Mascherano OR Lucas

[ibromurph]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1057521#msg1057521 date=1266771816]
I repeat, only one can play next to each other. We're killing our chances of 4th with every game when we start with two DMs who don't pass well at all.
[/quote]

Yep. Lucas is the slightly better passer but Mascher is the far better defensive midfielder.

 

[aquaman4]

gerrard and masch as our cm and 2 forwards or torres and yossi .lucas sold or released from his contract .

 

[the count]

[quote author=aquaman4 link=topic=38668.msg1057561#msg1057561 date=1266773024]
gerrard and masch as our cm and 2 forwards or torres and yossi .lucas sold or released from his contract .
[/quote]

I am not sure if you are joking about releasing Lucas from his contract but you do realise that , if sold, he would probably generate a fee in excess of ten million or at worst, comfortably in excess of what we paid for him, which was in around the six million I think.

Or perhaps we are getting new mega rich sugar daddy as an owner and we can afford to throw money away.

 

[Judge Jules]

Count sir, while I agree we can get something for him and wouldn't just naff him off, I'd be pleasantly surprised if we got even £6 mill. If you seriously think he could command a £10 mill.fee, can I interest you in a couple of bridges over the Thames that I'm looking to sell?

 

[SummerOnions]

We could.

Have you seen the market recently?

Even shit players like Babel can command an £11.5M fee.

 

[Judge Jules]

Even with Carson Yeung's cash to splash, Birmingham would only go to £8-9 mill. Had they been willing to offer £11.5 mill.I wonder if he'd still have been a Liverpool player by now - besides which, he has more talent even on a bad day than Lucas will ever dream about, even if he keeps it under wraps too often.

 

[the count]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38668.msg1057627#msg1057627 date=1266780140]
Even with Carson Yeung's cash to splash, Birmingham would only go to £8-9 mill. Had they been willing to offer £11.5 mill.I wonder if he'd still have been a Liverpool player by now - besides which, he has more talent even on a bad day than Lucas will ever dream about, even if he keeps it under wraps too often.
[/quote]

I don't know JJ. Whatever about your personal feelings about Lucas and even whether he is worth it or not I still say that I wouldn't be surprised if we got in excess of £10m for him. Whatever about the opinion held on here about him there seems to be common held view elsewhere and away from the club that at least he is a steady competent centre midfielder playing in a very strong league, for a top team with a regular place in the Brazilian squad. Now none of that makes him a top player but I would warrent that it adds a fair bit extra onto his retail value. I had a quick look at some of the transfers of midfielders in the Premiership last summer and was surprised at the fees that players, some that I have little or no knowledge of commanded.

We probably don't have to look any further than our very own Albert Aqualini to see how inflated fees can be at times. Anyway here are the first few transfers I took note of. Btw I was shocked to see what Downing cost considering the derision that he got on here. Irrespective of how well he seems to be playing for Villa at the moment I doubt if many on here would have sanctioned a move in excess of £10m for him last summer, injury concerns and all.


Midfielder Fabian Delph from Leeds for a fee of €9.5m;
Midfielder Stewart Downing from Middlesbrough for a fee of €14m.
Yuri Zhirkov from CSKA Moscow for a fee of €21m
midfielder Diniyar Bilyaletdinov from Lokomotiv Moscow for a fee of €9m
Irish midfielder Damien Duff from Newcastle United for a fee of €5m

 

[Judge Jules]

You and Onions make some good points, mate, and I accept this is a matter of opinion. I remain unconvinced but, if we do sell him, I certainly hope you fellas turn out to be right.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1057521#msg1057521 date=1266771816]
I repeat, only one can play next to each other. We're killing our chances of 4th with every game when we start with two DMs who don't pass well at all.
[/quote]

It's not our biggest problem LeTall, not by a long way.

Against good sides, we lack a real threat when Torres isn't fit. Brigning Glenjo, Benayoun and Torres back into the side over the coming weeks will make the world of difference to our attacking play. I thought our midfield was solid today, and in no way beaten by Barry, De Jong and Ireland. It's not Lucas or Mascherano's fault that all of our attacks broke down.

 

[Squiggles]

Thing is, Agger's was clearly instructed to bring the ball our and be creative with his distribution today. This, in my mind anyway, is purely because of our lack of creativity at CM. I know he's done it before and has a history of doing so, but never were we more reliant upon him doing something. Our CM partnership does push the onus of creativity more greatly onto other players and in fairness a lot of them really aren't up to it.

Yossi, Torres and Johnson, however, are a hub of creative players and will certainly help us in this respect.

 

[LarryHagman]

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against 16 or so teams in this League. But we do.

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against the cannon fodder in the CL group stages. But we do.

It's not the single man up front that's the problem, it's the all round lack of options.

Bring Alonso back into the equation and get him, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Yossi all 100% fit and all in the form of their lives and it looks OK, hence last season.

But, ordinarily, it doesn't work. It didn't in the League before that 6 month spell last season and it has failed spectacularly since.

Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057760#msg1057760 date=1266805683]
Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

[/quote]

That isn't true, mate. I toyed with the idea of playing 4-4-2 at the start of the season, but there wasn't very many in agreement.

Breaking up the Gerrard, Torres partnership was nothing short of sacrilege.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057760#msg1057760 date=1266805683]

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against 16 or so teams in this League. But we do.

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against the cannon fodder in the CL group stages. But we do.

It's not the single man up front that's the problem, it's the all round lack of options.

Bring Alonso back into the equation and get him, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Yossi all 100% fit and all in the form of their lives and it looks OK, hence last season.

But, ordinarily, it doesn't work. It didn't in the League before that 6 month spell last season and it has failed spectacularly since.

Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

[/quote]

Baseless overreaction.

We've been shorn of our best players for 90% of the season, hence the situation we're in. Had Torres been fit, we'd still be in the Champions League, and eaily in the Top 4.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1057768#msg1057768 date=1266807481]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057760#msg1057760 date=1266805683]

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against 16 or so teams in this League. But we do.

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against the cannon fodder in the CL group stages. But we do.

It's not the single man up front that's the problem, it's the all round lack of options.

Bring Alonso back into the equation and get him, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Yossi all 100% fit and all in the form of their lives and it looks OK, hence last season.

But, ordinarily, it doesn't work. It didn't in the League before that 6 month spell last season and it has failed spectacularly since.

Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

[/quote]

Baseless overreaction.

We've been shorn of our best players for 90% of the season, hence the situation we're in. Had Torres been fit, we'd still be in the Champions League, and eaily in the Top 4.
[/quote]

It can't be 'baseless' Ry as it is actually based on our performances.

Our CM has been appalling this year. They contribute nothing offensively. Absolutely nothing. Breaking the opposition play up and running around a lot is fine but if that's all you can do, well. I don't mind 1 in the team doing that but 2 is over-cautious in the extreme.

Also 90% is obv over the top, Gerrard has played over 20 League games, Torres 16 or 17. You may be right with your Torres claim but him being injured is hardly unusual is it?

This season has severely sapped my interest and I can't bring myself to get embroiled in another Lucas/N'Gog/Insua/Babel/Maxi disussion.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057776#msg1057776 date=1266808864]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38668.msg1057768#msg1057768 date=1266807481]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057760#msg1057760 date=1266805683]

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against 16 or so teams in this League. But we do.

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against the cannon fodder in the CL group stages. But we do.

It's not the single man up front that's the problem, it's the all round lack of options.

Bring Alonso back into the equation and get him, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Yossi all 100% fit and all in the form of their lives and it looks OK, hence last season.

But, ordinarily, it doesn't work. It didn't in the League before that 6 month spell last season and it has failed spectacularly since.

Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

[/quote]

Baseless overreaction.

We've been shorn of our best players for 90% of the season, hence the situation we're in. Had Torres been fit, we'd still be in the Champions League, and eaily in the Top 4.
[/quote]

It can't be 'baseless' Ry as it is actually based on our performances.

Our CM has been appalling this year. They contribute nothing offensively. Absolutely nothing. Breaking the opposition play up and running around a lot is fine but if that's all you can do, well. I don't mind 1 in the team doing that but 2 is over-cautious in the extreme.

Also 90% is obv over the top, Gerrard has played over 20 League games, Torres 16 or 17. You may be right with your Torres claim but him being injured is hardly unusual is it?

This season has severely sapped my interest and I can't bring myself to get embroiled in another Lucas/N'Gog/Insua/Babel/Maxi disussion.

[/quote]

You and me both.

The "injuries" thing is an excuse, but a fucking good one. As the season's showed, our squad's not good enough to compete at the very top. As it is, I still think we'll finish in the Top 4. We can only guess that the difference having Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun, Johnson and a few others consistently fit would have made, but my guess is a big one.

 

[Glock21]

It is very simple and straightforward answer, Mascherano deserves to start more games than Lucas is. And YES i agree Lucas should not play alongside Mascher, nor he should be on the bench. He should be on the stands or fuck off back to Brasil. Very simple.

But Rafa and some kids here think the opposite, Lucas is a good midfielder blah blah blah and when we finish this season somewhere in 6th or 7th place, Rafa will get the boot and i sincerely hope all of you Rafa lovers and followers fuck off too.

 

[jexykrodic]

Mascherano or Lucas...what a feckin' choice.

One's a soldier ant, the other a crab.

Neither has the vision or skill to pick a pass, just stopping others playing or moving the ball on isn't good enough.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38668.msg1057760#msg1057760 date=1266805683]

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against 16 or so teams in this League. But we do.

We don't need to play 7 defensive players against the cannon fodder in the CL group stages. But we do.

It's not the single man up front that's the problem, it's the all round lack of options.

Bring Alonso back into the equation and get him, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt and Yossi all 100% fit and all in the form of their lives and it looks OK, hence last season.

But, ordinarily, it doesn't work. It didn't in the League before that 6 month spell last season and it has failed spectacularly since.

Its the wrong formation for us now and most of us spotted that in August.

[/quote]

Yes. I said at the start of the seaon that if we started the first game against Spurs with Lucas and Masher as our CM partnership we'd have no chance of the title. That much was obvious.

What was also obvious is that the formation and way we play, can only work when we have Torres and Gerrard and a CM who can pass supplying them. It cannot work with Eggnog as a lone striker. Or Kuyt. But Benitez can't change it. He doesn't have the tactical flexibility to adopt and adapt sytsems to fit the personnel at his disposal, which is why we have paceless plodders meandering around the pitch passing the ball sideways and backwardsm and our season has been a predictable disaster.

That's before on factors in the disaster that has been fucking Aquilani, who will be gone by next season. Hopefully.

 

[spider-Neil]

masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.

 

[Delinquent]

Such lapses tend to happen when he is trying to do too much. That's the point.

I'm not saying he doesn't make mistakes, or that his squandering of possession yesterday wasn't wasteful or reckless. I'm just saying that when the burden of creating something is lifted from him, he's a more than adequate passer of the ball. I actually think it's improved during his time here.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057899#msg1057899 date=1266839999]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.
[/quote]

I've seen the likes of Zidane and Gerrard misplace easy passes, it's easily done. You offer no real point. Masher is a top class defensive midfielder. He's captain of a major footballing nation, the only one in the team who is. Barcelona, regarded as the best football team in the world and probably over the last 10 years, are clamouring for him.

I can only conclude with that point that you've never played the game.

 

[Carshaltonian]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.

Alonso only played in something like 27 league games last year too, so it's not like we couldn't play without him (Man U away is the classic example, when Lucas was the best midfielder on view by a mile).

So I just don't see how playing two defensive midfielders this season is hurting the team when we had two defensive midfielders doing the same last season and. as match stats show, neither was exactly bombing forward and getting or making goals

Liverpool's main problem has been a lack of quality in wide areas all season, allied with Gerrard's total slump in form (only 6 goals, two of which were penalties), so we've been toothless in the attacking 3 midfield positions, a situation made worse by the lengthy injury to Torres.

That's what's been "harming the team", not what the two DMs have been doing - in fact they've both done a fabulous job in their positions

But let's ignore all that and get back on track and slag off Lucas

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38668.msg1057917#msg1057917 date=1266842677]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057899#msg1057899 date=1266839999]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38668.msg1057894#msg1057894 date=1266839619]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38668.msg1057865#msg1057865 date=1266835763]
masher - for a player deemed 'world class' his use of the ball is at best mediocre and at worst shocking. there was one pass yesterday were (completely fucking unchallenged) he gave it a man city player standing no more than 5 yards away from him. seriously, how is that even possible? was he even looking when he attempted the pass?
[/quote]

Any idiot can surmise that Masher's passing tends to get worse when one or more of the following factors are true:

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

The situation is obviously compounded when all the above are true simultaneously.

This has been done to death before anyway. Masher is just about the best in the world at what he does but he needs to be supplemented by players of similar (or even some) competence in the bits he's not so good at. He had one of those in Alonso. He doesn't have it in Lucas. What's more, when the rest of the team (and in particular our wide players) are largely static and incapable of any injection of pace, it leaves very little in the way of options going forward. The burden should not be on Masher to provide creativity and yet far too often he finds himself in possession in the centre circle with half the team staring at him waiting for him to do something.

Honestly, you've lambasted both Carra and Masher today and yet continue to staunchly defend the hapless Ryan Babel. It's laughable really.
[/quote]

a) we have very little time on the ball
b) we have very few players offering themselves for the ball
c) we have no one offering any kind of incisive forward passing and Masher takes it upon himself to provide this

again, what has that got to with him passing to a man city player standing five yards away from him when he wasn't even challenged whilst making the pass? as I said before were his eyes closed? did he mistakenly see blue as red for a second? masher has his fans, whatever, but sometimes his passing is nothing short of shocking.
[/quote]

I've seen the likes of Zidane and Gerrard misplace easy passes, it's easily done. You offer no real point. Masher is a top class defensive midfielder. He's captain of a major footballing nation, the only one in the team who is. Barcelona, regarded as the best football team in the world and probably over the last 10 years, are clamouring for him.

I can only conclude with that point that you've never played the game.
[/quote]

so being a defensive midfielder gives masher a 'pass' in regards to creativity? okay, glad we got that cleared up. also, I love the 'you've never played the game' chestnut, as if that had anything whatsoever to do with masher's continual profligacy with the ball.

 

[manwithnoname]

Alonso's passing no more incisive than Lucarse?

Fuck me, that is simply outrageously fucking stupid

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Carshaltonian link=topic=38668.msg1057926#msg1057926 date=1266843443]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38668.msg1043872#msg1043872 date=1264584503]
People see the word Lucas and the either go bonkers (Brendan) or become very defensive (Mark). Fact is, I don't like the player but that is not what the post's about. It's about the fact only ONE should be in the middle, not BOTH. It's hurting our team.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I've never bought into the re-invention of Alonso as some super-player that was the springboard for our attacks. He was an out-and-out defensive midfielder, as is shown by the fact that he only made three assists out of our 77 league goals last year. His passing was no more incisive than Lucas this season.

Alonso only played in something like 27 league games last year too, so it's not like we couldn't play without him (Man U away is the classic example, when Lucas was the best midfielder on view by a mile).

So I just don't see how playing two defensive midfielders this season is hurting the team when we had two defensive midfielders doing the same last season and. as match stats show, neither was exactly bombing forward and getting or making goals

Liverpool's main problem has been a lack of quality in wide areas all season, allied with Gerrard's total slump in form (only 6 goals, two of which were penalties), so we've been toothless in the attacking 3 midfield positions, a situation made worse by the lengthy injury to Torres.

That's what's been "harming the team", not what the two DMs have been doing - in fact they've both done a fabulous job in their positions

But let's ignore all that and get back on track and slag off Lucas
[/quote]

Mate, I don't know who you are and don't recall seeing any of our posts before but you should post more if that's an indication of your opinions, its like a breath of fresh air.

I agree with every word.

 

[Delinquent]

Undermining Alonso's contribution to the team is as ignorant as blaming all of our woes on Lucas.

And if our main problem is our lack of quality in wide areas, how is it that we're doing so badly despite having exactly the same players there as we did last season?

 

[Le Chacal]

Lucas is our worst starting midfielder in the last decade.
On french TV they were ridiculing him and the fact he was named brazilian footballer of the year.
It was painful to hear.
Playing him AND Mascherano is the main reason we're 7th in the league.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38668.msg1057934#msg1057934 date=1266843877]
Lucas is our worst starting midfielder in the last decade.
On french TV they were ridiculing him and the fact he was named brazilian footballer of the year.
It was painful to hear.
Playing him AND Mascherano is the main reason we're 7th in the league.
[/quote]

its not the MAIN reason, I don't even think its top 3.