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Mascherano OR Lucas

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[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1057930#msg1057930 date=1266843597]
Alonso's passing no more incisive than Lucarse?

Fuck me, that is simply outrageously fucking stupid
[/quote]
The fact that you've posted more than 28000 times, which is like sending one post a day for over 65 years, says more about your grasp on reality than any words from me ever could
 
And anyone who thinks that Masher and Lucas is a good CM partnership has shit for brains and a fair amount in their eyes, too
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057937#msg1057937 date=1266843982]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38668.msg1057934#msg1057934 date=1266843877]
Lucas is our worst starting midfielder in the last decade.
On french TV they were ridiculing him and the fact he was named brazilian footballer of the year.
It was painful to hear.
Playing him AND Mascherano is the main reason we're 7th in the league.
[/quote]

its not the MAIN reason, I don't even think its top 3.
[/quote]
It is.
It destroyed the balance of our team.
To restore this balance you just need to play Gerrard in the middle.
Only a clueless manager cant see that unfortunately.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057933#msg1057933 date=1266843852]
Undermining Alonso's contribution to the team is as ignorant as blaming all of our woes on Lucas.

And if our main problem is our lack of quality in wide areas, how is it that we're doing so badly despite having exactly the same players there as we did last season?
[/quote]
If simply stating Alonso's contribution in factual terms is "undermining" him, then I don't know what the word means.

I was a big fan of his, but his absence is seen as a convenient excuse for all our ills, added to a childish campaign against another player in the same role.

Lack of quality in wide areas is again a statement of fact as far as this season goes. I know it's a very popular hobby on here but, if you look closely, you'll see I wasn't slagging off individuals. We've had people like Riera, Aurelio and Benayoun, all of whom have suffered extensive injuries this season, so we've had no continuity on the left side, contributing to the poor quality of delivery and incisiveness from that side. In fairness, Insua has come on well and has made quite a few decent crosses (whisper it, but he has more assists already this season - 4 - than Alonso had all last season).

On the right we've mainly had Kuyt and, hard worker though he is, he's no winger. In the continuing absence of Johnson our attacking play down the right has also suffered. Carragher offers nothing in his place in an attacking sense

Therefore we have had a lack of quality in wide areas. When everyone's back I expect a big difference.

In the meantime let's ignore all that and slag off Lucas
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057928#msg1057928 date=1266843561]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057917#msg1057917 date=1266842677]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057899#msg1057899 date=1266839999]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this
Click to expand...

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.
[/quote]

I've seen the likes of Zidane and Gerrard misplace easy passes, it's easily done. You offer no real point. Masher is a top class defensive midfielder. He's captain of a major footballing nation, the only one in the team who is. Barcelona, regarded as the best football team in the world and probably over the last 10 years, are clamouring for him.

I can only conclude with that point that you've never played the game.
[/quote]

so being a defensive midfielder gives masher a 'pass' in regards to creativity? okay, glad we got that cleared up. also, I love the 'you've never played the game' chestnut, as if that had anything whatsoever to do with masher's continual profligacy with the ball.
[/quote]

Actually being a defensive midfielder does give you a 'pass in regards to creativity' in the same way it does Reina and the back four. And every player, regardless of ability misplaces passes, that's why you don't often see 100% success rate in passing, even from defenders.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057932#msg1057932 date=1266843808]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.

Alonso only played in something like 27 league games last year too, so it's not like we couldn't play without him (Man U away is the classic example, when Lucas was the best midfielder on view by a mile).

So I just don't see how playing two defensive midfielders this season is hurting the team when we had two defensive midfielders doing the same last season and. as match stats show, neither was exactly bombing forward and getting or making goals

Liverpool's main problem has been a lack of quality in wide areas all season, allied with Gerrard's total slump in form (only 6 goals, two of which were penalties), so we've been toothless in the attacking 3 midfield positions, a situation made worse by the lengthy injury to Torres.

That's what's been "harming the team", not what the two DMs have been doing - in fact they've both done a fabulous job in their positions

But let's ignore all that and get back on track and slag off Lucas
[/quote]

Mate, I don't know who you are and don't recall seeing any of our posts before but you should post more if that's an indication of your opinions, its like a breath of fresh air.

I agree with every word.
[/quote]
I don't come on here very often, as it's like a parallel universe in many ways, but every now and again I try to chuck in a sane comment to balance things out! I fear it's going to be an uphill struggle though. Any help will be appreciated!
 
Hurray! We need more boring, smug, superfan, armchair divs

Especially ones that 'rarely post' and are deffo not old posters with different usernames
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1057942#msg1057942 date=1266844505]
I've always given a massive fuck about what random knobheads think about stuff
[/quote]

That's because your an annoying, insecure little person who derives some sort of ego boost from being a 'prominent' poster in a small time forum that few people know anything about.

Your arrogance knows no bounds to refer to another poster in that way as if you're somehow better than them. Learn to agree to disagree and stop behaving like a glue-sniffing teenager.
 
Brendan, Kopking can you wind it in a bit please.

Oh, and we're not small-time, we're "bijou" 🙂
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057945#msg1057945 date=1266844919]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057928#msg1057928 date=1266843561]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057917#msg1057917 date=1266842677]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057899#msg1057899 date=1266839999]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this
Click to expand...

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.
[/quote]

I've seen the likes of Zidane and Gerrard misplace easy passes, it's easily done. You offer no real point. Masher is a top class defensive midfielder. He's captain of a major footballing nation, the only one in the team who is. Barcelona, regarded as the best football team in the world and probably over the last 10 years, are clamouring for him.

I can only conclude with that point that you've never played the game.
[/quote]

so being a defensive midfielder gives masher a 'pass' in regards to creativity? okay, glad we got that cleared up. also, I love the 'you've never played the game' chestnut, as if that had anything whatsoever to do with masher's continual profligacy with the ball.
[/quote]

Actually being a defensive midfielder does give you a 'pass in regards to creativity' in the same way it does Reina and the back four. And every player, regardless of ability misplaces passes, that's why you don't often see 100% success rate in passing, even from defenders.
[/quote]

There are a few things you need to realise about neil. One - he's a massive Alonso groupie. Two - he thinks he has to slag Masher off at every opportunity, in order to big up Alonso by contrast. Three - nothing as inconvenient as evidence or argument is going to move him from his chosen position on this or any other issue. Just so you know.
 
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057946#msg1057946 date=1266845057]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057932#msg1057932 date=1266843808]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.

Alonso only played in something like 27 league games last year too, so it's not like we couldn't play without him (Man U away is the classic example, when Lucas was the best midfielder on view by a mile).

So I just don't see how playing two defensive midfielders this season is hurting the team when we had two defensive midfielders doing the same last season and. as match stats show, neither was exactly bombing forward and getting or making goals

Liverpool's main problem has been a lack of quality in wide areas all season, allied with Gerrard's total slump in form (only 6 goals, two of which were penalties), so we've been toothless in the attacking 3 midfield positions, a situation made worse by the lengthy injury to Torres.

That's what's been "harming the team", not what the two DMs have been doing - in fact they've both done a fabulous job in their positions

But let's ignore all that and get back on track and slag off Lucas
[/quote]

Mate, I don't know who you are and don't recall seeing any of our posts before but you should post more if that's an indication of your opinions, its like a breath of fresh air.

I agree with every word.
[/quote]
I don't come on here very often, as it's like a parallel universe in many ways, but every now and again I try to chuck in a sane comment to balance things out! I fear it's going to be an uphill struggle though. Any help will be appreciated!

[/quote]

Just for clarification.
You feel that we are no worse off with Lucas playing in the role that Alonso left?

Lucas is really a very average player, who looks almost acceptable, and not out of place in our current team that is rammed with very average players, hence the reason why some almost sensible people, yourself fof instance are becoming confused with his ability.

I must take you to task on one point before that though, you suggested that Alonso was no more than a defensive midfield player. Are you suggesting that is what he actually is , or the position he was made to play by Benitez?

I have mixed feelings over Xabi, on one hand he really did have a couple of indifferent seasons before last year, on the other hand he had a magnificent season last year, and that is reflected in his valuations over that period.
Rafa was happy to off-load Xabi for £15m when he was after Barry, and ended up holding out for £30m when he wasn't, and Xabi had put in a great year.
In the formation with Gerrard playing behind Torres that was used to some success last year, it was Xabi's role to feed Gerrard, and not particularly Torres, hence, I would suggest, the lack of actual assists.



regards
 
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
 
This is really very simple;

Anyone who denounces Alonso by way of his '3 assists' clearly knows nothing about football and should be treated as such.

He's a world class player who we're missing terribly, obv.
 
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

I barred myself from a local pub when he turned Liverpool over once cos one guy wanted to watch the horse racing. Whilst he turned it over, Lucas scored against Newcastle. Thus he robbed me of my one chance to see Lucas score a league goal.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38668.msg1057955#msg1057955 date=1266846705]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057945#msg1057945 date=1266844919]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057928#msg1057928 date=1266843561]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057917#msg1057917 date=1266842677]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057899#msg1057899 date=1266839999]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this
Click to expand...

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.
[/quote]

I've seen the likes of Zidane and Gerrard misplace easy passes, it's easily done. You offer no real point. Masher is a top class defensive midfielder. He's captain of a major footballing nation, the only one in the team who is. Barcelona, regarded as the best football team in the world and probably over the last 10 years, are clamouring for him.

I can only conclude with that point that you've never played the game.
[/quote]

so being a defensive midfielder gives masher a 'pass' in regards to creativity? okay, glad we got that cleared up. also, I love the 'you've never played the game' chestnut, as if that had anything whatsoever to do with masher's continual profligacy with the ball.
[/quote]

Actually being a defensive midfielder does give you a 'pass in regards to creativity' in the same way it does Reina and the back four. And every player, regardless of ability misplaces passes, that's why you don't often see 100% success rate in passing, even from defenders.
[/quote]

There are a few things you need to realise about neil. One - he's a massive Alonso groupie. Two - he thinks he has to slag Masher off at every opportunity, in order to big up Alonso by contrast. Three - nothing as inconvenient as evidence or argument is going to move him from his chosen position on this or any other issue. Just so you know.
[/quote]

when alonso was in a slump (which let's face it lasted 2 years) I was the first to say something. in regards to masher I think he is a good player albeit seriously overrated and I'm not ashamed to it admit it I thought and think alonso was a class apart from masher and found it laughable when people were lauding masher as the 'key' to our central midfield. ha ha top class.
 
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him, went many years in succession without a league goal. Michael Essien can hardly be described as prolific in front of goal. I can name example after example.
 
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057944#msg1057944 date=1266844738]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057933#msg1057933 date=1266843852]
Undermining Alonso's contribution to the team is as ignorant as blaming all of our woes on Lucas.

And if our main problem is our lack of quality in wide areas, how is it that we're doing so badly despite having exactly the same players there as we did last season?
[/quote]
If simply stating Alonso's contribution in factual terms is "undermining" him, then I don't know what the word means.

I was a big fan of his, but his absence is seen as a convenient excuse for all our ills, added to a childish campaign against another player in the same role.

Lack of quality in wide areas is again a statement of fact as far as this season goes. I know it's a very popular hobby on here but, if you look closely, you'll see I wasn't slagging off individuals. We've had people like Riera, Aurelio and Benayoun, all of whom have suffered extensive injuries this season, so we've had no continuity on the left side, contributing to the poor quality of delivery and incisiveness from that side. In fairness, Insua has come on well and has made quite a few decent crosses (whisper it, but he has more assists already this season - 4 - than Alonso had all last season).

On the right we've mainly had Kuyt and, hard worker though he is, he's no winger. In the continuing absence of Johnson our attacking play down the right has also suffered. Carragher offers nothing in his place in an attacking sense

Therefore we have had a lack of quality in wide areas. When everyone's back I expect a big difference.

In the meantime let's ignore all that and slag off Lucas
[/quote]

While quoting assist stats may be factual, using them as the sole basis of someone's contribution to a team is folly, particularly when that person plays a deep-lying midfield role. There is usually more than one pass involved in setting up a goal, the most incisive of which is not always the final one. But don't take my word for it - he transferred to Madrid for £30m in the summer. He was obviously doing something right.

As for your point about Insua having more assists - that's perfectly understandable given that he overlaps and supplies from much further up the pitch. What's your point exactly? That Insua contributes more to the team than Alonso did? Because that would obviously be laughable. While he has improved recently, he was horrific for much of the first half of the season and still looks defensively suspect.

And with regards to quality in wide areas - well, I'd have to agree. However, that isn't just true of this season. Nobody made the left wing position their own last season either. Riera had a moderate opening season, but was never an automatic starter. The simple fact is, that even when everyone is fit, nobody is good enough to hold down that spot which is precisely why Benitez rotates it so frequently. Admittedly, we've been hurt by injuries this season and it hasn't helped, but your list of candidates for that position only serves to highlight my point. Benayoun is ineffectual from the left and Aurelio, while being solid in possession, is really a left back, not a left midfielder. As for the right side, Kuyt has been a mainstay in the side (just as he was last season) and you can hardly use Johnson as a means of justifying our decline because he only arrived in the summer.

The undeniable truth is that we have lacked genuine quality from wide areas for years now. The difference last year is that we had a strong spine of top players on top of their games. We don't have that this season.

I don't agree with the disproportionate amount of blame being placed on Lucas either but it seems that in an attempt to provide balance, you're coming across just as ignorant as the people you take issue with.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057966#msg1057966 date=1266847170]
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him,
[/quote]

'the claude makelele position'
 
Goals aren't the issue.

It's the lack of creativity and incisive passing required to open teams up.

We've got others in the squad to put the goals away.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057966#msg1057966 date=1266847170]
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him, went many years in succession without a league goal. Michael Essien can hardly be described as prolific in front of goal. I can name example after example.
[/quote]

How many examples can you come up with, where there are two centre midfielders in the same team who dont score goals.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057966#msg1057966 date=1266847170]
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him, went many years in succession without a league goal. Michael Essien can hardly be described as prolific in front of goal. I can name example after example.
[/quote]

Yes ok, so we can get away with a Makalele type.

We have two centre mids who dont score goals though.

Never mind.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=38668.msg1057971#msg1057971 date=1266847357]
The first ever defensive midfielder, after football had been played for about 140 years
[/quote]

The games changed now, did you know?
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38668.msg1057972#msg1057972 date=1266847371]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057966#msg1057966 date=1266847170]
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him, went many years in succession without a league goal. Michael Essien can hardly be described as prolific in front of goal. I can name example after example.
[/quote]

How many examples can you come up with, where there are two centre midfielders in the same team who dont score goals.
[/quote]

the truth is two holding midfielders should give licence for the fullbacks and wide midfielders to push up safe in the knowledge they'll be covered if caught out of position but this isn't the case.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38668.msg1057970#msg1057970 date=1266847342]
Goals aren't the issue.

It's the lack of creativity and incisive passing required to open teams up.

We've got others in the squad to put the goals away.
[/quote]

Who?

Torres, Kuyt, Gerrard, Bennayoun.

Do any of our Centre halves ever score? Vidic scored a load for Utd 2 seasons ago. Terry has scored regularly in seasons gone by. So has Gallas, etc.

Without the 4 above players, we dont have a goal in the team.

That needs addressing IMO.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38668.msg1057957#msg1057957 date=1266846876]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057946#msg1057946 date=1266845057]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057932#msg1057932 date=1266843808]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.

Alonso only played in something like 27 league games last year too, so it's not like we couldn't play without him (Man U away is the classic example, when Lucas was the best midfielder on view by a mile).

So I just don't see how playing two defensive midfielders this season is hurting the team when we had two defensive midfielders doing the same last season and. as match stats show, neither was exactly bombing forward and getting or making goals

Liverpool's main problem has been a lack of quality in wide areas all season, allied with Gerrard's total slump in form (only 6 goals, two of which were penalties), so we've been toothless in the attacking 3 midfield positions, a situation made worse by the lengthy injury to Torres.

That's what's been "harming the team", not what the two DMs have been doing - in fact they've both done a fabulous job in their positions

But let's ignore all that and get back on track and slag off Lucas
[/quote]

Mate, I don't know who you are and don't recall seeing any of our posts before but you should post more if that's an indication of your opinions, its like a breath of fresh air.

I agree with every word.
[/quote]
I don't come on here very often, as it's like a parallel universe in many ways, but every now and again I try to chuck in a sane comment to balance things out! I fear it's going to be an uphill struggle though. Any help will be appreciated!

[/quote]

Just for clarification.
You feel that we are no worse off with Lucas playing in the role that Alonso left?

Lucas is really a very average player, who looks almost acceptable, and not out of place in our current team that is rammed with very average players, hence the reason why some almost sensible people, yourself fof instance are becoming confused with his ability.

I must take you to task on one point before that though, you suggested that Alonso was no more than a defensive midfield player. Are you suggesting that is what he actually is , or the position he was made to play by Benitez?

I have mixed feelings over Xabi, on one hand he really did have a couple of indifferent seasons before last year, on the other hand he had a magnificent season last year, and that is reflected in his valuations over that period.
Rafa was happy to off-load Xabi for £15m when he was after Barry, and ended up holding out for £30m when he wasn't, and Xabi had put in a great year.
In the formation with Gerrard playing behind Torres that was used to some success last year, it was Xabi's role to feed Gerrard, and not particularly Torres, hence, I would suggest, the lack of actual assists.



regards
[/quote]

I don't always agree with you,but you always be counted on to make make valid, reasoned arguments. I'm not sure if you are referring to me or Carshaltonian, I presume its the latter. Xabi Alonso is and was a top class player and any team would miss him if he was not there.

To blame Lucas for the teams woes which if not you, then many others in here have, is ridiculous. I'd sooner blame Gerrard than Lucas, if we're going to blame anyone. Lucas's defined role is midfielder, Gerrard's is 'matchwinner' on £120k per week. He hasn't won many matches for us lately has he?

I agree that Lucas has been spectacularly unspectacular but he is nowhere near our worst player this season.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38668.msg1057981#msg1057981 date=1266847660]
Why not play another defensive midfielder or two, so our centre backs and keeper can attack too...
[/quote]

ha ha. the point stands though, it was a stark contrast how many bodies man city were commiting to the attack compared to ourselves even though we had two out and out holding midfielders.
 
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