Ming

[Molbystwin]

Ming is certainly not "shit." He leads all PL goalkeepers in clean sheets in 2015. Last season he has been voted our 3rd best player by fans, only behind Phil and Raheem. It's a bit strange how the same set of fans can rate a player so highly based on game-by-game performance and so low in overall judgement. Maybe it's his fat punchable face and not the most assured body language that contributes to this less than charitable impression? Kind of like Sakho with his "awkward" posture.

Like I said earlier in another thread, his only consistent weakness is distribution. Sometimes when this weakness is repeatedly exposed it can affect his overall confidence, but lately I think he learned to deal with this better. He also looks like the type who is likely to improve with age and experience. Let's give him a chance until the end of the season and see how he progresses "under the new management." Klopp has a point; we are too quick to give up on players.

I must be labouring under the group delusion that he is shit then...

I don't get it really, there was a similar albeit considerably more angry debate over a winger we had a few years back also... Stats...

Can Ming stop good shots, yes he can on occasion.

Does Ming command his area well and bring confidence to the back?No.
Does Ming kick/distribute the ball well? No
Does he engage in absolute clangers more than you would hope for from your goalkeeper? Yes
Is he new in the side or inexperienced? No

I admire that Klopp is willing to work with all the players he has inherited and not in a rush to throw anybody under the press bus... Good stuff...

I will be fucking gobsmacked if Ming can improve his multiple and glaring weaknesses enough to ever genuinely warrant a place in out goal. He is simply one of the dodgiest keepers I've ever seen and easily the worst we've ever had over an extended period of time.

 

[TheFasterBlade]

Minge

 

[Squiggles]

Minge

Nah, even a minge can fire a ball in a straight line.

 

[JohnnyRocket]

Klopp would know that the goalkeeper is the one position where you don't start screwing around with confidence. I'm 100% sure we are thinking of a keeper, but he's not going to come out and say that now, is he? Then you have a demoralised, can't be arsed Mignolet in goal for months.

He's basically saying to Mignolet - Here's your chance go prove yourself worthy of a place in this team.

 

[peekay]

Mignolet's form a year ago was so poor that he was replaced by a player who just got released by Bradford after 3 games.

He is a decent shot stopper. But I think most premier league goalkeepers nowadays if you watch them over 3-4 games pull of a occasional spectacular saves.

 

[rurikbird]

I must be labouring under the group delusion that he is shit then...

I don't get it really, there was a similar albeit considerably more angry debate over a winger we had a few years back also... Stats...

Can Ming stop good shots, yes he can on occasion.

Does Ming command his area well and bring confidence to the back?No.
Does Ming kick/distribute the ball well? No
Does he engage in absolute clangers more than you would hope for from your goalkeeper? Yes
Is he new in the side or inexperienced? No

I admire that Klopp is willing to work with all the players he has inherited and not in a rush to throw anybody under the press bus... Good stuff...

I will be fucking gobsmacked if Ming can improve his multiple and glaring weaknesses enough to ever genuinely warrant a place in out goal. He is simply one of the dodgiest keepers I've ever seen and easily the worst we've ever had over an extended period of time.

You just hate his face. Admit it.

 

[rurikbird]

BTW can anyone make a convincing case that goalkeepers' clean sheet or goals conceded per game stats are somehow less relevant that strikers' goal-scoring stats? I didn't give it much thought before and I'm not insisting on it, but on the face of it (oh, the face again) it should be equally relevant – surely goalkeepers share credit/blame with their defence just as much as strikers depend on their partners to create chances for them to finish. In Spain the Zamora trophy (best goals to games ratio for a GK) seems to be given equal weight to the Pichichi trophy for the top scorer.

 

[Silver Sean]

Behave yourself Sean. He broke into the Bolton team halfway through the season they were relegated, he probably played about 15 top flight matches for a team that got relegated. Youve probably seen him play about twice ya chancer.

😉

 

[Silver Sean]

He's not completely shit, obviously. I mean he's not Itandje or Arphexad or something, but he's clearly not in the top bracket. We need a keeper in the top bracket if we're to compete how we want to, just like we need those types of players all over the pitch.
We can only hope we grab another Reina-type.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Clearly?

Didn't Oncy just call you out on this?

 

[Woland]

I'm siding with @gkmacca on this. How many ace keepers have we bought who've become progressively worse? Can't be all their fault. I reckon that Achterberg takes them smoking spliffs behind the bogs and stuff.

 

[Judge Jules]

Mignolet's form a year ago was so poor that he was replaced by a player who just got released by Bradford after 3 games.

He is a decent shot stopper. But I think most premier league goalkeepers nowadays if you watch them over 3-4 games pull of a occasional spectacular saves.

That seriously underrates his strong points IMO. He's a very, very good shot-stopper indeed and, as Portly's said, has won us a fair few points that way. It worries me that he seems to have lost some of the progress he made later on last season but, if Klopp reckons he's worth working on, that'll do for me.

 

[Mystic]

 

[gkmacca]

I was very relieved to hear Klopp talk about how the outfield players need to learn when not to pass the ball back to Ming. We've all been going nuts over that for about four years and thank gawd Klopp's acting with a bit of common sense.

"We’ve got to help our goalkeeper and give him the ball in the right situations and not hope he’ll play the final pass for a goal or something!”

 

[Grjt2]

I'm not a fan.

He isn't as bad as some in this thread have made out, but this whole "fantastic shot-stopper" thing gets me going a bit too.... who the fuck isn't good at shot stopping, even in the mediocre teams... Howard? Krul? Butland? Adrian? Fabianski? Forster? Lloris?

"Good shot stopper" has got to be the best example in modern football of damning-with-faint-praise hasn't it? Its literally the minimum expectation for someone in the position. This isn't 19-fucking-52 "oh he's not so good at stopping shots, but fuck can he take a shoulder barge, whilst smoking a woodbine". It is, rightly, assumed that all top keepers can do it now, but those that have it as the only string to their bow have one-off hero days against big sides, and then disappear without trace.

Klopp can work with Ming, make him incrementally better, and give him a stay of execution for a couple of years..... before eventually and inevitably trading him in for better. Or he can cut to the chase and ditch him now. As i've said before, Ming will show up somewhere like West Ham, and have the occasional day when we 'll all think "hmmm, should we really have sold him?". Then we'll remember some of the shite he is dishing up right now, his bafflingly poor distribution and his weak-minded management of the defence, and know the answer

 

[manwithnoname]

I'm not a fan.

He isn't as bad as some in this thread have made out, but this whole "fantastic shot-stopper" thing gets me going a bit too.... who the fuck isn't good at shot stopping, even in the mediocre teams... Howard? Krul? Butland? Adrian? Fabianski? Forster? Lloris?

"Good shot stopper" has got to be the best example in modern football of damning-with-faint-praise hasn't it? Its literally the minimum expectation for someone in the position. This isn't 19-fucking-52 "oh he's not so good at stopping shots, but fuck can he take a shoulder barge, whilst smoking a woodbine". It is, rightly, assumed that all top keepers can do it now, but those that have it as the only string to their bow have one-off hero days against big sides, and then disappear without trace.

Klopp can work with Ming, make him incrementally better, and give him a stay of execution for a couple of years..... before eventually and inevitably trading him in for better. Or he can cut to the chase and ditch him now. As i've said before, Ming will show up somewhere like West Ham, and have the occasional day when we 'll all think "hmmm, should we really have sold him?". Then we'll remember some of the shite he is dishing up right now, his bafflingly poor distribution and his weak-minded management of the defence, and know the answer

I get your point about being good at "shot stopping" being the minimum requirement for anyone who plays in goal, and do agree that it is only part of what makes a great goalkeeper; handling, bravery, speed off the line, decision-making, dealing with crosses, good distribution with feet and hands etc are all important.

But while I'm not a fan and have wanted him replaced for ages, I do think that his agility and reaction speed to reach - and save - goal-bound efforts is actually notable and better than many keepers. Compare him to another "decent shot-stopper" who actually wasn't at all, Chris Kirkland.

 

[cloggypop]

Pepe was terrible at shot stopping when we replaced him.

 

[manwithnoname]

Pepe was terrible at shot stopping when we replaced him.

Yeah, "no saves" Reina. Horrible slump in form and/or ability. He was great for years, though. Kirkland never ever was.

 

[gkmacca]

For all the 'shot stopper' stuff being used as damning praise, I'd argue the 'he isn't commanding his area' stuff is similarly being used as, in part, deflective criticism of the defence, because it's too simplistic to think a keeper can simply control his area simply by having the right 'attitude' and shouting a lot. I'm not ignoring the fact that Ming DOES need to improve, but he needs to improve along with his defence as a unit.

A keeper can be decisive, vocal and commanding, but when he has defenders who mess about in front of him with tippy-tappy nonsense, make silly pass backs with opponents charging at him, and get caught out of position time and again, he sure as hell won't look as 'commanding' as he'd like. It's not COMPLETELY an individual issue. A keeper needs to focus and concentrate on the opponents, and if he has to shriek at his left back to get into position, shriek at his CBs to pick up the right players, etc etc, he's already being overly-distracted by his own teammates.

I've lost count of the times when Ming has been looking around at where his defenders should be when he should've been focussing on the attackers. Yes, that's a problem for him, but it's not the sole issue. He's doing it because he knows his defence is so unreliable.

A defence needs to trust a keeper to do his job, but a keeper needs to trust his defence to do its job. It's a reciprocal thing, a reciprocal problem.

Clemence was the most commanding keeper I've seen - he'd snarl at everyone to do what he wanted, he'd go berserk if anyone cocked up and, of course, he'd blame everyone else if he let in a goal. But he had a superb defence in front of him. When he went to Spurs, in his first season he looked a shadow of the keeper he was because he used up masses of energy and concentration trying to sort out a much poorer defence.

So I do agree Ming needs to improve a lot in several areas, but he'll do that, and look better, the quicker the back four improve, too. The mad faffing about at the back that blighted Brendan's era at the club would have shredded the confidence, and nerves, of most keepers, and we're still only gradually sorting that out.

 

[FoxForceFive]

We've all seen him win us points with his fantastic reflex saves. We've all seen his occasional indecisiveness when he has got hold of the ball. Which takes precedence in our evaluation of him as a keeper? It really isn't that simple.

That indecisiveness make the defence nervous though.

The shite disruption leads to more nervousness, & actually stifles our ability to attack quickly from the back, Reina for instance, made us many a goal using his distribution, & his accuracy kicking it at distance relieved pressure at the back very effectively too.

 

[Grjt2]

I'd agree (both gkmacca & FFF).

There is a bit of chicken and egg in this - which was shit first the defence or Ming? But as Jon highlights, his indecisiveness is endemic, and is compounded by his terrible distribution. Whilst the defence seems to be making progress under Klopp, Ming is still dropping clangers....

I think JK will stick with him, and Ming will ultimately get the chop backe end of next season or the next, after a protracted period of one step forward, two steps back. I'd rather just cut and run now.

 

[gkmacca]

Improved throwing and kicking - not just the technique but the judgement - are two of the things you'd expect to see as the tangible signs of the impact of a good specialist coach in this position. I've no idea what Achterberg gets up to as goalkeeping coach but whatever it is, it isn't showing up on the pitch, at least in a positive sense.

 

[Grjt2]

Anyone would think that his 250+ appearances for Tranmere Rovers dont bode well for a successful top-flight coaching career (winky face)

 

[ILD]

*Pointless story alert*
My boss met Achterberg a few years back on holidays in Florida. They got into conversation and about football and my boss said he was a local ref for under age games. Achterberg trumped him with being Liverpool's goal keeping coach.

 

[gkmacca]

He can't trump as much as Joe Corrigan did.

 

[localny]

MIGNOLET CONTRACT EXTENSION TALKS BEGIN
Top Camera Save Shot Stopper in the Premiership, Adored by Fans like Oncy, Admits Happiness at Prospect


Liverpool have opened talks to extend goalkeeper Simon Mignolet's contract beyond 2018, sources have told ESPN FC.
Manager Jurgen Klopp is keen to reward the performances of the Belgium international with an improved deal.
Klopp told a news conference on Tuesday that he regarded Mignolet as one of the "smartest" keepers he has ever worked with.
The manager moved quickly to dismiss reports linking him with Stoke's England international Jack Butland, and Germany under-21 goalkeeper Timo Horn, who plays in the Bundesliga for Cologne.

Mignolet, who earns around £60,000 a week, signed a five-year deal when he joined Liverpool from Sunderland for £9 million in 2013.
His performances have come under intense scrutiny at times during his two-and-a-half seasons on Merseyside to date, and he was dropped briefly last December by Brendan Rodgers, Klopp's predecessor.
Former Liverpool goalkeeper Bruce Grobbelaar, who has been among Mignolet's fiercest critics, claimed just last week that Klopp was looking to sign a replacement.
Grobbelaar told talkSPORT at the time: "I think he is looking at it. There are a couple of goalkeepers in the German league that he is looking at, so I can see that might be one of his first signings."
Klopp, though, said on Tuesday that he had no such plans, as he was happy to stick with Mignolet and backup Adam Bogdan as his two senior keepers.
The Liverpool manager said: "We are not looking for another goalkeeper. We have enough high-quality goalkeepers.
"I've worked with a lot of goalkeepers in the last few years, and Simon Mignolet is one of the smartest I ever had.
"He's young enough to develop and improve. He didn't have the easiest situation before I came here. There's been nothing to criticise since I came here. Absolutely nothing."

 

[Rafiagra]

Mignolet is awful when we give him the ball. Apart from that, he's pretty decent at keeping the ball out of the goal. However, he doesn't exactly inspire confidence or authority which doesn't help.

 

[Dave G]

I can't believe anyone is actually defending him. Just step back and have a think about a keeper in one of the top 3 leagues in the world, playing for one of the top 5 clubs in that league, HOLDING THE BALL for 21 seconds !! Just think about it! It's not like the opposition were gegenpressing the feck out of us and he had no one to distribute it too. Shot stopping is about 20% of being a good goal keeper. I would say the biggest part of good goal keeping, is not worrying the shit out of the defence in front of you every time the ball comes near you. Something he has NEVER been able to do in his 3 years at Anfield. If he hasn't learnt to do it by now, he isn't going to learn. simple as that.

 

[Judge Jules]

No, it really isn't. If a new, proven top class manager says there's hope for the guy still, I for one am not willing to claim I know better.

 

[localny]

No, it really isn't. If a new, proven top class manager says there's hope for the guy still, I for one am not willing to claim I know better.

What kind of an internet poster are you then, for Jaysis sakes. Never admit the manager knows more. C'mon now JJ