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Mascherano OR Lucas

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LeTallecWiz

LeTallecWiz

Doos
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I think it's rather obvious that one of our main issues with continuing with the 4-2-3-1 that worked so well last year is that we've lose the 'Alonso' of the formation, ie a player who can pass effectively.

Rafa continually sticks with the Lucas & Mascherano pairing, which to me is one of the reasons why the team fails to build many meaningful attacks from the centre of the park. Mascher is a fantastic DM, but he's not a great passer. Lucas is an ok DM and an ok passer. Fact is, they BOTH cannot be starting in the '2' part of this formation.

Now - I don't care who it is, but one has to drop to the bench. I'd obviously prefer Mascherano to start alongside Gerrard or Aqua but it's gotten to a point where we're so pathetic in the middle that I'd even be ok with lucas/Gerrard or lucas/Aqua just so we can have a capable passer next to a DM again.
 
What??

It's not even a valid question unless you're a RAWK superfan mong or Ryan

Lucarse is one of the worst players to ever pull on a shirt. He's a useless cunt and he makes me want to stop watching football.

It's been hilarious watching you, and so many others tentatively proffer support to this vacuous non-entity, hoping and praying that there was something there

There isn't. There never was. There never will be.

He's fucking shit, and -deep down- we all know it

I just seemed to know it first
 
You misread my post Brendan, so I will try again.

I don't rate Lucas as more than a 4 CM for us. But if it's between Lucas & Mascher in the middle, or Lucas/Aqua or Gerrard, I'd take the last one as at least then we have a capable passer next to a DM.

I'd obviously MUCH rater have Mascherano but I cannot stand seeing them together.

... Yes you hated him from day one.
 
I've long given up on Lucas. The only thing I can say us that he's not versatile enough to play in any other position than the one he played for gremio, which is box to box. He's been told to sit back and he's too shite to do it, and now his attacking play has suffered
 
This is a no-brainer LTW. Masher is no midfield maestro but he's excellent at his job. He becomes a lot more exposed as an 'all-rounder' when he has no-one alongside him who can offer any kind of penetrating forward pass. It should be Masher plus one of Gerrard or Aqua with the other playing ahead of the two. Obviously. Only Benitez can't see that.
 
I'm not going to defend Lucas as one of our best players, he is what he is, I don't think he's quite as bad as people make out, but this whole "Oh Masher gets exposed when he has no attacker alongside him", despite being true, really fucks me off.

Do people not think the same issue is having a detrimental effect on Lucas? He's there doing more or less the same job as Masher, with less robustness but probably keeping the ball slightly better. He's looked better alongside a complimentary midfielder, like Gerrard or Aquilani. Considering Masher cost three times the price of Lucas, I'd expect, as a full International and a widely regarded "World Class at what he does" type player, to be able to carry out one of the basic fundamental skills of a footballer (ie, being able to pass the ball a few yards).

If Mascherano is going to get a continual reprieve for not having a partner in midfield who compliments him, then why doesn't Lucas? Ideally Lucas would be back up for Mascherano, learning the trade from the same player, if Rafa is so intent on using him that way. Instead the lad has been thrown in at the deep end, into a foreign role and had shit after shit thrown at him, while players around him perform equally inconsistently.
 
The two simply do not work together effectively. Clearly Mascherano should be first choice over Lucas. Clearly Lucas frustrates the vast majority of fans. I do think a significant portion of Lucas' failings are down to Rafa. And also that a significant portion of the fans' antipathy towards Lucas is because Rafa picks him every game, which is not Lucas' fault. It really doesn't bother me having Lucas on the books at Liverpool but it fucking infuriates me seeing him and Mascherano starting together every game. IT DOESN'T BLOODY WELL WORK!
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38668.msg1043854#msg1043854 date=1264580369]Ideally Lucas would be back up for Mascherano, learning the trade from the same player, if Rafa is so intent on using him that way. Instead the lad has been thrown in at the deep end, into a foreign role and had shit after shit thrown at him, while players around him perform equally inconsistently.
[/quote]

Lucas should not and should never have been trained in Mascherano's role. When he was purchased, he was described (laughably and regrettably in hindsight) as being more Gerrard-like if anything. He's been pushed into a role he isn't very good at to the detriment of the skills that we allegedly purchased him for. Depressingly laughable.

And many made the same complaints regarding the handling of Alonso as well. However, Alonso is a far more capable player who, despite suffering a couple subpar seasons by his own high standards, managed to be a key component of one of our closest title runs in recent memory.

Now, since Aquilani isn't even as good a defensive midfielder as Lucas, he's rotting on the bench. There's a pattern to be noticed here.
 
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
 
Are we now resigned to a midfield duo of "Mashucas" (get's coat)? Bad state of affairs. Aqualani was meant to be our messiah and saviour to break up Masher and Lucas, but he can't get a game. His put in his best performance for us so far against Spurs, do we build on it? Do we fuck, he must be confused as fuck sitting on the bench wondering why he can't get a game or a run out to freshen things up. Even put Gerrard back in there, just for the love of god do something as it is stale and unproductive.

Last season the very thought of Lucas and Masher together as a pairing made our eye's bleed, it still does!
 
I said it at the start of the season... Lucas OR Mascherano. We will rarely beat a team who shut up shop with both of them playing.
 
Lucas and Mascherano are 1st and 2nd respectively at the "best passers in the league" table and are both in the tackling top 5 as well so lunatics like Tomkins can point at those stats and say we have a "great midfield".
I could live with Lucas starting the odd game in Mascherano's place when he gets a rest as Lucas can probably do the job in his role against shit teams but that's it.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]

Agreed, my friend. Perhaps the problem has been that, decent fella that you are, you're trying to be even-handed between the two players named in the thread title, when actually they don't deserve it. Masher's attacking play is average even on a good day but what he DOES do well, i.e.sweep up in front of the back four, he does tremendously well. Lucas by contrast does absolutely nothing to that standard. The fact that his passing is - SOMETIMES - better than Masher's is nowhere near enough to justify his selection. We should have been playing Gerrard alongside Masher, and Yossi/Purple ahead of them in the "hole", all season.
 
[quote author=Vanbasten84 link=topic=38668.msg1043887#msg1043887 date=1264586664]
can this thread be moved to the bad taste joke thread please
[/quote]

Haha.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38668.msg1043854#msg1043854 date=1264580369]
I'm not going to defend Lucas as one of our best players, he is what he is, I don't think he's quite as bad as people make out, but this whole "Oh Masher gets exposed when he has no attacker alongside him", despite being true, really fucks me off.

Do people not think the same issue is having a detrimental effect on Lucas? He's there doing more or less the same job as Masher, with less robustness but probably keeping the ball slightly better. He's looked better alongside a complimentary midfielder, like Gerrard or Aquilani. Considering Masher cost three times the price of Lucas, I'd expect, as a full International and a widely regarded "World Class at what he does" type player, to be able to carry out one of the basic fundamental skills of a footballer (ie, being able to pass the ball a few yards).

If Mascherano is going to get a continual reprieve for not having a partner in midfield who compliments him, then why doesn't Lucas? Ideally Lucas would be back up for Mascherano, learning the trade from the same player, if Rafa is so intent on using him that way. Instead the lad has been thrown in at the deep end, into a foreign role and had shit after shit thrown at him, while players around him perform equally inconsistently.
[/quote]

The point is, which I meant to put in my first post, that Mascherano is excellent at what he does, while Lucas is excellent at nothing. Therefore, if you're going to use specialists, it makes sense to use ones who are masters of their trade, rather than ones who are simply 'ok' at a lot of things. Now, I don't go along with the idea that Lucas is useless at everything. In fact, I agree that he could probably 'do a job' alongside better players. But the same can be said for average footballers the world over.

In Masher, we have one of the best defensive midfielders in the world. When that's all he's asked to do, he's brilliant at it. Take away the burden of having to try and make penetrating forward passes and he's a vital cog in a well-oiled machine. Lucas, on the other hand, while having one decent game in every ten, is incredibly limited, and doesn't stand out in any area. He's a utility player at best. Therefore, when we have both Gerrard and Aqualani available, who are both capable of providing the forward momentum that we need, the question of who should play out of Lucas and Mascherano, is pretty much redundant.

It's Mascherano.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38668.msg1043854#msg1043854 date=1264580369]
I'm not going to defend Lucas as one of our best players, he is what he is, I don't think he's quite as bad as people make out, but this whole "Oh Masher gets exposed when he has no attacker alongside him", despite being true, really fucks me off.

Do people not think the same issue is having a detrimental effect on Lucas? He's there doing more or less the same job as Masher, with less robustness but probably keeping the ball slightly better. He's looked better alongside a complimentary midfielder, like Gerrard or Aquilani. Considering Masher cost three times the price of Lucas, I'd expect, as a full International and a widely regarded "World Class at what he does" type player, to be able to carry out one of the basic fundamental skills of a footballer (ie, being able to pass the ball a few yards).

If Mascherano is going to get a continual reprieve for not having a partner in midfield who compliments him, then why doesn't Lucas? Ideally Lucas would be back up for Mascherano, learning the trade from the same player, if Rafa is so intent on using him that way. Instead the lad has been thrown in at the deep end, into a foreign role and had shit after shit thrown at him, while players around him perform equally inconsistently.
[/quote]

^^^^^^^^
what he said
 
Macher in invaluable against the big boys, where you will need to do a fair bit of defending and snap at ankles. Against shite like last night, we should be going for it more. Gerrard and Purple in CM, playing an offensive 4-4-2. Neither are an asset when we need to be dominating a game.
 
Mascher AND Lucas playing together is the main reason we are so awful this season.
Lucas might well be our worst midfielder in the last decade but I cant blame him.

Picking him after his abysmal performance vs Spurs and letting Aqua who was very decent in that same match on the bench was suicidal.
Its not the Yanks, not Parry, not Purslow, not Lee, not Pelegrino.
Its the one who got a contract with full control of the technical side.
I hate Rafa's football philosophy.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38668.msg1043932#msg1043932 date=1264592554]
Mascher AND Lucas playing together is the main reason we are so awful this season.
Lucas might well be our worst midfielder in the last decade but I cant blame him.

Picking him after his abysmal performance vs Spurs and letting Aqua who was very decent in that same match on the bench was suicidal.
Its not the Yanks, not Parry, not Purslow, not Lee, not Pelegrino.
Its the one who got a contract with full control of the technical side.
I hate Rafa's football philosophy.
[/quote]

Fuck me, you know it's time for Rafa to go when I catch myself agreeing with one of Le Chacal's posts...
 
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=38668.msg1044014#msg1044014 date=1264603437]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38668.msg1043932#msg1043932 date=1264592554]
Mascher AND Lucas playing together is the main reason we are so awful this season.
Lucas might well be our worst midfielder in the last decade but I cant blame him.

Picking him after his abysmal performance vs Spurs and letting Aqua who was very decent in that same match on the bench was suicidal.
Its not the Yanks, not Parry, not Purslow, not Lee, not Pelegrino.
Its the one who got a contract with full control of the technical side.
I hate Rafa's football philosophy.
[/quote]

Fuck me, you know it's time for Rafa to go when I catch myself agreeing with one of Le Chacal's posts...
[/quote]

Hahahaha.

I found myself agreeing with MOMO the other day.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043846#msg1043846 date=1264579104]
You misread my post Brendan, so I will try again.

I don't rate Lucas as more than a 4 CM for us. But if it's between Lucas & Mascher in the middle, or Lucas/Aqua or Gerrard, I'd take the last one as at least then we have a capable passer next to a DM.

I'd obviously MUCH rater have Mascherano but I cannot stand seeing them together.

... Yes you hated him from day one.
[/quote]

He didn't mis read the post LTW; you gave him an opening regarding Lucas. When that happens for Brendan nothing else actually registers; doesn't matter which direction the opening is facing - he's going to go straight through it.


As for the question, we had this argument/discussion a couple of months ago.

Despite Lucas being distinctly average in the last two games my thinking on it hasn't changed.


  • [li]If the opposition carries genuine threat and are intent on going at us then Mascher is a must. We should have either Aqua or Gerrard in there to partner him.[/li]
    [li]If the opposition doesn't carry a genuine threat then I think it's a choice of two which would be down to the managers preference. My preference would be for Aqua and Gerrard to be in there and Yossi in the hole. If one of them (probably Aqua) needs a rest then Lucas should come in for that position.[/li]


Playing Mascher in a game like Wolves is a waste of a position IMO. He's the best or one of the best DM's in the world but playing him against an exceptionally average team like Wolves is akin to putting an elevator in an out-house; it doesn't belong.
 
One of the reasons Lucas plays is because Rafa doesn't trust Aquilani or Gerrard to play the centre midfield role. I think he views them both as being not disciplined enough.

Plus, Lucas is better at passing and breaking up the oppositions play than just about all of you give him credit for.

Still, having him and Mascherano doing that role against the likes of Wolves just isn't required, I agree.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044432#msg1044432 date=1264639872]
One of the reasons Lucas plays is because Rafa doesn't trust Aquilani or Gerrard to play the centre midfield role. I think he views them both as being not disciplined enough. [/quote]

If this is the case, why buy Aquilani? To be a 20 M backup to Gerrard in the hole? A genuine question, Ryan.
 
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38668.msg1044438#msg1044438 date=1264640828]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044432#msg1044432 date=1264639872]
One of the reasons Lucas plays is because Rafa doesn't trust Aquilani or Gerrard to play the centre midfield role. I think he views them both as being not disciplined enough. [/quote]

If this is the case, why buy Aquilani? To be a 20 M backup to Gerrard in the hole? A genuine question, Ryan.
[/quote]

Surely Aqua was bought as a replacement for Xabi - a position it has become clear he is patently unsuited for.
 
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38668.msg1044438#msg1044438 date=1264640828]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044432#msg1044432 date=1264639872]
One of the reasons Lucas plays is because Rafa doesn't trust Aquilani or Gerrard to play the centre midfield role. I think he views them both as being not disciplined enough. [/quote]

If this is the case, why buy Aquilani? To be a 20 M backup to Gerrard in the hole? A genuine question, Ryan.
[/quote]

He may well mould into that sort of player than can be relied upon in midfield overtime, hence Rafa buying him, but he's not ready yet.

He offers absolutely nothing for a defensive point of view, and that's being kind to him. So I guess Rafa doesn't wanna take that risk of sticking him in the centre of a flat 4-4-2. His recent quotes about 'choosing between Gerrard and Aqui for the 'hole' role' sorta back that up.

Where possible - he just won't play him as part of a midfield two, for quite some time.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044441#msg1044441 date=1264641231]He may well mould into that sort of player than can be relied upon in midfield overtime, hence Rafa buying him, but he's not ready yet.

He offers absolutely nothing for a defensive point of view, and that's being kind to him. So I guess Rafa doesn't wanna take that risk of sticking him in the centre of a flat 4-4-2. His recent quotes about 'choosing between Gerrard and Aqui for the 'hole' role' sorta back that up.

Where possible - he just won't play him as part of a midfield two, for quite some time.
[/quote]

If that's how Rafa sees it, he dug his own grave with the past summer's transfer window. It is incomprehensible to think that the summer's major purchase, intended to replace one of the team's most important players, was viewed as a longterm work-in-progress. I can accept that the injury recovery took longer than Rafa accepted but to think that Rafa essentially bought Aquilani as a midfield Babel is asking too much.

Again, not trying to be sarcastic or more negative than deserved. I'm open to hearing ideas.
 
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38668.msg1044442#msg1044442 date=1264641575]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044441#msg1044441 date=1264641231]He may well mould into that sort of player than can be relied upon in midfield overtime, hence Rafa buying him, but he's not ready yet.

He offers absolutely nothing for a defensive point of view, and that's being kind to him. So I guess Rafa doesn't wanna take that risk of sticking him in the centre of a flat 4-4-2. His recent quotes about 'choosing between Gerrard and Aqui for the 'hole' role' sorta back that up.

Where possible - he just won't play him as part of a midfield two, for quite some time.
[/quote]

If that's how Rafa sees it, he dug his own grave with the past summer's transfer window. It is incomprehensible to think that the summer's major purchase, intended to replace one of the team's most important players, was viewed as a longterm work-in-progress. I can accept that the injury recovery took longer than Rafa accepted but to think that Rafa essentially bought Aquilani as a midfield Babel is asking too much.

Again, not trying to be sarcastic or more negative than deserved. I'm open to hearing ideas.
[/quote]

I'm guessing of course, but I suspect Rafa probably felt he could rely on Aquilani a touch more.

In the few games I've seen him play in that centre-mid role he's looks more of a reliability, than a creative force.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1044446#msg1044446 date=1264642097]I'm guessing of course, but I suspect Rafa probably felt he could rely on Aquilani a touch more.

In the few games I've seen him play in that centre-mid role he's looks more of a reliability, than a creative force.
[/quote]

And of course that's the obvious answer. Just leaves questions regarding his evaluation abilities and judgement. (And I'm not downplaying the varied good purchases he has made during his tenure either.) In a critical transfer window he has dropped the ball severely and may pay the price for it. In previous seasons we may have gotten away with errors like this but the competition from the teams typically stationed a tier below us has intensified.
 
I repeat, only one can play next to each other. We're killing our chances of 4th with every game when we start with two DMs who don't pass well at all.
 
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