Lucas Leiva - Wonderman.
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[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
I suppose this is more viewpoint. Lucas proves himself on his role on a weekly basis, something Johnson, Adam, downing, Carroll, Henderson and kuyt are yet to do.
worry about them.
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
I suppose this is more viewpoint. Lucas proves himself on his role on a weekly basis, something Johnson, Adam, downing, Carroll, Henderson and kuyt are yet to do.
worry about them.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431401#msg1431401 date=1322126361]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
He plays for the best team => he's the best DM.
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
He plays for the best team => he's the best DM.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431401#msg1431401 date=1322126361]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431408#msg1431408 date=1322126575]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
No the problem with stats Ross is you conveniently choose to ignore them unless they support your argument.
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
No the problem with stats Ross is you conveniently choose to ignore them unless they support your argument.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431408#msg1431408 date=1322126575]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431401#msg1431401 date=1322126361]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
both
you chubby funster
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431401#msg1431401 date=1322126361]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431399#msg1431399 date=1322126256]
Because De Jong is the best DM in the league.
[/quote]
Based on what ?
[/quote]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
both
you chubby funster
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431412#msg1431412 date=1322126676]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431408#msg1431408 date=1322126575]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
No the problem with stats Ross is you conveniently choose to ignore them unless they support your argument.
[/quote]
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431408#msg1431408 date=1322126575]
The problem with the stats you posted is if an inherently shit player like Karl Henry becomes comparable to very good players like De Jong then the chances are that either we all have no idea about what a good DM looks like or else the stats don't accurately catch what's relevant.
I know which side I fall on
[/quote]
No the problem with stats Ross is you conveniently choose to ignore them unless they support your argument.
[/quote]
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431414#msg1431414 date=1322126739]
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[/quote]
And what context do they need putting in ? They're statistics - it's simple collection and organisation of data. How you choose to analyse them is up to you. Or rather ignore them
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[/quote]
And what context do they need putting in ? They're statistics - it's simple collection and organisation of data. How you choose to analyse them is up to you. Or rather ignore them
There were stats being thrown about in the summer which showed Stewart Downing to be in the all time top 10 list of most creative players since the PL began.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player?
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player?
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431418#msg1431418 date=1322126866]
There were stats being thrown about in the summer which showed Stewart Downing to be in the all time top 10 list of most creative players in the league.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player.
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
[/quote]
So get back to De Jong. Based on what ? Man City don't even believe he's the best DM in their team.
There were stats being thrown about in the summer which showed Stewart Downing to be in the all time top 10 list of most creative players in the league.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player.
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
[/quote]
So get back to De Jong. Based on what ? Man City don't even believe he's the best DM in their team.
If there's one stat that says something, then it may not be accurate. If there's 20-odd different stats that say something is true, and none that say it's not, and the vast majority of fans agree with it(evidenced by him topping numerous polls) then it's more than likely that it's true.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431417#msg1431417 date=1322126850]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431414#msg1431414 date=1322126739]
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[/quote]
And what context do they need putting in ? They're statistics - it's simple collection and organisation of data. How you choose to analyse them is up to you. Or rather ignore them
[/quote]
It's very simple - if the stats contradict what we know to be true - Henry is shit, De Jong isn't - then there's a problem in what's being counted.
If you base your judgements and transfer policy on statistics that don't differentiate between good and bad players you end up spending 20m on Downing and 35m on Carroll.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47619.msg1431414#msg1431414 date=1322126739]
The problem with them is you have no idea how to put them in context.
[/quote]
And what context do they need putting in ? They're statistics - it's simple collection and organisation of data. How you choose to analyse them is up to you. Or rather ignore them
[/quote]
It's very simple - if the stats contradict what we know to be true - Henry is shit, De Jong isn't - then there's a problem in what's being counted.
If you base your judgements and transfer policy on statistics that don't differentiate between good and bad players you end up spending 20m on Downing and 35m on Carroll.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431423#msg1431423 date=1322127011]
If there's one stat that says something, then it may not be accurate. If there's 20-odd different stats that say something is true, and none that say it's not, and the vast majority of fans agree with it(evidenced by him topping numerous polls) then it's more than likely that it's true.
[/quote]
Indeed. Even though most evidence points to the contrary, people make the false assumption that he's shit because he was (and he was even I thought so) and thus will always be. Some people cannot move beyond original opinion and their closed mindedness prevents them from admitting the player has improved vastly or even admit when the player has a great game. So it's really not worth debating the point with them.
If there's one stat that says something, then it may not be accurate. If there's 20-odd different stats that say something is true, and none that say it's not, and the vast majority of fans agree with it(evidenced by him topping numerous polls) then it's more than likely that it's true.
[/quote]
Indeed. Even though most evidence points to the contrary, people make the false assumption that he's shit because he was (and he was even I thought so) and thus will always be. Some people cannot move beyond original opinion and their closed mindedness prevents them from admitting the player has improved vastly or even admit when the player has a great game. So it's really not worth debating the point with them.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431420#msg1431420 date=1322126917]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431418#msg1431418 date=1322126866]
There were stats being thrown about in the summer which showed Stewart Downing to be in the all time top 10 list of most creative players in the league.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player.
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
[/quote]
So get back to De Jong. Based on what ? Man City don't even believe he's the best DM in their team.
[/quote]
Yes? He's started 90% of their games over the last two seasons. He's had injury problems this year. And if Man City don't want him, I'd have him here for Lucas in a heart beat.
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431418#msg1431418 date=1322126866]
There were stats being thrown about in the summer which showed Stewart Downing to be in the all time top 10 list of most creative players in the league.
Am not sure how these stats are supposed to be interpret a player's impact on a game to be honest. Has there ever been a way to gauge the impact of 'chances created' (not assists), or number of interceptions, or number of dribbles by a player.
There was a season when Opta showed Jermaine Pennant to lead the league in 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'.
So yeah.
[/quote]
So get back to De Jong. Based on what ? Man City don't even believe he's the best DM in their team.
[/quote]
Yes? He's started 90% of their games over the last two seasons. He's had injury problems this year. And if Man City don't want him, I'd have him here for Lucas in a heart beat.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?
Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?
Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431433#msg1431433 date=1322127356]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?
Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?
[/quote]
There's more than Lucas in the midfield. Adam has been shite at times but is improving given him his dues. Kuyt has been shite. Hendo has been shite. Downing has been average.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]
We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.
Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]
Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?
Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?
[/quote]
There's more than Lucas in the midfield. Adam has been shite at times but is improving given him his dues. Kuyt has been shite. Hendo has been shite. Downing has been average.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431431#msg1431431 date=1322127287]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431423#msg1431423 date=1322127011]
If there's one stat that says something, then it may not be accurate. If there's 20-odd different stats that say something is true, and none that say it's not, and the vast majority of fans agree with it(evidenced by him topping numerous polls) then it's more than likely that it's true.
[/quote]
Indeed. Even though most evidence points to the contrary, people make the false assumption that he's shit because he was (and he was even I thought so) and thus will always be. Some people cannot move beyond original opinion and their closed mindedness prevents them from admitting the player has improved vastly or even admit when the player has a great game. So it's really not worth debating the point with them.
[/quote]
I don't think he's shit. I did think he was, and was one of his biggest critics. In recent times, I've admitted that he's improved tremendously. He's achieved a level of consistency over the past two seasons, and developed into a player, who's not worse than 'average' and can at times be very good.
He still has his deficiencies however, and that's the reason why a large number of posters still think we could do with a world class DM or enforcer in his place. I don't see why that's hard to fathom.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431423#msg1431423 date=1322127011]
If there's one stat that says something, then it may not be accurate. If there's 20-odd different stats that say something is true, and none that say it's not, and the vast majority of fans agree with it(evidenced by him topping numerous polls) then it's more than likely that it's true.
[/quote]
Indeed. Even though most evidence points to the contrary, people make the false assumption that he's shit because he was (and he was even I thought so) and thus will always be. Some people cannot move beyond original opinion and their closed mindedness prevents them from admitting the player has improved vastly or even admit when the player has a great game. So it's really not worth debating the point with them.
[/quote]
I don't think he's shit. I did think he was, and was one of his biggest critics. In recent times, I've admitted that he's improved tremendously. He's achieved a level of consistency over the past two seasons, and developed into a player, who's not worse than 'average' and can at times be very good.
He still has his deficiencies however, and that's the reason why a large number of posters still think we could do with a world class DM or enforcer in his place. I don't see why that's hard to fathom.
The comparison between Masher and Lucas is fruitless. Despite both being DM's, they both bring different things to the table and Masher excelled in one respect, while Lucas seems steady if unspectacular in all. Defensively Masher was excellent, he'd snap in with tackles and cover the length of the pitch breaking up the play. Lucas is starting to do the latter alot more but he's never been as tenacious as Masher was. Masher was also quick and despite some deficiencies with his passing which was occasionally sloppy, he was capable of picking the ball up and running with it to open the play up. He never directly scored many but some of his forward play on a occasion could be crucial (the goal against the Mancs which Babel scored at Anfield being a good example). Lucas reads the play well and keeps it simple, yet he does occasionally show the ability to boss the midfield and against quality opposition too.
He's getting there and certainly improving on season. The problem is that when the team plays poor everyone often looks to the defensive midfielder if the team isn't scoring enough or again if the team is conceding too frequently, often it's the case of the primary personnel not doing their jobs. What he needs to cut out is the obvious, giving away soft fouls in dangerous areas and his tendency to look average too often against minor opposition. If he irons out those problems and becomes a bit more daring with his passing (he CAN pass incisively at times), then he and we might be onto a winner.
He's getting there and certainly improving on season. The problem is that when the team plays poor everyone often looks to the defensive midfielder if the team isn't scoring enough or again if the team is conceding too frequently, often it's the case of the primary personnel not doing their jobs. What he needs to cut out is the obvious, giving away soft fouls in dangerous areas and his tendency to look average too often against minor opposition. If he irons out those problems and becomes a bit more daring with his passing (he CAN pass incisively at times), then he and we might be onto a winner.
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