Jesus...Suso....

[Avmenon]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255837#msg1255837 date=1295355574]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255813#msg1255813 date=1295355006]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

If he was here for two years, i'd buy that excuse. It wears very thin when you consider he was here for 6 and he bought more young players than any other manager in the history of LFC...

In fact, us buying young player was a running joke on online forums over the years..."in 5 years we will have the best team in the world" etc...
[/quote]

whatever. blame him for that if you want. wasn't there the story that he stockpiled all those foreign kids as his way of trying to build a competing academy as some sort of protest against the inadequacy of the real academy...don't know the details or how reasonable that was. tbh i find it hard to get annoyed about that because all those players were brought in for buttons. given that, the ratio of successes to failures was always going to be miniscule. i bet he wasn't far off making a profit on the lot of them though, seeing as san jose, mihaijlovic, nemeth and possibly one or two other brought in respectable fees.

the academy's only really started looking better since he got his hands on it towards the end of his reign...might be partly coincidental, but i bet not wholly.
[/quote]

I hope the first paragraph isnt true,Peter...because it sounds pretty insane if it were.

That sort of approach is almost certain to just lead to huge numbers of youngsters not making the grade; different scouts championing different players, and it's almost inconceivable to imagine a path from youngster from either pool of players (foreign and 'local') to the first team, which is the only reason to even have youths in the first place.

As for the finance issues, the shitness of our squad is of far more concern than how much money Rafa saved or earned..which would anyway have been swallwed up by shite transfers, Hicks and Gillett's pockets and interest payments.

Agree with your second para; if anything I just wish Rafa had started trying to revamp things much earlier.

Still dont know how things worked out between Rafa and Heighway; though I'd love to find out.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43540.msg1255857#msg1255857 date=1295356344]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255853#msg1255853 date=1295356008]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255850#msg1255850 date=1295355867]

However, he still didn't use them at all despite points a,b & c

He quite obviously did, as pointed out by Asbo. I don't think you're giving enough recognition to the fact that they just weren't good enough. You want him to play young players just because they're young and not because they're good enough. The players deemed good enough, like Kelly, were brought in and played when possible.
[/quote]

Again, you've not really read my posts ... and you complain about me articulating poorly?

Warnock vs Aurelio? Hammill vs Jova? Julian highlights other examples ... That's all we're saying ... Squad strength would NOT have been compromised too much, and we would have saved millions on transfer fees and ridiculous salaries. Voronin vs Mellor? Both scored a few goals and were average. Which cost the club more? That's my point.
[/quote]

Hammil left in 2007 Jova came in 2010 on a free, how can you possibly compare the 2?

by the way one played in Barnsley in 2007 scoring 0 goals and the other was playing for Standard Liege scorin on average a goal every 2 games, again how can you compare?

lastly one has 2 under 19 caps and the other has 33 full caps?

I will back you on voronin and Mellor though, I liked mellor and did think he was let go too soon!
[/quote]

The Hammill was a comparison only because he would have saved us 70k per week for however long we hold onto Jova. He'd probably contribute as much too! Granted, Jova has the int'l caps & the 'name' from Belgium, but Hammill could have done as good as job as Jova. Just like Warnock could have given this team a similar performance as we've seen from Aurelio and Konchesky.

No one here, I think, expects us to be churning out stars day after day. I think we all wish we had one but they don't come often (we had some great ones in the 90s, as did the Mancs), nor do we have the 'method' Arsene Wenger has set up at Arsenal (similar to Barca). But I do think we have decent enough youngsters to give us some capable back ups, who can be called upon once in a blue moon to contribute. Spearing will never be '1st team material' - but he can contribute and be a useful squad back up. That's all I'm saying.

 

[keniget]

Insua who was impressing in the reserves vs Dossena for 8M

Insua had a couple games in the first team around that time and looked reasonably decent, which increased the expectations that he'd be given a chance. Ultimately Rafa's hand was forced with regards to playing him because Dossena was such a bad buy. Now you could argue that Insua ultimately ended up failing in the first team and you'd probably have a good case, but the difference is we wouldn't have wasted 8M.

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Voronin - International striker playing for Dynamo Kiev
Mellor - playing for PNE loaned out to Sheffield Wednesday

Jovanovic - International striker who's played for Shaktar Donetsk and Standard Liege
Hamill - 4 loan spells from Liverpool where he scored 3 goals in over 90 appearances(granted he seems to have done well for Barnsely in the Championship)


Aurelio - Currently our best left back, I think most agree his downfall is his injury record
Warnock - Currently a year and a half into a five year deal and looks to be moving away.


Now I'm not saying the players chosen have turned out to be good buys, but the odds would go with them given their past. Hamill does look to be turning into a player, but it's still early days, and Aurelio and Warnock, well I dunno, Warnock would probably be a decent option for us now, but I don't think he's a long term option either.

I'm not saying Rafa should not have let every player go, that he did, but the vast majority he did he was right to. His bad signings are obviously a different story which he has to more accountable for.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=43540.msg1255864#msg1255864 date=1295356847]
Insua who was impressing in the reserves vs Dossena for 8M

Insua had a couple games in the first team around that time and looked reasonably decent, which increased the expectations that he'd be given a chance. Ultimately Rafa's hand was forced with regards to playing him because Dossena was such a bad buy. Now you could argue that Insua ultimately ended up failing in the first team and you'd probably have a good case, but the difference is we wouldn't have wasted 8M.

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.
[/quote]

I guess I do agree with this.
I think a lot of the depth of the squad should be made up by kids but at the same time journeymen DO sometimes provide valuable experience, look at gary macca and babbel.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255868#msg1255868 date=1295357163]
Voronin - International striker playing for Dynamo Kiev.
Mellor - playing for PNE loaned out to Sheffield Wednesday.

Agree with comparison, but Mellor performed well for us in 2005. He proved he can score important goals. We can also use FSP here, who would have been 10x better option - and much cheaper - than Voronin or Jova. A youngster we gave up to replace with an older squaddie

Jovanovic - International striker who's played for Shaktar Donetsk and Standard Liege.
Hamill - 4 loan spells from Liverpool where he scored 3 goals in over 90 appearances(granted he seems to have done well for Barnsely in the Championship).

Again, agree with comparison.

Aurelio - Currently our best left back, I think most agree his downfall is his injury record.
Warnock - Currently a year and a half into a five year deal and looks to be moving away.

Again, agree with comparison.

Now I'm not saying the players chosen have turned out to be good buys, but the odds would go with them given their past. Hamill does look to be turning into a player, but it's still early days, and Aurelio and Warnock, well I dunno, Warnock would probably be a decent option for us now, but I don't think he's a long term option either.

I'm not saying Rafa should not have let every player go, that he did, but the vast majority he did he was right to. His bad signings are obviously a different story which he has to more accountable for.[/quote]

The vast majority - I would agree. But he let go of capable youngsters would have saved us money and would have done as good as job. That's what I'm judging my 'disappointment' with Rafa's handling of our youth players. I think Keni sums it up well in his post ...

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255873#msg1255873 date=1295357411]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=43540.msg1255864#msg1255864 date=1295356847]
Insua who was impressing in the reserves vs Dossena for 8M

Insua had a couple games in the first team around that time and looked reasonably decent, which increased the expectations that he'd be given a chance. Ultimately Rafa's hand was forced with regards to playing him because Dossena was such a bad buy. Now you could argue that Insua ultimately ended up failing in the first team and you'd probably have a good case, but the difference is we wouldn't have wasted 8M.

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.
[/quote]

I guess I do agree with this.
I think a lot of the depth of the squad should be made up by kids but at the same time journeymen DO sometimes provide valuable experience, look at gary macca and babbel.
[/quote]

That is exactly what LTW has been saying. How can you agree with this and not that?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that. I think on the whole he did pretty well, and I think he will leave us a few decent young players which will save us money too. He certainly made more of an effort to produce players than some of this predecessors(but then again the game is very different now), and was unlucky not to get lucky with a Carragher, Gerrard, Fowler etc. which would have meant he would be looked upon a lot more favourably.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255886#msg1255886 date=1295358649]
So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that. I think on the whole he did pretty well, and I think he will leave us a few decent young players which will save us money too. He certainly made more of an effort to produce players than some of this predecessors(but then again the game is very different now), and was unlucky not to get lucky with a Carragher, Gerrard, Fowler etc. which would have meant he would be looked upon a lot more favourably.
[/quote]

He should have given more kids a chance to be back ups ... not get 'big minutes' - as many of them probably (as we never know!) wouldn't have produced the quality needed to be starters ... but i think what Fergie does with Manure is a good system - let the kids fill in the gaps in your squad if they're capable. Rafa did leave behind a very very strong base and hopefully with Kenny and the future managers of LFC, we'll reap the benefits of the changes he made.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Jesus, it's already been proven he's given lots of players chances, El Zhar and Ngog are the obvious ones. They weren't good enough, that's not to say the older players he bought were good enough either. But the vast majority of young players we had were not good enough.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255880#msg1255880 date=1295358309]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255873#msg1255873 date=1295357411]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=43540.msg1255864#msg1255864 date=1295356847]
Insua who was impressing in the reserves vs Dossena for 8M

Insua had a couple games in the first team around that time and looked reasonably decent, which increased the expectations that he'd be given a chance. Ultimately Rafa's hand was forced with regards to playing him because Dossena was such a bad buy. Now you could argue that Insua ultimately ended up failing in the first team and you'd probably have a good case, but the difference is we wouldn't have wasted 8M.

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.
[/quote]

I guess I do agree with this.
I think a lot of the depth of the squad should be made up by kids but at the same time journeymen DO sometimes provide valuable experience, look at gary macca and babbel.
[/quote]

That is exactly what LTW has been saying. How can you agree with this and not that?
[/quote]

my opinion (and bear in mind I watch the reserves, not as much as I used to but still)
in the past maybe seven years there has been no stand out kid I thought should progress to the first time so when rafa used the kids sparingly I had no problem with this. more recently, say the past 3 years the quality of the youth team as rapidly increased with several kids I think can make the jump. who is responsible for the raise in quality.
look how much rafa has spent on the youth in the past 4-5 years.

that said though, bringing in the likes of jove, voronin etc on 'free' (they may be free but their wages are ridiculous) I guess I kind of agree that youth could have pulled up the slack but look what has happened to young players that were exposed to the team and didn't pull up trees (mellor, n'gog, insua) they have been ripped apart on the forums and have been moved on (obviously not ngog, yet). I can see why rafa went for the experience, it just didn't work out.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255897#msg1255897 date=1295359009]
Jesus, it's already been proven he's given lots of players chances, El Zhar and Ngog are the obvious ones. They weren't good enough, that's not to say the older players he bought were good enough either. But the vast majority of young players we had were not good enough.
[/quote]

He gave a lot of sub appearances (as per Binny the Statto).

But as I said - and you basically said too - those 'not very good young players' were as good and could contirbute like those expensive 'older players'. Sort of like Darren Gibson, who I think is an average player - but he plays once in a while for Manure. That's all I'm saying ....

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255905#msg1255905 date=1295359323]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255897#msg1255897 date=1295359009]
Jesus, it's already been proven he's given lots of players chances, El Zhar and Ngog are the obvious ones. They weren't good enough, that's not to say the older players he bought were good enough either. But the vast majority of young players we had were not good enough.
[/quote]

He gave a lot of sub appearances (as per Binny the Statto).

But as I said - and you basically said too - those 'not very good young players' were as good and could contirbute like those expensive 'older players'. Sort of like Darren Gibson, who I think is an average player - but he plays once in a while for Manure. That's all I'm saying ....
[/quote]

Gibson only really played in cups until this season and he's been knocking at the door in Utd for a few seasons. I'd say his career chances would parallel Spearing's under Rafa.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Gibson, as per Wikipedia (so I don't know how accurate):

08-09 / 3 EPL apperances, 3 'Cup' appearances, 6 League Cup appearances, 2 'Europe' appearances
09-10 / 15 EPL apperances, 1 'Cup' appearances, 3 League Cup appearances, 4 'Europe' appearances

Maybe it's a bad comparison because he's a far better player than Spearing (whom I really wasn't comparing him too). However, it says something that he got 15 appearances in the LEAGUE when he's not nearly there as a player.

Oh well, I think we all know where we stand.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255923#msg1255923 date=1295360401]
Gibson, as per Wikipedia (so I don't know how accurate):

08-09 / 3 EPL apperances, 3 'Cup' appearances, 6 League Cup appearances, 2 'Europe' appearances
09-10 / 15 EPL apperances, 1 'Cup' appearances, 3 League Cup appearances, 4 'Europe' appearances

Maybe it's a bad comparison because he's a far better player than Spearing (whom I really wasn't comparing him too). However, it says something that he got 15 appearances in the LEAGUE when he's not nearly there as a player.

Oh well, I think we all know where we stand.
[/quote]

Are those starts LTW?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255927#msg1255927 date=1295360635]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255923#msg1255923 date=1295360401]
Gibson, as per Wikipedia (so I don't know how accurate):

08-09 / 3 EPL apperances, 3 'Cup' appearances, 6 League Cup appearances, 2 'Europe' appearances
09-10 / 15 EPL apperances, 1 'Cup' appearances, 3 League Cup appearances, 4 'Europe' appearances

Maybe it's a bad comparison because he's a far better player than Spearing (whom I really wasn't comparing him too). However, it says something that he got 15 appearances in the LEAGUE when he's not nearly there as a player.

Oh well, I think we all know where we stand.
[/quote]

Are those starts LTW?
[/quote]

I highly doubt it (it didn't break it down on wikipedia). But I somehow doubt Spearing has made 23 first team apperances (starts or subs) in his career at Anfield (which is why I said it's not a good comparison as Gibson is a better player).

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255886#msg1255886 date=1295358649]
So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that. I think on the whole he did pretty well, and I think he will leave us a few decent young players which will save us money too. He certainly made more of an effort to produce players than some of this predecessors(but then again the game is very different now), and was unlucky not to get lucky with a Carragher, Gerrard, Fowler etc. which would have meant he would be looked upon a lot more favourably.
[/quote]

It looks like you have missed this part of Keni's post..

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.

LTW responded highlighting that and you have again gone back to using number of appearances as some sort of vindicative point. While Bunny has highlighted the problems on why using number of appearance is not the right way to do this.

If we are going to go in circles and miss the point, there is not much point in carrying on....is there?

 

[kingjulian]

Gibson, by the way, is rubbish and will never make it as a player in the top league. There is not a lot between Gibson and Spearing as far as their ability goes.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255933#msg1255933 date=1295361204]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255886#msg1255886 date=1295358649]
So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that. I think on the whole he did pretty well, and I think he will leave us a few decent young players which will save us money too. He certainly made more of an effort to produce players than some of this predecessors(but then again the game is very different now), and was unlucky not to get lucky with a Carragher, Gerrard, Fowler etc. which would have meant he would be looked upon a lot more favourably.
[/quote]

It looks like you have missed this part of Keni's post..

If you look back down the years, we've seen money badly wasted when we could've looked at the players already at the club to help with the depth of the squad. That is and has always been one of the main criticisms of Rafa's reign. He made far too many sideways moves and incremental improvements for large sums of money leaving him incapable of signing the more expensive players he wanted. This strategy worked whilst the players brought in were on the whole of comparable or slightly better quality, but the Keane summer showed what happens when you get it wrong.

LTW responded highlighting that and you have again gone back to using number of appearances as some sort of vindicative point. While Bunny has highlighted the problems on why using number of appearance is not the right way to do this.

If we are going to go in circles and miss the point, there is not much point in carrying on....is there?
[/quote]

LTW has just highlighted in regards Gibson. I agree with most of what Keni has said and what you've said, in fact I've said much the same. I just don't agree with what LTW is saying.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255935#msg1255935 date=1295361303]
Gibson, by the way, is rubbish and will never make it as a player in the top league. There is not a lot between Gibson and Spearing as far as their ability goes.
[/quote]

From what I've seen of Gibson & Spearing, and it's limited, I think Gibson is a better player. But they're both nothing special - capable squaddies at best.

Gerry - I've basically said what Julian and Keni have said ...

 

[kingjulian]

Aye Jerry....i'll let LTW fight his corner. It seems i'm misinterpreting him and you..


Edit:

Just wanted to find out if you would object to this.

I think it was an error in policy on the part of Rafa that lead to

So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

it is not just a problem of lack of proper personnel (youth players). It was a bit of both. We needed to make improvement on both sides of the youth development. i.e get better players and also use them and develop them better.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255942#msg1255942 date=1295361675]
Aye Jerry....i'll let LTW fight his corner. It seems i'm misinterpreting him and you..
[/quote]

Thanks mate but you've 'interpreted' me fine ...

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Ok basically what I'm saying is the vast majority of youths weren't good enough and plenty were given a chance but none impressed, and lots of the signings weren't good enough. If the youths were good enough they would have been given more of a chance, but given they weren't good enough, the decision to play established internationals instead was understandable(not that Voronin etc were good enough). If we had been lucky enough to get a Carragher or Gerrard to come through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255942#msg1255942 date=1295361675]
Aye Jerry....i'll let LTW fight his corner. It seems i'm misinterpreting him and you..


Edit:

Just wanted to find out if you would object to this.

I think it was an error in policy on the part of Rafa that lead to

So all you're saying its that Rafa might have made a few mistakes with one or two young players? Ok, I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

it is not just a problem of lack of proper personnel (youth players). It was a bit of both. We needed to make improvement on both sides of the youth development. i.e get better players and also use them and develop them better.
[/quote]

I think the main problem is the lack of good players, not the way we've developed them(although that may be an issue too, it's almost impossible to quantify it)

 

[Oncy]

Heh. Classic SCM debate there.

Ive skimmed some of it, but this point has probably been made already.
Rafa didnt give youth a chance when he came in simply because our academy was utter shite and produced nothing. There were huge divides between the acadamy and Melwood and it didnt function in any way shape or form as a supply chain.
To give him his due, he gave the Mellors, Le Tallecs and Spearings a shot but they werent good enough, he also signed young players like Lucas, Xabi, Reina etc.

But the point is he KNEW it wasnt working. He KNEW he couldnt promote the youth we had and strived to change that in every way.
A youth setup isnt something you stumble upon, it takes YEARS to get right. It takes years and millions and luck to get a supply chain of young players coming through. Rafa was lumbered with a failing system that produced two bits of fuck all with the exception of a once a decade player of undoubted quality that we stumbled upon. What he has left us with is a network of world class scouts and a system of promotion from acadamy to Melwood with the likes of:
Mavinga
Ecclestone
Pacheco
Suso
Ince
Amoo
Wisdom
Coady
Suso
Saric
Shelvey
Bruna
Ngoo
Silva

ETC ETC. If those players who are now at the club turn out to be good enough given the millions we have invested in getting this right i have absolutely no doubt that Rafa would have given them a chance.
He didnt bring many players through in the past no. Because they were crap.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

We're talking about squad depth though Oncy, not 'Gerrard' like talent (that I think everyone agrees wasn't there) ... That's what I think the debate is mostly about ...

Insua vs Dossena
Warnock vs Aurelio
Hammill vs whoever
Mellor vs Voronin

Our youth wasn't 'that' bad that they couldn't do what the aforementioned did (and saved us millions in the process).

 

[Avmenon]

Come on,Wiz...you're talking from hindsight.

Those old pros look like shit now, but none of the youngsters were a better option then.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255966#msg1255966 date=1295363392]
Come on,Wiz...you're talking from hindsight.

Those old pros look like shit now, but none of the youngsters were a better option then.


[/quote]

in a nutshell. also, just to point out, it seems harsh in the extreme to lump aurelio in with the rest of the cabbages. i think, all things considered, he was a good signing and a decent player.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255972#msg1255972 date=1295363940]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255966#msg1255966 date=1295363392]
Come on,Wiz...you're talking from hindsight.

Those old pros look like shit now, but none of the youngsters were a better option then.


[/quote]

in a nutshell. also, just to point out, it seems harsh in the extreme to lump aurelio in with the rest of the cabbages. i think, all things considered, he was a good signing and a decent player.
[/quote]

agreed, pete.

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1255956#msg1255956 date=1295362605]
Heh. Classic SCM debate there.

Ive skimmed some of it, but this point has probably been made already.
Rafa didnt give youth a chance when he came in simply because our academy was utter shite and produced nothing. There were huge divides between the acadamy and Melwood and it didnt function in any way shape or form as a supply chain.
To give him his due, he gave the Mellors, Le Tallecs and Spearings a shot but they werent good enough, he also signed young players like Lucas, Xabi, Reina etc.

But the point is he KNEW it wasnt working. He KNEW he couldnt promote the youth we had and strived to change that in every way.
A youth setup isnt something you stumble upon, it takes YEARS to get right. It takes years and millions and luck to get a supply chain of young players coming through. Rafa was lumbered with a failing system that produced two bits of fuck all with the exception of a once a decade player of undoubted quality that we stumbled upon. What he has left us with is a network of world class scouts and a system of promotion from acadamy to Melwood with the likes of:
Mavinga
Ecclestone
Pacheco
Suso
Ince
Amoo
Wisdom
Coady
Suso
Saric
Shelvey
Bruna
Ngoo
Silva

ETC ETC. If those players who are now at the club turn out to be good enough given the millions we have invested in getting this right i have absolutely no doubt that Rafa would have given them a chance.
He didnt bring many players through in the past no. Because they were crap.
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Excellent summary Oncy.