Mascherano OR Lucas

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1058046#msg1058046 date=1266852964]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38668.msg1058033#msg1058033 date=1266852356]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38668.msg1058027#msg1058027 date=1266851951]
Good post, Dave

It's pretty much bang-on, although a replacement for Lucas/Aquilani is certainly needed, not possibly.
[/quote]

I don't think along those lines, is that a surprise?...

What we need is five quality players - two strikers (one of who is back up), two wide men - left and right and a left back.
Gerrard can go back deeper into midfield alongside Mascher.
That means we need around £80-£90m, so unless things pick up remarkably we are likely to remain pretty fucked

regards
[/quote]

and yet at times we were amazing last season. I don't think we need the amount of players you suggest just good luck with injuries and a couple of key signings. left midfield and left back for the first team and a competent back up striker for the squad. in regards to CM move gerrard there and play yossi as the support striker.
[/quote]

Forget about last season and it's tactics, the Gerrard / Torres combination worked because A) They were both fit and available and B) It took the opposition a little time to think about how to counteract it.
That's gone now, mainly because by the time Torres is fully match fit we will have around eight games left, Gerrard thus far has not been the player he was last year , we don't have Alonso to supply Gerrard and defenders have worked out if they snuff Gerrard out and isolate an increasingly irritated Torres up front.
Forget about one up front, Forget about Torres preferring to play on his own up front and let's get back to a tried and tested 442 or similar version thereof.
We need five players to take the place of very average players, and if we don't do that we are going to struggle year on year just to try and qualify for the CL spots, let alone mount any realistic challenge
Brendan has it right, as I said earlier the problem really is that too many are content with Lucas as he is the only real option a lot of the time, and that applies to a number of our players.
regards

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=dmishra link=topic=38668.msg1058064#msg1058064 date=1266854832]
It's been said plenty a time by several people.
[/quote]

It depends who he's alongside I guess. Him and Alonso continuously proved to be a poor partnership in terms of defensive discipline and balance, the first half in Istanbul showed that much, but with Masher I don't think it'd be such an issue. The only minor worry is that in his defensive role, Masher is literally everywhere, so would Gerrard be disciplined enough to sit when needed? Masher's everywhere covering ground defensively, and Gerrard wants to be everywhere offensively. In his current role it allows him to wander and when he's on form it generally brings out the best in him.

That said, he should have dropped back and we should have at least tried it, with Yossi playing the 'hole' role.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38668.msg1058066#msg1058066 date=1266854915]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1058046#msg1058046 date=1266852964]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38668.msg1058033#msg1058033 date=1266852356]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38668.msg1058027#msg1058027 date=1266851951]
Good post, Dave

It's pretty much bang-on, although a replacement for Lucas/Aquilani is certainly needed, not possibly.
[/quote]

I don't think along those lines, is that a surprise?...

What we need is five quality players - two strikers (one of who is back up), two wide men - left and right and a left back.
Gerrard can go back deeper into midfield alongside Mascher.
That means we need around £80-£90m, so unless things pick up remarkably we are likely to remain pretty fucked

regards
[/quote]

and yet at times we were amazing last season. I don't think we need the amount of players you suggest just good luck with injuries and a couple of key signings. left midfield and left back for the first team and a competent back up striker for the squad. in regards to CM move gerrard there and play yossi as the support striker.
[/quote]

Forget about last season and it's tactics, the Gerrard / Torres combination worked because A) They were both fit and available and B) It took the opposition a little time to think about how to counteract it.
That's gone now, mainly because by the time Torres is fully match fit we will have around eight games left, Gerrard thus far has not been the player he was last year , we don't have Alonso to supply Gerrard and defenders have worked out if they snuff Gerrard out and isolate an increasingly irritated Torres up front.
Forget about one up front, Forget about Torres preferring to play on his own up front and let's get back to a tried and tested 442 or similar version thereof.
We need five players to take the place of very average players, and if we don't do that we are going to struggle year on year just to try and qualify for the CL spots, let alone mount any realistic challenge
Brendan has it right, as I said earlier the problem really is that too many are content with Lucas as he is the only real option a lot of the time, and that applies to a number of our players.
regards

[/quote]

well we're in trouble then because I don't see us spending enough to get 5 decent players in the summer. I see two arriving (maximum) and then players to pad out the squad.

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38668.msg1058068#msg1058068 date=1266855037]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=38668.msg1058064#msg1058064 date=1266854832]
It's been said plenty a time by several people.
[/quote]

It depends who he's alongside I guess. Him and Alonso continuously proved to be a poor partnership in terms of defensive discipline and balance, the first half in Istanbul showed that much, but with Masher I don't think it'd be such an issue. The only minor worry is that in his defensive role, Masher is literally everywhere, so would Gerrard be disciplined enough to sit when needed? Masher's everywhere covering ground defensively, and Gerrard wants to be everywhere offensively. In his current role it allows him to wander and when he's on form it generally brings out the best in him.

That said, he should have dropped back and we should have at least tried it, with Yossi playing the 'hole' role.
[/quote]

I think we've been spoilt having seen the near-perfect CM combo of Alonso and Mascherano. It doesn't change the fact that Gerrard and Mascherano would be a boss pairing. I have never bought the argument that Gerrard is too wayward. It is also well documented that Alonso and Gerrard played very few games as a pairing. Benitez began favouring the pairing of Hamann and Alonso even when they were simultaneously fit.

Gerrard's position has always been a bit of a conundrum. If we were to sign a player as good as Alonso again, I wouldn't have qualms about pushing Gerrard into a free role again, but while we don't have another central midfielder of note, it is unbelievable that Gerrard and Mascherano haven't started a game in central midfield this season.

 

[Oncy]

-------------------------Reina--------------------------
Carragher-------Agger-----------Skrtel------------Insua
---------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------Mascherano----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard-------------------------------------------Riera
-------------------------Aquilani------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------Torres---------------Kuyt----------------

Sorted.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38668.msg1058182#msg1058182 date=1266869816]
-------------------------Reina--------------------------
Carragher-------Agger-----------Skrtel------------Insua
---------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------Mascherano----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard-------------------------------------------Riera
-------------------------Aquilani------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------Torres---------------Kuyt----------------

Sorted.
[/quote]

To be honest, I'd be happy with that ...

 

[keniget]

Aquilani has been pretty awful in CM so far. If he is going to make it here, it's clear he's going to need a fair amount of time adapting and whilst he's doing that, I'd play him in a three man midfield.

 

[manwithnoname]

It's not really 'sorted' is it?

Aquilani has been rubbish so far

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1058243#msg1058243 date=1266872953]
It's not really 'sorted' is it?

Aquilani has been rubbish so far
[/quote]It doesn't really matter anyway. Rafa will never drop a holding midfielder. He reeks of cowardice.
But yeah, Aquilani hasn't impressed, but he's in and out the side and in different positions and with different partners and he's missed over a year of football. He's still a terrific player and a run of games will have him improving, I'm sure of it.

 

[franklyfrank]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38668.msg1058182#msg1058182 date=1266869816]
-------------------------Reina--------------------------
Carragher-------Agger-----------Skrtel------------Insua
---------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------Mascherano----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard-------------------------------------------Riera
-------------------------Aquilani------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------Torres---------------Kuyt----------------

Sorted.
[/quote]

Riera is utter shite mate and Insua will never be a good enough player for Liverpool.

Jury's still out on Aquilani as well so that's 3 players out of 11 that we would have to carry somewhat and that's not good.

The other 8 are top players, some of them genuinely world class and would grace any team in Europe.

 

[manwithnoname]

Agreed.

8 players who are range from 'world class', to 'very good', to 'OK sometimes'

Not really good enough is it?

That said, there's no 'utterly useless cunts I hate and are ruining the club' so it would be close to my team of choice too

 

[manwithnoname]

Apart from Insua, who is a bit rubbish

 

[the count]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38668.msg1058250#msg1058250 date=1266873206]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38668.msg1058243#msg1058243 date=1266872953]
It's not really 'sorted' is it?

Aquilani has been rubbish so far
[/quote]It doesn't really matter anyway. Rafa will never drop a holding midfielder. He reeks of cowardice.
But yeah, Aquilani hasn't impressed, but he's in and out the side and in different positions and with different partners and he's missed over a year of football. He's still a terrific player and a run of games will have him improving, I'm sure of it.
[/quote]

I don't know Oncey.
I know you are a big fan and he clearly has ability but in my mind he looks chicken shit. Maybe this is as a result of his long term injury and he will grow a pair but I wouldn't be optimistic.
It is pretty daming that Lucas gets picked ahead of him on merit right now.
I hope you are right and I am wrong though mate.

 

[Sunny]

Aquilani's looked shot so far. But he needs game time and he's a pass and move player and we seemed to have lost the ability as a team to do that. Jury's definitely out though.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

He clearly needs a pre-season, and a team with Torres Gerrard Johnson Mascher and our other world class players in it. If he is still churning out the same stuff in 12 months time, then we may have to accept he is not good enough for a starting place. And we already have too many of that type of player.

 

[the count]

I don't doubt that Aqualini has ability.
Unfortunately already I have come to the conclusion that he doesnt have the bottle.
Again, I hope I am wrong.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057973#msg1057973 date=1266847428]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057966#msg1057966 date=1266847170]
[quote author=Piedro link=topic=38668.msg1057960#msg1057960 date=1266846905]
Does anyone think either player will score a League goal from now until the end of the season?

If not, how can you justify a centre midfielder not scoring all season long?
[/quote]

Claude Makalele, regarded as the finest recent example of the defensive midfielder, so much so, that the position was named after him, went many years in succession without a league goal. Michael Essien can hardly be described as prolific in front of goal. I can name example after example.
[/quote]

Yes ok, so we can get away with a Makalele type.

We have two centre mids who dont score goals though.

Never mind.
[/quote]

I don't see the point in this argument to be honest mate.

We got fuck all goals last season out of a midfield partnership of Mascherano and Alonso, yet still scored more goals than any other team in the League.

Our failings in the goalscoring department this season are a result of several things, most notable of which being the injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, and a few others. The fact our central midfielders don't score is a small small problem.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Now I don't know what the stats state but I'd hazard a guess and say Alonso provided more assists than either Lucas or Mascherano. It's not just about the goals, its about the ability to put others in goal scoring positions.

 

[Ryan]

I said this weeks ago, but playing Aquilani in a central midfield two is something Rafa is not going to do, and rightly fucking so.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=38668.msg1058300#msg1058300 date=1266877238]
Now I don't know what the stats state but I'd hazard a guess and say Alonso provided more assists than either Lucas or Mascherano. It's not just about the goals, its about the ability to put others in goal scoring positions.
[/quote]

It's been pointed out earlier Sheik that Alonso contributed something like 3 assists all season.

Regardless, I'm not really arsed whether he contributed 1 or fucking 40. we were a better team with him in it.

 

[Niall K]

Torres and Gerrard were missing for a fair bit of last season and we didnt struggle anywhere near as badly then because we had a midfielder who had almost all the attributes associated with a world class CM. He probably comes up short in the goalscoring and pace departments but he ticks all the other boxes. His replacement looks unfit and more worryingly not actually that good.

Its no wonder we are struggling to play with the same level of authority and decisiveness that was evident in the final months of last season.

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058302#msg1058302 date=1266877677]
I said this weeks ago, but playing Aquilani in a central midfield two is something Rafa is not going to do, and rightly fucking so.
[/quote]

Then why did he buy him ?

 

[MaBigTip]

[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058308#msg1058308 date=1266878288]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058302#msg1058302 date=1266877677]
I said this weeks ago, but playing Aquilani in a central midfield two is something Rafa is not going to do, and rightly fucking so.
[/quote]

Then why did he buy him ?
[/quote]

Who the fuck knows, but it sure has been a disaster.

 

[Ryan]

This thread is just whopping evidence of this Forum's need for a scapegoat. Why, after Sunday's game are we fcousing on two central midfielders, and specifically the pairing of them? Every fucking ill or fault this year is seemingly linked back to Lucas in some way. Zero shots on goal, two wingers who provided zero, and the narrowest attacks in living history - And the forum's on top of Lucas again. 6 degrees of seperation.

Mascherano and Lucas got the better of De Jong and Barry on Sunday. City's midfield is an experienced and good one, no doubt about it, but we were the team on top, and the team more in control (a phrase loved by many on here). Mascherano was outstanding, absolutely outstanding (you could nitpick about free-kicks and bookings but you take the rough with the smooth if he's going to play like that). Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

If they can do and win their battle and job, why are we asking them to compensate for others? If Maxi and Babel aren't creative enough to engineer fucking one chance or shot, then why is the onus falling on our midfield pairing. Sunday's MOTM? Zabaleta. Made an absolute cunt out of Ryan Babel (who's "pacy" don't forget). Kuyt's contribution? Minimal. Guilty of dropping too deep. Gerrard? Again crowded out of it. Maxi - nothing. Substitutions? Not much more. People are banging on about Mascherano's passing, and Lucas's through balls. Who the fuck is there to pass it to? I pointed out in another thread that Babel was in possession of the ball 12 times in 70 minutes. 12 fucking times. That is diabolical. No offence to Carra, but why give it to him if all he's going to do is shunt it straight back to you. Maxi, whilst capable of receiving and keeping it, just isn't going to hurt people. Thus Gerrard invariably picks it up, and gets crowded out. We need to get fucking braindead players like Babel out of the team, and replace them with footballers who can find time and space. Next time City are on the TV, watch how Tevez finds space and the ball. He's brilliant at it. That's what we need. If there's fuck all to pass it to, and fuck all resulting in them getting the ball no wonder the two playing the passes look insipid.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Gerrard to influence. He needs better players around him. Too much emphasis is being placed on a midfield pairing that won their battle on Sunday. Too little though is being asked of our ability to create chances in the final third - this is the responsibility of players in attacking positions who's job it is to do that. We need better players in attacking positions, and we need to get Torres, Benayoun and Johnson back fit. We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058323#msg1058323 date=1266879206]
This thread is just whopping evidence of this Forum's need for a scapegoat. Why, after Sunday's game are we fcousing on two central midfielders, and specifically the pairing of them? Every fucking ill or fault this year is seemingly linked back to Lucas in some way. Zero shots on goal, two wingers who provided zero, and the narrowest attacks in living history - And the forum's on top of Lucas again. 6 degrees of seperation.

Mascherano and Lucas got the better of De Jong and Barry on Sunday. City's midfield is an experienced and good one, no doubt about it, but we were the team on top, and the team more in control (a phrase loved by many on here). Mascherano was outstanding, absolutely outstanding (you could nitpick about free-kicks and bookings but you take the rough with the smooth if he's going to play like that). Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

If they can do and win their battle and job, why are we asking them to compensate for others? If Maxi and Babel aren't creative enough to engineer fucking one chance or shot, then why is the onus falling on our midfield pairing. Sunday's MOTM? Zabaleta. Made an absolute cunt out of Ryan Babel (who's "pacy" don't forget). Kuyt's contribution? Minimal. Guilty of dropping too deep. Gerrard? Again crowded out of it. Maxi - nothing. Substitutions? Not much more. People are banging on about Mascherano's passing, and Lucas's through balls. Who the fuck is there to pass it to? I pointed out in another thread that Babel was in possession of the ball 12 times in 70 minutes. 12 fucking times. That is diabolical. No offence to Carra, but why give it to him if all he's going to do is shunt it straight back to you. Maxi, whilst capable of receiving and keeping it, just isn't going to hurt people. Thus Gerrard invariably picks it up, and gets crowded out. We need to get fucking braindead players like Babel out of the team, and replace them with footballers who can find time and space. Next time City are on the TV, watch how Tevez finds space and the ball. He's brilliant at it. That's what we need. If there's fuck all to pass it to, and fuck all resulting in them getting the ball no wonder the two playing the passes look insipid.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Gerrard to influence. He needs better players around him. Too much emphasis is being placed on a midfield pairing that won their battle on Sunday. Too little though is being asked of our ability to create chances in the final third - this is the responsibility of players in attacking positions who's job it is to do that. We need better players in attacking positions, and we need to get Torres, Benayoun and Johnson back fit. We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.
[/quote]

I dont think everyone needs a scapegoat nor are our two CM's the sole reason for our lack of creativity but it would help if either of them offered some level of attacking threat.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Maybe the problem goes deeper than our players, it could be down to the coaching?
Why did the wingers/attacking players not contribute as much as they could have? Perhaps because they were never given the ball quick enough or had a ball to run onto? I'll stop short of Rebels 'balls in behind' line, but it is a fact that Maxi & Babel received the ball with their back to the goal and/or at a standstill for most of the game. The CM pairing of Lucas and Mash did win the battle but neither move the ball fast enough or with enough accuracy to enable our wingers to do damage.

Sheik posted something along the lines of 'pass it sideways, move it back to defense, pass it sideways, pass it five yards forward, pass it sideways' etc etc and I think that is the reason they take a lot of flak here on SCM, it is mind numbingly boring to watch and people just want to see a bit more.

People are not slagging Babel or Maxi as neither are first team regulars. Mash and Lucas are. The partnership has positives, like you say, but it is not creative enough, not by a long way.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38668.msg1058336#msg1058336 date=1266880044]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1058323#msg1058323 date=1266879206]
This thread is just whopping evidence of this Forum's need for a scapegoat. Why, after Sunday's game are we fcousing on two central midfielders, and specifically the pairing of them? Every fucking ill or fault this year is seemingly linked back to Lucas in some way. Zero shots on goal, two wingers who provided zero, and the narrowest attacks in living history - And the forum's on top of Lucas again. 6 degrees of seperation.

Mascherano and Lucas got the better of De Jong and Barry on Sunday. City's midfield is an experienced and good one, no doubt about it, but we were the team on top, and the team more in control (a phrase loved by many on here). Mascherano was outstanding, absolutely outstanding (you could nitpick about free-kicks and bookings but you take the rough with the smooth if he's going to play like that). Lucas whilst not as demonstrative or eye-catching was good. He was on the ball far far more than he has been in recent weeks, did his usual trick of hardly ever giving it away, and won the ball back on several vital occassions. He has a fantastic knack of winning it back without actually going to ground either. He's had better games, but he contributed. Mascherano didn't win the midfield battle on his own.

If they can do and win their battle and job, why are we asking them to compensate for others? If Maxi and Babel aren't creative enough to engineer fucking one chance or shot, then why is the onus falling on our midfield pairing. Sunday's MOTM? Zabaleta. Made an absolute cunt out of Ryan Babel (who's "pacy" don't forget). Kuyt's contribution? Minimal. Guilty of dropping too deep. Gerrard? Again crowded out of it. Maxi - nothing. Substitutions? Not much more. People are banging on about Mascherano's passing, and Lucas's through balls. Who the fuck is there to pass it to? I pointed out in another thread that Babel was in possession of the ball 12 times in 70 minutes. 12 fucking times. That is diabolical. No offence to Carra, but why give it to him if all he's going to do is shunt it straight back to you. Maxi, whilst capable of receiving and keeping it, just isn't going to hurt people. Thus Gerrard invariably picks it up, and gets crowded out. We need to get fucking braindead players like Babel out of the team, and replace them with footballers who can find time and space. Next time City are on the TV, watch how Tevez finds space and the ball. He's brilliant at it. That's what we need. If there's fuck all to pass it to, and fuck all resulting in them getting the ball no wonder the two playing the passes look insipid.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Gerrard to influence. He needs better players around him. Too much emphasis is being placed on a midfield pairing that won their battle on Sunday. Too little though is being asked of our ability to create chances in the final third - this is the responsibility of players in attacking positions who's job it is to do that. We need better players in attacking positions, and we need to get Torres, Benayoun and Johnson back fit. We don't need to focus on a midfield two who performed well.
[/quote]

I dont think everyone needs a scapegoat nor are our two CM's the sole reason for our lack of creativity but it would help if either of them offered some level of attacking threat.
[/quote]

Why are we asking our central midfielders to offer an attacking threat, when we have attackers who don't even offer a fucking attacking threat?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The problem isn't solely down to the lack of attacking inclination by the CM pairing. It's because we've got too many average players on the wings, in central midfield and attack. If you haven't got the skill to make space then you need some pace at least. Half of our team have neither.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Ryan, our CM partnership have not got a league goal BETWEEN them all season long. No one is asking them to carry the team through or win games on their own but it is right to expect more from that dept. I think the assist count is ridiculously low too.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38668.msg1058346#msg1058346 date=1266880609]
Ryan, our CM partnership have not got a league goal BETWEEN them all season long. No one is asking them to carry the team through or win games on their own but it is right to expect more from that dept. I think the assist count is ridiculously low too.
[/quote]

How many league goals did we get out of Alonso and Mascherano last season?

You're missing the point by an absolute mile Stu.