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Mascherano OR Lucas

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[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058345#msg1058345 date=1266880517]
The problem isn't solely down to the lack of attacking inclination by the CM pairing. It's because we've got too many average players on the wings, in central midfield and attack. If you haven't got the skill to make space then you need some pace at least. Half of our team have neither.


[/quote]

Is correct Sheik.
 
What we need is Aurelio at left back and Johnson at rightback who can provide support and get ahead of the wide midfielders.

Insua doesnt have the confidence and Carragher doenst have the legs.

Insua did it on Thurs and we scored. However, that was against some crap side. He obviously didnt dare (or was under instruction not to) on Sunday.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058350#msg1058350 date=1266880845]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058346#msg1058346 date=1266880609]
Ryan, our CM partnership have not got a league goal BETWEEN them all season long. No one is asking them to carry the team through or win games on their own but it is right to expect more from that dept. I think the assist count is ridiculously low too.
[/quote]

How many league goals did we get out of Alonso and Mascherano last season?

You're missing the point by an absolute mile Stu.
[/quote]

I don't think he is Ryan. You can still open up games without having assists and goals to your name.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058340#msg1058340 date=1266880253]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058336#msg1058336 date=1266880044]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058323#msg1058323 date=1266879206]
This thread is just whopping evidence of this Forum's need for a scapegoat. Why, after Sunday's game are we fcousing on two central midfielders, and specifically the pairing of them? Every fucking ill or fault this year is seemingly linked back to Lucas in some way. Zero shots on goal, two wingers who provided zero, and the narrowest attacks in living history - And the forum's on top of Lucas again. 6 degrees of seperation.

Mascherano and Lucas got the better of De Jong and Barry on Sunday. City's midfield is an experienced and good one, no doubt about it, but we were the team on top, and the team more in control (a phrase loved by many on here). Mascherano was outstanding, absolutely outstanding (you could nitpick about free-kicks and bookings but you take the rough with the smooth if he's going to play like that). Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

If they can do and win their battle and job, why are we asking them to compensate for others? If Maxi and Babel aren't creative enough to engineer fucking one chance or shot, then why is the onus falling on our midfield pairing. Sunday's MOTM? Zabaleta. Made an absolute cunt out of Ryan Babel (who's "pacy" don't forget). Kuyt's contribution? Minimal. Guilty of dropping too deep. Gerrard? Again crowded out of it. Maxi - nothing. Substitutions? Not much more. People are banging on about Mascherano's passing, and Lucas's through balls. Who the fuck is there to pass it to? I pointed out in another thread that Babel was in possession of the ball 12 times in 70 minutes. 12 fucking times. That is diabolical. No offence to Carra, but why give it to him if all he's going to do is shunt it straight back to you. Maxi, whilst capable of receiving and keeping it, just isn't going to hurt people. Thus Gerrard invariably picks it up, and gets crowded out. We need to get fucking braindead players like Babel out of the team, and replace them with footballers who can find time and space. Next time City are on the TV, watch how Tevez finds space and the ball. He's brilliant at it. That's what we need. If there's fuck all to pass it to, and fuck all resulting in them getting the ball no wonder the two playing the passes look insipid.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Gerrard to influence. He needs better players around him. Too much emphasis is being placed on a midfield pairing that won their battle on Sunday. Too little though is being asked of our ability to create chances in the final third - this is the responsibility of players in attacking positions who's job it is to do that. We need better players in attacking positions, and we need to get Torres, Benayoun and Johnson back fit. We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.
[/quote]

I dont think everyone needs a scapegoat nor are our two CM's the sole reason for our lack of creativity but it would help if either of them offered some level of attacking threat.
[/quote]

Why are we asking our central midfielders to offer an attacking threat, when we have attackers who don't even offer a fucking attacking threat?
[/quote]

Our wide players for the most part of this season have been the same ones we had last year and whilst Torres has been absent more often he missed a fair chunk of last season too.

The team looks unbalanced and devoid of attacking ideas. All the great Liverpool sides had midfielders who could both tackle and see a pass.
 
[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=38668.msg1058354#msg1058354 date=1266880895]
What we need is Aurelio at left back and Johnson at rightback who can provide support and get ahead of the wide midfielders.

Insua doesnt have the confidence and Carragher doenst have the legs.

Insua did it on Thurs and we scored. However, that was against some crap side. He obviously didnt dare (or was under instruction not to) on Sunday.
[/quote]

Insua's always getting forward or am I dreaming or lying or something ?
 
I get what you are saying Ryan.

I would agree to an extent, our wide players should be providing more, but I was responding to your 'the forum needs a scapegoat' line. The CM's are getting flak because they deserve it more.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058355#msg1058355 date=1266880920]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058350#msg1058350 date=1266880845]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058346#msg1058346 date=1266880609]
Ryan, our CM partnership have not got a league goal BETWEEN them all season long. No one is asking them to carry the team through or win games on their own but it is right to expect more from that dept. I think the assist count is ridiculously low too.
[/quote]

How many league goals did we get out of Alonso and Mascherano last season?

You're missing the point by an absolute mile Stu.
[/quote]

I don't think he is Ryan. You can still open up games without having assists and goals to your name.
[/quote]

You don't need to tell me mate, I know full well.

Focusing on the attacking contributions of two central midfielders, when we have players in positions who's fucking job it is to do that who aren't doing it is follish though.
To further my point from earlier, the attacking thrust of Mascherano and Lucas looks even less of a thrust at all when you're giving the ball to a Carra, a Babel or a Maxi. Replace them with Johnson, Torres, Benayoun, and the onus doesn't fall on the midfielders to be particularly creative.

Alonso and Mascherano weren't significantly more creative last season, and didn't provide many more assists, but they were playing with our better p[layers more often, and we were playing with a lot more confidence.
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058359#msg1058359 date=1266881159]
The CM's are getting flak because they deserve it more.
[/quote]

I don't agree with that.
 
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference. Lucas is often guilty of being slow in possession, you could put this down to him not having a Torres to play to lately, but either way I think he should move it on quicker than he does sometimes.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference.
[/quote]

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. His distribution and ability to bring others into the game was more telling despite the assists stats maybe talling a different story.

Anyway. We're shit cos we're a team full of plodders. And that's it really.
 
Part of the problem is we're used to mediocrity on the wings - it's been that way for 10+ years after all.

In the same time we've been blessed with some wonderful central midfielder's in Xabi and Didi.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference. Lucas is often guilty of being slow in possession, you could put this down to him not having a Torres to play to lately, but either way I think he should move it on quicker than he does sometimes.
[/quote]

Posted 20 minutes previous...

The CM pairing of Lucas and Mash did win the battle but neither move the ball fast enough or with enough accuracy to enable our wingers to do damage.

If Lucas delays and he usually does, this allowed the fullback/covering player time to get tight to our attackers. You rightly called Zabelleta as MOTM. He's an experienced player who knows how to play against pace. He was tight to Babel and it led to Babel not being an option for the CM's to pass to, hence his 12 touches. Our CM's just couldn't move the ball quick enough to enable Babel to get a couple of yards.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058365#msg1058365 date=1266881485]
Anyway. We're shit cos we're a team full of plodders. And that's it really.
[/quote]

Ain't that the truth.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058365#msg1058365 date=1266881485]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference.
[/quote]

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. His distribution and ability to bring others into the game was more telling despite the assists stats maybe talling a different story.

Anyway. We're shit cos we're a team full of plodders. And that's it really.
[/quote]

In reference to someone's question earlier as to why we bought Aquilani (think it was Assulin) - this is probably one reason. From the little gametime he's had, it's clear he's good at one thing - moving the ball quikcly. Often first time, often forward, often with pace. Good thing, and one (of few) reasons to believe he could make a difference for us.

Unfortunately for him and us, there are too many deficiences currently in his game to make him a more regular starter.
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058367#msg1058367 date=1266881730]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference. Lucas is often guilty of being slow in possession, you could put this down to him not having a Torres to play to lately, but either way I think he should move it on quicker than he does sometimes.
[/quote]

Posted 20 minutes previous...

The CM pairing of Lucas and Mash did win the battle but neither move the ball fast enough or with enough accuracy to enable our wingers to do damage.

If Lucas delays and he usually does, this allowed the fullback/covering player time to get tight to our attackers. You rightly called Zabelleta as MOTM. He's an experienced player who knows how to play against pace. He was tight to Babel and it led to Babel not being an option for the CM's to pass to, hence his 12 touches. Our CM's just couldn't move the ball quick enough to enable Babel to get a couple of yards.
[/quote]

Stu, it was a small point and doesn't excuse some of the ordinary performances from our wingers. Both Babel and Benayoun received the ball early, and in space a couple of times on Sunday and did nothing with it.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058373#msg1058373 date=1266882305]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058365#msg1058365 date=1266881485]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference.
[/quote]

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. His distribution and ability to bring others into the game was more telling despite the assists stats maybe talling a different story.

Anyway. We're shit cos we're a team full of plodders. And that's it really.
[/quote]

In reference to someone's question earlier as to why we bought Aquilani (think it was Assulin) - this is probably one reason. From the little gametime he's had, it's clear he's good at one thing - moving the ball quikcly. Often first time, often forward, often with pace. Good thing, and one (of few) reasons to believe he could make a difference for us.

Unfortunately for him and us, there are too many deficiences currently in his game to make him a more regular starter.
[/quote]

It was me Ryan.

But as you said Benitez wont play him at CM so where does he intend to play him. Its going to be hard to find a suitable role for him in the team so the original question still stands to a certain degree. I mean its fairly obvious he did buy him to replace Alonso he pretty much said so himself and now is having doubts as many others are as to whether he has the ability to do that.

To spend £20m on a player two seasons running and then to decide they are not really what you wanted would be a little bit careless to say the least.
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058382#msg1058382 date=1266883186]


To spend £20m on a player two seasons running and then to decide they are not really what you wanted would be a little bit careless to say the least.

[/quote]

But you'll still get some whopper moaning that he hasn't got any money to buy anyone.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058389#msg1058389 date=1266883568]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058382#msg1058382 date=1266883186]


To spend £20m on a player two seasons running and then to decide they are not really what you wanted would be a little bit careless to say the least.

[/quote]

But you'll still get some whopper moaning that he hasn't got any money to buy anyone.
[/quote]

Quite possibly the one that actually spent it.
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058382#msg1058382 date=1266883186]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058373#msg1058373 date=1266882305]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058365#msg1058365 date=1266881485]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference.
[/quote]

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. His distribution and ability to bring others into the game was more telling despite the assists stats maybe talling a different story.

Anyway. We're shit cos we're a team full of plodders. And that's it really.
[/quote]

In reference to someone's question earlier as to why we bought Aquilani (think it was Assulin) - this is probably one reason. From the little gametime he's had, it's clear he's good at one thing - moving the ball quikcly. Often first time, often forward, often with pace. Good thing, and one (of few) reasons to believe he could make a difference for us.

Unfortunately for him and us, there are too many deficiences currently in his game to make him a more regular starter.
[/quote]

It was me Ryan.

But as you said Benitez wont play him at CM so where does he intend to play him. Its going to be hard to find a suitable role for him in the team so the original question still stands to a certain degree. I mean its fairly obvious he did buy him to replace Alonso he pretty much said so himself and now is having doubts as many others are as to whether he has the ability to do that.

To spend £20m on a player two seasons running and then to decide they are not really what you wanted would be a little bit careless to say the least.

[/quote]

Sorry Niall, wasn't sure who it was.

I think he was put off by the Keane deal, which was effectively paying a big whack of money for the finished article (something if you look at Rafa's record in the market, he has tended to shy away from doing). Thus he reverted back to type and invested in youth and long-term potential. I doubt he thought Aquilani would be as far off the mark as he currently is from being a regular starter.

Take Anderson at United - very similar situation and circumstances to that of Aquilani. Cost the same money(ish), both of them don't fit into their current team, haven't bedded down into the side long enough, are too inconsistent with their performances, and as a result aren't trusted by the Manager for the most part.

The difference with Ferguson is that he's got Carrick, Fletcher, Scholes, Giggs, and (if ever fit) Hargreaves to rely upon so the Anderson conundrum isn't as large as the Aquilani one, where we ultimately need him to adapt quicker. Now you could lay blame at Rafa's door for not having enough alternative options, having sold Alonso, etc etc - but ultimately this doesn't make it any easier for our young Italian.
 
Did I just read a post where someone said Lucas' passing was as good as Alonso's?

Honestly, I fucking despair for the whole Universe.
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1058397#msg1058397 date=1266884290]

Did I just read a post where someone said Lucas' passing was as good as Alonso's?

Honestly, I fucking despair for the whole Universe.

[/quote]

Hi Brendan?
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1058397#msg1058397 date=1266884290]

Did I just read a post where someone said Lucas' passing was as good as Alonso's?

Honestly, I fucking despair for the whole Universe.

[/quote]

Who said that?
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38668.msg1058399#msg1058399 date=1266884922]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1058397#msg1058397 date=1266884290]

Did I just read a post where someone said Lucas' passing was as good as Alonso's?

Honestly, I fucking despair for the whole Universe.

[/quote]

Who said that?
[/quote]

Page 3 I think, the ghost of Alonso too bigged up, Lucas passing just as incisive.

Can't think of many worse posts. Ever.
 
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.
[/quote]

Here you are Ken.
 
Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.

No he wasn't. He was shit. He created fuck all and passed slowly, unimaginatively and short.

Maschaerano had a good game, but again the issue you keep side-stepping with yet more tedious obfuscation and sophistry is this:

Mascherano and Lucas is not a good CM partnership.

The "job" you keep saying they did so well is one that Masher can do on his own.
The spare part twat that is Lucas offers nothing.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1058518#msg1058518 date=1266922285]
Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.

No he wasn't. He was shit. He created fuck all and passed slowly, unimaginatively and short.

Maschaerano had a good game, but again the issue you keep side-stepping with yet more tedious obfuscation and sophistry is this:

Mascherano and Lucas is not a good CM partnership.

The "job" you keep saying they did so well is one that Masher can do on his own.
The spare part twat that is Lucas offers nothing.
[/quote]

to be fair I don't think masher can do the job entirely on his own but you'd think his partner would get forwards more given that he (the second CM) knows masher is there too mop up if he loses the ball.
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058494#msg1058494 date=1266917814]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.
[/quote]

Here you are Ken.
[/quote]

I think effective was the word he meant. And if you just look at assists he's right.

But obviously there's a lot more to it than that...
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38668.msg1058528#msg1058528 date=1266924340]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058494#msg1058494 date=1266917814]
[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.
[/quote]

Here you are Ken.
[/quote]

I think effective was the word he meant. And if you just look at assists he's right.

But obviously there's a lot more to it than that...
[/quote]

It was a laughable statement. Which is a shame really because I think there was some semblance of a point in there somewhere.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1057930#msg1057930 date=1266843597]
Alonso's passing no more incisive than Lucarse?

Fuck me, that is simply outrageously fucking stupid
[/quote]

A RAWK invasion? Next we will hear how Lucas only looks bad because the team lack a footballing brain as brilliant as his.

How silly of me, now I remember all of Lucas's successful 40 yard cross field passes...
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058374#msg1058374 date=1266882410]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058367#msg1058367 date=1266881730]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058364#msg1058364 date=1266881316]
I will add though that I feel we don't move the ball quick enough out of midfield. Alonso was marvellous at this, and it made a significant difference. Lucas is often guilty of being slow in possession, you could put this down to him not having a Torres to play to lately, but either way I think he should move it on quicker than he does sometimes.
[/quote]

Posted 20 minutes previous...

The CM pairing of Lucas and Mash did win the battle but neither move the ball fast enough or with enough accuracy to enable our wingers to do damage.

If Lucas delays and he usually does, this allowed the fullback/covering player time to get tight to our attackers. You rightly called Zabelleta as MOTM. He's an experienced player who knows how to play against pace. He was tight to Babel and it led to Babel not being an option for the CM's to pass to, hence his 12 touches. Our CM's just couldn't move the ball quick enough to enable Babel to get a couple of yards.
[/quote]

Stu, it was a small point and doesn't excuse some of the ordinary performances from our wingers. Both Babel and Benayoun received the ball early, and in space a couple of times on Sunday and did nothing with it.
[/quote]

Even though he started on the bench? I guess we should have expected far more from a player who's coming back after a month on the sidelines ... Him and Torres really should have done more
 
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