Lucas

[Ryan]

So I’m probably ready to commit to my annual ‘what does Lucas do’ response. I occasionally forget that I’m tired of explaining his role (usually a summer-time thing) and decide to try and present it again. It’s nearly always worthless. People have made up their mind, and somehow think that the ball just ends up at the feet of Coutinho/Sturridge/whomever as if the thing’s just magically fallen from the fucking moon. Well it hasn’t, someone’s gone and got it, won it back, and gave it to you. And that same someone is the reason you get to play as an attacking mid with limited defensive responsibilities. But anyway, here’s an example.

Benteke’s goal. No one notices Lucas’s contribution here, cos really it’s not that exciting, and he wasn’t the one doing the more difficult skill of controlling a spinning ball on your chest and then thwacking it into the postage stamp from the edge of the box, but his contribution was significant and typical Lucas.

We’ve got 6 players committed to this attack, the play breaks down, opposition win back the ball and look to play their way out. And Lucas does what he does best – anticipates and wins it back. Say what you want about his pace, ropey tackles, lack of 90 minute fitness, whatever… There is no one in our entire squad as good at reading the play and winning the ball back. No one. He wins it, gives it and we’re off again. Why’s a defensive midfielder on the edge of the opposition’s box winning the ball back? Cos he reads the play well, and it’s what he’s fucking great at.

16 seconds into this video. Bang.



Like a fucking bawss. Hands up if you noticed that before I pointed it out? Did you bollocks.

And that’s what he does. That’s why he plays. For a team built on attack first mindset, with a manager in love with the counter-attack, you need someone who can read what’s happening, win it back (without sliding around on his arse) and set our better players off and running.

Not glamorous, not Coutinho, not Suarez, but crucial all the same. We don’t have anyone else who does that, and that’s why he needs to play in my view.

 

[Gary25]

That's one example of what Lucas is good at Ryan but there was also plenty of examples in that game of why he draws criticism from certain sections of our support.

I like Lucas myself, to a certain extent at least but I'd be lying if I said I was confident of him performing week in, week out for us this season. One of the main reasons for that is his poor injury record tbf.

 

[juniormember]

Problem is, we've had better in Hamann and Mascherano.
I like Lucas, and hope he starts ahead of everyone else at dm.
But only because we don't have anyone better.
And I think that's the jist of it from the majority on this forum.
DM is a necessity. Lucas wouldn't be if the manager was as keen on that position as other areas on the pitch.

 

[leftpeg]

DM is a necessity. Lucas wouldn't be if the manager was as keen on that position as other areas on the pitch.

I think the manager considers this role to be absolutely fundamental to how he wants the team to set up and play.

 

[juniormember]

I think the manager considers this role to be absolutely fundamental to how he wants the team to set up and play.

Wonder why all the money's gone towards defence, attack and utility midfielders for the past 6 transfer windows then.

 

[Zlate]

Always rated Lucas, don't get the hate for him. He's a solid DM, would be better if he tried scoring more but not too fussed if we keep him as our DM, doubt he'll play though with Milner and Henderson certain starters

 

[leftpeg]

Wonder why all the money's gone towards defence, attack and utility midfielders for the past 6 transfer windows then.

First he deployed the club captain there. He also had the option of Lucas (when fit) and he bought Can...not to mention Allen so I would say he has placed an emphasis on that position.

 

[juniormember]

Because he has confidence in the options at his disposal. And remember he did buy Can.

Can wasn't playing in that position.
And Lucas had lost his place not only to Gerrard but Allen as well over the last couple of seasons.
His only specialist defensive midfielder has always been Lucas only.
Now take a look at all other positions. Every single one of them have alternative 'specialists', good or bad, bought by Rodgers.

 

[leftpeg]

I've amended my original post. The very fact that he played the club captain in the role illustrates the importance the manager places on it. It is integral to his preferred style of play but of course goal scorers and flair players are always going to command higher fees.

 

[juniormember]

I've amended my original post. The very fact that he played the club captain in the role illustrates the importance the manager places on it. It is integral to his preferred style of play but of course goal scorers and flair players are always going to command higher fees.

The fact that the club captain had no dicipline to play in the role, the fact that Allen is ill-suited to the role/breaks in half when he gets touched, and the fact that he lost his place to them says more about his priorities.
I'm not talking about big money or flash signings. I'm talking about 0 specialists in that position being bought during his managerial reign.
Can has never been a specialist DM.

 

[keniget]

I don't think there is any lack of understanding or appreciation for Lucas' role, it's more a question of how well he performs it.

 

[FreshRed]

Don't disagree with the point at all, but I think Milner could do the role extremely well. He is an excellent reader of the game. He can also perform other roles, so this may not be the best place for him to play, but he could do it well.

And, I think Can has potential here. Can reads and anticipates the game well too. Sometimes anticipates too much, gambles and loses. At the attacking end of the pitch (like this clip) that usually has little consequence, but further back will cause problems. But Lucas struggles at the other end sometimes too and gives up those pesky free kicks which we love to defend.

I like Lucas and agree the role is needed, but actually think Milner, Can and even Henderson are capable, if needed.

On the other hand, I think Lucas is a red through and through and that has value to the team ethic and is also underestimated.

 

[mark1975]

I'm not not sure that's the greatest example - their player let the ball run loose because he thought he had more time on the ball. Either way though, as you say, Lucas read the situation. I generally agree with the sentiment, he gives us something no one else does and I think people massively underrate his ability to pick the right pass, even if it's not always an eye catching one. That's a part of his game that's been overlooked from day one.

It's clear he doesn't seem to be going anywhere, he's played a fair amount of football in preseason. Like I've said in the Stoke thread though, it's pointless arguing that, for example, he's imperative against Stoke. He played in both our previous matches there and we've conceded a grand total of 9 goals in two games, with many of those goals coming from positions around our box. He's a good player in certain games when needed to keep us ticking over and to sit holding the fort, but he's not a tenacious midfielder who will hound and press, he will sit and read what's going on and react, he does this well sometimes, and other times he doesn't, but he's useful to have in the squad and is a likeable lad who loves the club, that's enough for me. PS - it was good to see him let off the leash a bit the other day too.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

He's average and fouls a lot in dangerous positions. Meh.

 

[mark1975]

He's average and fouls a lot in dangerous positions. Meh.

He doesn't much anymore. He does foul alot, but he seems to have cut out the obligatory foul a game on the edge of the box.

 

[Judge Jules]

He's a mostly OK player and a good pro, and the job he does in the team is an important one, but his is one of a number of positions in which we're going to have to improve if we're serious about winning titles as opposed to just making top four.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

He doesn't much anymore. He does foul alot, but he seems to have cut out the obligatory foul a game on the edge of the box.

He did it against Swindon.

 

[mark1975]

He did it against Swindon.

I know he did, but generally in competitive games he hasn't been doing it much.

 

[Wiberg]

I'm not not sure that's the greatest example - their player let the ball run loose because he thought he had more time on the ball. Either way though, as you say, Lucas read the situation. I generally agree with the sentiment, he gives us something no one else does and I think people massively underrate his ability to pick the right pass, even if it's not always an eye catching one. That's a part of his game that's been overlooked from day one.

It's clear he doesn't seem to be going anywhere, he's played a fair amount of football in preseason. Like I've said in the Stoke thread though, it's pointless arguing that, for example, he's imperative against Stoke. He played in both our previous matches there and we've conceded a grand total of 9 goals in two games, with many of those goals coming from positions around our box. He's a good player in certain games when needed to keep us ticking over and to sit holding the fort, but he's not a tenacious midfielder who will hound and press, he will sit and read what's going on and react, he does this well sometimes, and other times he doesn't, but he's useful to have in the squad and is a likeable lad who loves the club, that's enough for me. PS - it was good to see him let off the leash a bit the other day too.

Mark, do you think we have won more games with Lucas? He played those two matches with Lucas and Gerrard. A hopeless setup.

As far as I recall we won a lot more with Lucas than without. Problem was that we lost so many with Gerrard. A player Dodgers had to play last season.

@kingBinny; do you the stats outlining the win ratio with Lucas with and without Gerrard?

9 goals against stoke is completely irrelevant considering no-one could have closed a god damn thing with Gerrard in the engine room.

 

[mark1975]

Mark, do you think we have won more games with Lucas? He played those two matches with Lucas and Gerrard. A hopeless setup.

As far as I recall we won a lot more with Lucas than without. Problem was that we lost so many with Gerrard. A player Dodgers had to play last season.

@kingBinny; do you the stats outlining the win ratio with Lucas with and without Gerrard?

9 goals against stoke is completely irrelevant considering no-one could have closed a god damn thing with Gerrard in the engine room.

Look, I'm not arguing that Gerrard or the system as a whole wasn't at fault, but it worked for long enough the previous year without Lucas for large parts, because we had the players we wanted to make the system work. It's as much the fault of having no real outlets for most of the season and us eventually just caving, I said that at the time. But in this system, when it's at its best, it's more about possession and hitting teams quickly when we do get the ball back. Maybe Lucas would help with that, I don't know. All I was saying in relation to the Stoke game is that playing him doesn't really guarantee anything, as the two previous results there have shown..

 

[Brizzle]

Lucas is starting DM for me. I think he gets some flack as he was played in a more advanced role in the 2013-14 season ahead of Gerrard at times and that isn't his natural position any more and struggled a bit.

When he's fit, he starts for me.

 

[Wiberg]

Look, I'm not arguing that Gerrard or the system as a whole wasn't at fault, but it worked for long enough the previous year without Lucas for large parts, because we had the players we wanted to make the system work. It's as much the fault of having no real outlets for most of the season and us eventually just caving, I said that at the time. But in this system, when it's at its best, it's more about possession and hitting teams quickly when we do get the ball back. Maybe Lucas would help with that, I don't know. All I was saying in relation to the Stoke game is that playing him doesn't really guarantee anything, as the two previous results there have shown..

Lucas is very limited as a footballer on the ball but when we are off it he is the best we have. His movement and understanding is that good. It never worked with Gerrard because he is a ball chaser. He didn't think - he reacted.

If we have Hendo and Milner in front of Lucas we will give ourselves the best possible foundation Sunday. I can't imagine Rodgers not playing with great caution after the last trashing.

We need a player like Lucas in front of the back 4 at least until we sign someone better. Like Illarramendi...

 

[Fabio]

He did it against Swindon

If he can't defend consistently well to avoid stupid fouls on the edge of the box, then he's still a liability

I'd expect him to do some of his job adequately, as that's his role, but that doesn't mean I'd want him in the match day squad

 

[Rosco]

Lucas occasionally does good things.

But there's a reason why everyone wanted us to sign a new DM

 

[cloggypop]

I preferred Lucas when he was a Brazilian box to box midfielder.

 

[Judge Jules]

He didn't do well when we initially played him in that role in a few Prem games though, and now we'll never know whether he could have grown into it over time or not. It's a tribute to his professionalism that he's actually become a half-decent DM, but then again it's probably because he's a manufactured DM rather than someone who always did that job that he'll never be better than OK at it.

 

[Mors]

He's our only DM so we do need him, I'd much rather we replace him for a decent one though.

 

[Judge Jules]

About 675 of us would have got banned if this were on RAWK.

 

[Rosco]

I preferred Lucas when he was a Brazilian box to box midfielder.

When he was imaginary?

 

[Wiberg]

When he was imaginary?

No no, FIFA 2004...