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Lucas Leiva - Wonderman.

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431436#msg1431436 date=1322127445]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431433#msg1431433 date=1322127356]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]

We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.

Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]

Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?

Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?


[/quote]

There's more than Lucas in the midfield. Adam has been shite at times but is improving given him his dues. Kuyt has been shite. Hendo has been shite. Downing has been average.
[/quote]

Yeah fair point Sunny. I've just seen our midfield pissed on too many times over recent seasons and Lucas always seems to be a part of it.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431433#msg1431433 date=1322127356]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]

We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.

Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]

Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?

Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?


[/quote]

Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Adam, Kuyt for starters. Basically all our attackers except Suarez. Not that I don't think any of them can't do a job, but they need to be improved upon before Lucas.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431440#msg1431440 date=1322127553]
I don't think he's shit. I did think he was, and was one of his biggest critics. In recent times, I've admitted that he's improved tremendously. He's achieved a level of consistency over the past two seasons, and developed into a player, who's not worse than 'average' and can at times be very good.

He still has his deficiencies however, and that's the reason why a large number of posters still think we could do with a world class DM or enforcer in his place. I don't see why that's hard to fathom.
[/quote]

That's not hard to fathom and I agree with a lot of it. What is hard to fathom is why he's the constant source of debate when we have more pressing concerns on the pitch. What's been our biggest issue this year ? Attacking and most predominantly finishing. Those are the areas that need to be addressed primarily.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431441#msg1431441 date=1322127637]
The comparison between Masher and Lucas is fruitless. Despite both being DM's, they both bring different things to the table and Masher excelled in one respect, while Lucas seems steady if unspectacular in all. Defensively Masher was excellent, he'd snap in with tackles and cover the length of the pitch breaking up the play. Lucas is starting to do the latter alot more but he's never been as tenacious as Masher was. Masher was also quick and despite some deficiencies with his passing which was occasionally sloppy, he was capable of picking the ball up and running with it to open the play up. He never directly scored many but some of his forward play on a occasion could be crucial (the goal against the Mancs which Babel scored at Anfield being a good example). Lucas reads the play well and keeps it simple, yet he does occasionally show the ability to boss the midfield and against quality opposition too.

He's getting there and certainly improving on season. The problem is that when the team plays poor everyone often looks to the defensive midfielder if the team isn't scoring enough or again if the team is conceding too frequently, often it's the case of the primary personnel not doing their jobs. What he needs to cut out is the obvious, giving away soft fouls in dangerous areas and his tendency to look average too often against minor opposition. If he irons out those problems and becomes a bit more daring with his passing (he CAN pass incisively at times), then he and we might be onto a winner.
[/quote]

That's an excellent summary Mark. Having said that, there's reason to believe that he's not likely to iron out the flaws you've pointed out. Strength, tenacity and aggression aren't traits (and I'm not suggesting for a moment that these are the only traits you need as a DM) you easily pick up through experience, and that's really what seems to be what's missing in his play.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431448#msg1431448 date=1322128035]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431433#msg1431433 date=1322127356]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431398#msg1431398 date=1322126230]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431389#msg1431389 date=1322124910]
So are you with Oncy in thinking we don't need to be looking for a better DM than Lucas?
[/quote]

We should be looking for better players than all our players. Always.

Presently Lucas is one of the least of our worries. If we get the rest of the team up to a certain level, then we should look to improve on Lucas.
[/quote]

Is he? Have you forgot all those games where in which our midfield has been complete shite?

Who would you replace before Lucas given the choice?


[/quote]

Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Adam, Kuyt for starters. Basically all our attackers except Suarez. Not that I don't think any of them can't do a job, but they need to be improved upon before Lucas.
[/quote]

Well if thats only for starters, who else whilst we're at it?

You've just wrote off 4 players after they've only played a handful of games for us (2 of which are youngsters). Now i'd agree that we need to add some quality in the attacking positions, but i'd be amazed if Lucas wasn't in the top 3 to replace lists of most LFC fans.
 
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
 
[quote author=Ossi link=topic=47619.msg1431439#msg1431439 date=1322127526]
Why do we still try with these Lucas threads? EVERYONE knows how they end.
[/quote]*wiggles eyebrows like groucho*
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431457#msg1431457 date=1322128594]
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
[/quote]

Now you're sounding like you'd build a team around him.
 
De Jong has been excellent for City. He won't play any great passes or score any goals but he's rock solid in midfield and proper City fans - at least last season - had him and Kompany as the backbone of their side. Silva probably has jumped to the top of the list now.
 
Lucas is a lovely chap, but I reckon the best DMs are hard, intimidating bastards who can also play a bit. Like Roy Keane or Souness.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47619.msg1431449#msg1431449 date=1322128046]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=47619.msg1431440#msg1431440 date=1322127553]
I don't think he's shit. I did think he was, and was one of his biggest critics. In recent times, I've admitted that he's improved tremendously. He's achieved a level of consistency over the past two seasons, and developed into a player, who's not worse than 'average' and can at times be very good.

He still has his deficiencies however, and that's the reason why a large number of posters still think we could do with a world class DM or enforcer in his place. I don't see why that's hard to fathom.
[/quote]

That's not hard to fathom and I agree with a lot of it. What is hard to fathom is why he's the constant source of debate when we have more pressing concerns on the pitch. What's been our biggest issue this year ? Attacking and most predominantly finishing. Those are the areas that need to be addressed primarily.
[/quote]

I don't disagree much there. We need world class quality in attack - that's not even debatable. Having said that, there have been some people who've said that world class attacking players alone would change our fortunes. I'm not entirely sure that's very likely. We have, over the lost two years, lost our identity through our spine (and I include the keeper, the two CBs, and the two/three CMs here). That's gone from Reina, Carra, Hyypia, Alonso, Masher/Hamann, Gerrard during Rafa's reign to
Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Adam, Henderson etc. And not to say that the likes of Agger, Skrtel and Lucas are shite, but they really aren't in the same class as Carra, Hyypia or Alonso.

In fact, there are times when they are very good but there are also times when they are average (or injured), and that sort of inconsistency is something that's quite detrimental when it's the spine you're talking about. The part of the team that's going to start 90% of your games. And the part of your side that's critical when you're building a side, and establishing a philosophy.

Given that Lucas is part of that not-so-great-spine is why he gets talked about constantly. I have similar concerns about each of Agger, Skrtel and Adam. Another probable reason that he gets debated constantly is because of how polarised the debate gets each time. And this isn't just because of the people who were his critics and continue to be scathing about him, but also because of those who supported him when he was shite, and polarise the debate in the opposite direction.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431463#msg1431463 date=1322129124]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431457#msg1431457 date=1322128594]
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
[/quote]

Now you're sounding like you'd build a team around him.
[/quote]

Ha. No. I wouldn't build a team around anyone really.

He's just one of the least of our worries. The same goes for Reina, Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard(if he gets fit) and Agger.

That said if we did get a better DM than Lucas, I obviously wouldn't be disappointed.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431481#msg1431481 date=1322129997]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431463#msg1431463 date=1322129124]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431457#msg1431457 date=1322128594]
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
[/quote]

Now you're sounding like you'd build a team around him.
[/quote]

Ha. No. I wouldn't build a team around anyone really.

He's just one of the least of our worries. The same goes for Reina, Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard(if he gets fit) and Agger.

That said if we did get a better DM than Lucas, I obviously wouldn't be disappointed.
[/quote]

I think we've got the basis of a good squad. Few sides have more than a couple of players you'd be certain to build a side around, so that's a touch harsh on the rest of the squad. A few quality additions a we're there or thereabouts with the squad to fall back on.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431441#msg1431441 date=1322127637]
The comparison between Masher and Lucas is fruitless. Despite both being DM's, they both bring different things to the table and Masher excelled in one respect, while Lucas seems steady if unspectacular in all. Defensively Masher was excellent, he'd snap in with tackles and cover the length of the pitch breaking up the play. Lucas is starting to do the latter alot more but he's never been as tenacious as Masher was. Masher was also quick and despite some deficiencies with his passing which was occasionally sloppy, he was capable of picking the ball up and running with it to open the play up. He never directly scored many but some of his forward play on a occasion could be crucial (the goal against the Mancs which Babel scored at Anfield being a good example). Lucas reads the play well and keeps it simple, yet he does occasionally show the ability to boss the midfield and against quality opposition too.

He's getting there and certainly improving on season. The problem is that when the team plays poor everyone often looks to the defensive midfielder if the team isn't scoring enough or again if the team is conceding too frequently, often it's the case of the primary personnel not doing their jobs. What he needs to cut out is the obvious, giving away soft fouls in dangerous areas and his tendency to look average too often against minor opposition. If he irons out those problems and becomes a bit more daring with his passing (he CAN pass incisively at times), then he and we might be onto a winner.
[/quote]

good post marky.

as I said in a previous post you can either directly blame the defense for conceeding goals that end up losing us points (but that would seem harsh as we have one of the best defensive records in the league) or you can directly blame the attackers for not scoring enough goals but that would also be a bit harsh as we've scored in pretty much every game this season and we pretty much always score the first goal so they are techniccally doing their job because as a team we haven't been able to shut out the game.

I've focused on the holding midfielder instead (although you win or lose as a team). for me it isn't a case of fucking off lucas to the highest bidder it's picking and choosing when he plays, lucas plays most home games and I don't think he should. it's not a matter of not rating his ability to shield the defense (his primary job) it's a matter of selecting players who would have a better chance of breaking down stubborn defenses.

some people are advocating that we simply go out and buy a better holding midfielder like m'ville(sp) I'm saying right here and now we can improve our chances of securing 3 points at home by selecting a player who is going to give more going forwards than lucas but has the ability to work back in the event of a counter attack.

I'd like to see a combination of adam and henderson through the middle of the park to see if we indeed create more chances and without being all over the place defensively. obviously this wouldn't happen against top teams but there are so much more shit teams that have no attacking intent away so a out and out holding midfielder in these games seems...excessive.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431481#msg1431481 date=1322129997]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431463#msg1431463 date=1322129124]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431457#msg1431457 date=1322128594]
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
[/quote]

Now you're sounding like you'd build a team around him.
[/quote]

Ha. No. I wouldn't build a team around anyone really.

He's just one of the least of our worries. The same goes for Reina, Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard(if he gets fit) and Agger.

That said if we did get a better DM than Lucas, I obviously wouldn't be disappointed.
[/quote]I would. I want him to play a thousand games for us and become captain and win the league for us again.
As has been said, he's seen off Hamman, Alonso, Mascherano, Benitez, Hodgson, Meireles, Cole, Aquilani.....hes UNSTOPPABLE. We need to embrace that not fight it.
He's the Alpha and the Omega.
 
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]

the midfield and attack v norwich was;

downing-----gerrard------adam------bellamy
--------suarez------kuyt----------------

and we drew the game. so that obviously doesn't work let's not do that again?
with any system you have teething problems and then the reap the benefits long term.
I would be happy to that (well, swap maxi for kuyt) at home every time we player lower opposition.

we got taken to the cleaners away at spurs with a CM of lucas and adam, using that reckoning we'd never play adam together with adam away again.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431509#msg1431509 date=1322132537]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
[/quote]

that's not a fact that's an observation.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47619.msg1431513#msg1431513 date=1322132878]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431509#msg1431509 date=1322132537]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
[/quote]

that's not a fact that's an observation.
[/quote]

Why didn't we win that one then? We had Gerrard and Adam in midfield, two more attacking midfielders like you suggest, against a lesser team, and at home. What went wrong?
 
to go a little further,

s'land, first game of the season the front six was;

henderson----lucas----adam-----downing
----------carroll----suarez

and we were over run second half. what was the reason for that? tired legs? the opposition team having more a go? deflated due to not finishing our chances?
you can't look at one game in isolation, say that it does/doesn't work. you have gain experience, iron out mistakes, fine tune tactics and that takes games.
 
Jesus Neil. The first game of the season is used as an example, after you've said (regards the Norwich game) that because it didn't work 'once' it's naive to not give it another go.

The first game of the season, a new partnership in midfield (the same one that didn't get overran against Chelsea), Charlie Adam who clearly at the time had stamina issues (though now looks alot fitter), a wrongly disallowed goal and a shit penalty from Suarez. It's hardly the best example.

People used to say we should go for broke in some games and play Alonso & Gerrard, it wasn't until we threw Masher into the equation to give it balance that it worked, against the shit teams too. When we played with two defensive midfielders we struggled, when we played with two more attacking players we struggled, when we gave it balance it worked.

I'd say the biggest issue for us has been when we've played to play flat in a 442, we don't have the personnel for it and the game has moved on, 433/4312/4321 gives teams more fluidity, defensive stability and variation.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431503#msg1431503 date=1322131684]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431481#msg1431481 date=1322129997]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47619.msg1431463#msg1431463 date=1322129124]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431457#msg1431457 date=1322128594]
Considering he most peoples player of the year last year. I think you'd end up being surprised.

Edit: And I haven't written those players off, I just think they are way less likely to be as important as Lucas is, and how important he will be in the future
[/quote]

Now you're sounding like you'd build a team around him.
[/quote]

Ha. No. I wouldn't build a team around anyone really.

He's just one of the least of our worries. The same goes for Reina, Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard(if he gets fit) and Agger.

That said if we did get a better DM than Lucas, I obviously wouldn't be disappointed.
[/quote]I would. I want him to play a thousand games for us and become captain and win the league for us again.
As has been said, he's seen off Hamman, Alonso, Mascherano, Benitez, Hodgson, Meireles, Cole, Aquilani.....hes UNSTOPPABLE. We need to embrace that not fight it.
He's the Alpha and the Omega.
[/quote]

This man, he's a polariser.

Him and Woland need to go to war.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431520#msg1431520 date=1322133585]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47619.msg1431513#msg1431513 date=1322132878]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431509#msg1431509 date=1322132537]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
[/quote]

that's not a fact that's an observation.
[/quote]

Why didn't we win that one then? We had Gerrard and Adam in midfield, two more attacking midfielders like you suggest, against a lesser team, and at home. What went wrong?
[/quote]

In fairness, that is a very stupid argument.

I wouldn't expect you to come out after we've lost and go "Why did we lose then? We had Lucas as a DM who is supposed to prevent that from happening!".
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=47619.msg1431535#msg1431535 date=1322134701]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431520#msg1431520 date=1322133585]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47619.msg1431513#msg1431513 date=1322132878]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431509#msg1431509 date=1322132537]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
[/quote]

that's not a fact that's an observation.
[/quote]

Why didn't we win that one then? We had Gerrard and Adam in midfield, two more attacking midfielders like you suggest, against a lesser team, and at home. What went wrong?
[/quote]

In fairness, that is a very stupid argument.

I wouldn't expect you to come out after we've lost and go "Why did we lose then? We had Lucas as a DM who is supposed to prevent that from happening!".
[/quote]

To be honest, I think Neils arguments have been pretty stupid up to now. So I was getting carried away. You're right though.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431531#msg1431531 date=1322134297]
Jesus Neil. The first game of the season is used as an example, after you've said (regards the Norwich game) that because it didn't work 'once' it's naive to not give it another go.

The first game of the season, a new partnership in midfield (the same one that didn't get overran against Chelsea), Charlie Adam who clearly at the time had stamina issues (though now looks alot fitter), a wrongly disallowed goal and a shit penalty from Suarez. It's hardly the best example.

People used to say we should go for broke in some games and play Alonso & Gerrard, it wasn't until we threw Masher into the equation to give it balance that it worked, against the shit teams too. When we played with two defensive midfielders we struggled, when we played with two more attacking players we struggled, when we gave it balance it worked.

I'd say the biggest issue for us has been when we've played to play flat in a 442, we don't have the personnel for it and the game has moved on, 433/4312/4321 gives teams more fluidity, defensive stability and variation.
[/quote]

I just used a game as an example, my basic point is nothing should be viewed in isolation. we played norwich at home and drew and second half we were out players there could be any number of reasons for that. we could probably play the exact same team v norwich away and take them to the cleaners.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431537#msg1431537 date=1322134965]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=47619.msg1431535#msg1431535 date=1322134701]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47619.msg1431520#msg1431520 date=1322133585]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47619.msg1431513#msg1431513 date=1322132878]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47619.msg1431509#msg1431509 date=1322132537]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47619.msg1431505#msg1431505 date=1322131716]
The problem is, on paper you'd say Norwich at home is one of those games where he could be sacrificed, the reality was he didn't play and we missed him because no one was picking up the pieces in midfield and Norwich had free reign to run at us. We theorised over this for years and it rarely actually works in practice.
[/quote]Oh look. A fact.
[/quote]

that's not a fact that's an observation.
[/quote]

Why didn't we win that one then? We had Gerrard and Adam in midfield, two more attacking midfielders like you suggest, against a lesser team, and at home. What went wrong?
[/quote]

In fairness, that is a very stupid argument.

I wouldn't expect you to come out after we've lost and go "Why did we lose then? We had Lucas as a DM who is supposed to prevent that from happening!".
[/quote]

To be honest, I think Neils arguments have been pretty stupid up to now. So I was getting carried away. You're right though.
[/quote]

what's stupid about my arguements, we should always play with an out and out midfielder? because I'm basically saying we can pick and chose where we utilise one. I may not be correct but it's certainly not a stupid suggestion, manu have used the likes of carrick as a holding midfielder and got away with it.
 
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