around him. He's shown he's perfectly capable in either role, and he's made it clear before now that he prefers a more traditional central midfield role. And as his ability (and inclination) to score goals deteriorates, it may just be the most suitable role for him.

 

[RedStar]

Gerrard could play left back and still be the best player on the pitch

Some of his performances this season in central midfield make a mockery of that sort of thinking

 

[RedStar]

we need to stat planning for a team without Gerrard, thats not to say hes finished but between form fitness and age its a law of diminishing returns from here on out. There is nothing to say he couldnt play another 2 or 3 more season, but not as the first name on the teamsheet. A new manager would be foolish to try to build a new young team around a midfielder of Gerrards age.

I was happy enough with the signing of Sahin but for whatever reason he never really got going with us, he wasnt here long enough to say it couldnt have worked in the long run but he came with the express purpose of getting games and he wasnt getting that so the plug was pulled, fair enough. But at least it shows a willingness on Rodgers part to face the fact that we while we may not need to replace Gerrard urgently we need alternatives.

At the moment our midfield is all over the place but when you look at the fact that we have had Allen who started great and went into freefall, Gerrard who started horribly and regained some consistency, Lucas who is still trying to feel his way back, Henderson who is still in the long process of rehabilitating his confidence after last season and Shelvey who only seems to play well in patches its very difficult to say who constitutes our best midfield at any point in time. That lack of consistency is showing, by the end of the season we should know where we stand with everybody fit and competing for places over the next 4 months

 

[dmishra]

Having said that, there are many around these parts who maintain that he's incapable of playing that role. I think it's much less important whether Gerrard plays deep or advanced, and much more important that we have quality players around him. He's shown he's perfectly capable in either role, and he's made it clear before now that he prefers a more traditional central midfield role. And as his ability (and inclination) to score goals deteriorates, it may just be the most suitable role for him.

Fark has pretty much nailed it, I think. I've been one of the most vocal critics of him playing deeper, but to my mind that has always been less a capability, and more a functionality and optimisation argument (even if I may have phrased it differently at the time).

He's certainly 'capable' of playing anywhere, that's been his unique quality. I just don't think playing him deeper gets the best out of him or highlights his best qualities. Also, it especially didn't make sense to me when we had a quality player like Sahin at our disposal to play in that position.

With Sahin gone now, that argument needs revisiting. However, in the long run, I'd be much happier having more natural deeper players playing in deep positions.

 

[dmishra]

Btw, rurik, have you been following Milan Badelj of Hamburg? Closest thing I've seen to Alonso for a while.

 

[rurikbird]

Wasn't Şahin played in a more advanced role? And wasn't Gerrard mediocre at that point in time, as he has been for most of this season, apparently forgotten due to him finding some form in recent games?

Yes and yes. Sahin was played in a more advanced role that he is not suited for, and Gerrard went through a mediocre first half of the season while playing in Sahin's favorite position. But for me, Gerrard's recent upturn in form is not a fluke or a coincidence, but rather a result of a process of readjustment. He still cannot do many of the things he was capable of before, but now he has better understanding of what he can or cannot do, so he can be more efficient.

Gerrard hasn't evolved into anything, he's deteriorated both personally, and in the clarity of his role in the team, ever since "the best midfield in the world" was dismantled. He's certainly not a Xabi like controller of the game. He finds Xabi's passing range at time, but he doesn't have his understanding of how to manage a game, when to settle things, when we just need to hold the ball for a while. Gerrard can do things Xabi can't, and I'd like to see him doing more of those things. Gerrard yet again does a bit of everything, as he has so many times when our midfield is mediocre. He'll go wherever he's needed. He's just not as good at it anymore.

I disagree with many things here. Gerrard certainly has lost some turn of pace and his shot now lacks power and accuracy compared to his peak years. But I've been also pleasantly surprised how much he gained in understanding of the game, as evidenced by his performances in the last month or so. It's more evolution and adjusting to the new realities than "deterioration." In baseball, it's common for pitchers to lose velocity after they hit 30. Many struggle with the transition from being the overpowering type to the precision and control type, but truly great ones usually make the transition successfully and sometimes become even more effective late in their career compared to their younger, flame-throwing years. This is what Gerrard is doing IMO and so far he is on the right track.

His role in the team was never too clear to begin with, under Rafa he played in different positions and precisely because of his lack of positional discipline Rafa preferred to use him in a kind of a free role. Now he seems to be settling into a more defined role for the first time. Far from his free-roaming days, he is now anchoring the team. Is he better than Xabi at this? That's actually irrelevant. Xabi is gone. What matters is that Gerrard is by far the best anchor we have in this squad, that we are better off with Gerrard than without him and that this new role is what suits him best at this stage of his career.

Brendan hasn't developed a clear idea of our midfield, I don't think, and when Gerrard is on form, he looks very good anywhere, but I don't see any grand vision at work, and I certainly don't think he's cemented a particular role in our dysfunctional midfield. Our midfield is not capable of holding possession under pressure, and that is the whole premise of the style of football we're supposed to be building toward.

I think we will not see Brendan's vision fully realized until Allen rights the ship - or is replaced by someone else capable of playing the role Allen was supposed to play. I think it's naive to expect things to fall into place immediately in a team that was nothing short of dysfunctional when Rodgers took over. I don't agree with everything Rodgers does, but I can see the steady, patient work that he does with the team and with individual players and what I like most most of all is that he is taking a long-term view.

If it were actually the case that Rodgers was surprised to learn Gerrard could play in a deep lying playmaking role, that'd be pretty disturbing. He's played there in our team, several times, for previous managers, he's played there internationally.

That's not what I said. Of course Rodgers knew that Gerrard could play as the anchor, in principle. But judging by some interviews, he did initially consider Gerrard for a more attacking role. That was the plan, that's why Sahin capture was such a priority in the summer. But when Gerrard tried running our attacking game early in the season, all he did was lose the ball and put our defense under pressure. He had to readjust and he did. Now our fans need to adjust to the idea of the new Gerrard and start appreciating him not for the player he once was, but for the player he is right now.

 

[rurikbird]

Btw, rurik, have you been following Milan Badelj of Hamburg? Closest thing I've seen to Alonso for a while.

No, I was very busy lately, haven't watched Bundesliga in a while. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Farkmaster]

Yea, see we agree on a lot of things, including having patience for Rodgers to achieve his vision. What we aren't going to agree on is any even medium term model for our midfield that includes Gerrard playing as a deep lying midfielder. The fact that Gerrard is playing that role is symptomatic of our midfield troubles for me, and while pragmatism may suggest it's the right choice now, it's not something to build around. Our slightly better, but still mediocre results with an easy run of games may also somewhat coincide with Gerrard finding better form, but that doesn't mean he's somehow evolving into that role. He's not that player, he just plays one on TV. An on form Gerrard can have great performances in several positions in midfield, but he's had his share of bad performances there as well.

Further, I have to say that while I'm quite patient and and believe to some extent in the playstyle we are building toward, I don't see Gerrard being at the center of dictating it. I just don't think that's his identity as a player. The least convincing thing about Rodgers for me thus so far has been the defense, and his inability to find a proper midfield balance against more competitive sides. I'm not so sure it's a matter of just Allen not having form - we've had a really inconsistent midfield 3, not just in terms of rotation, but in terms of who is set out to play where. We look to be finding a little more consistency there, but it's still not convincing to me.

 

[rurikbird]

Ok mate, I understand your point and I guess we'll have to let the time tell about Gerrard's future as the midfield controller. I just don't see Gerrard ever making a comeback as a front 3 player so if he is going to play any kind of important role in this team in the next few years, it's probably going to be as a deep-lying playmaker.

Am I 100% convinced that Gerrard is the new Alonso? Of course not. It's too early to be convinced at this stage. But I do see the signs of him making his game more controlled, based more on intelligence than instinct and power. Early in the season was when he tried to do everything; he has been better of late precisely because now he picks his battles better. If his body holds up, he can be at the very least what Giggs or Scholes have been for United in the last stage of their careers. If there is one thing I know after watching Liverpool for so many years is never to bet against Gerrard doing something surprising and incredible.

 

[Judge Jules]

Good summary, and I agree with you. I'd add that, Gerrard's attacking prowess notwithstanding, I've always thought his career might develop along these lines as he got into his early 30s, so it's interesting to see it starting to happen.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Great thread here.

 

[rurikbird]

If there is one thing I know after watching Liverpool for so many years is never to bet against Gerrard doing something surprising and incredible.

He did it again! What a hit, son, what a hit!