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Jesus...Suso....

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[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255972#msg1255972 date=1295363940]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255966#msg1255966 date=1295363392]
Come on,Wiz...you're talking from hindsight.

Those old pros look like shit now, but none of the youngsters were a better option then.


[/quote]

in a nutshell. also, just to point out, it seems harsh in the extreme to lump aurelio in with the rest of the cabbages. i think, all things considered, he was a good signing and a decent player.
[/quote]

Pete - I don't think he's a bad player. He's a solid player.

Avvy - This seemed to be the norm though for 6 years ... That's the issue. We had quite a few duds whose position could have easily been taken by young, hungry 'satisfactory talent level' 20-22 year olds ...
 
Like Ngog, Lucas and Babel, and before them Agger, Sissoko and Reina who were all between 20 and 22 when they were signed and started getting appearances. They're all young players, who weren't proven before they came, that established themselves under Rafa.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there was more.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255997#msg1255997 date=1295364638]
Like Ngog, Lucas and Babel, and before them Agger, Sissoko and Reina who were all between 20 and 22 when they were signed and started getting appearances. They're all young players, who weren't proven before they came, that established themselves under Rafa.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there was more.
[/quote]

I thought Reina was a bit older ...

Isn't that though about 30-35 million worth of 'talent'? I thought our debate was about bringing up some of the kids that didn't cost us a fortune to take the spot of these freebies etc ...

At least those you mention (bar Reina b/c I hope he retires a red) will all make us nice profit when sold.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255987#msg1255987 date=1295364331]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255972#msg1255972 date=1295363940]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255966#msg1255966 date=1295363392]
Come on,Wiz...you're talking from hindsight.

Those old pros look like shit now, but none of the youngsters were a better option then.


[/quote]

in a nutshell. also, just to point out, it seems harsh in the extreme to lump aurelio in with the rest of the cabbages. i think, all things considered, he was a good signing and a decent player.
[/quote]

Pete - I don't think he's a bad player. He's a solid player.

Avvy - This seemed to be the norm though for 6 years ... That's the issue. We had quite a few duds whose position could have easily been taken by young, hungry 'satisfactory talent level' 20-22 year olds ...
[/quote]No they couldnt. Because those young hungry 20-22 year olds werent good enough.
If your argument is that Rafa signed a lot of mid range duds, you will get no argument from me. But to imply he did that at the expense of promoting youth is daft when we now know that none of that self same pool of youth who he relatively ignored is/was or ever will be good enough to take the places of those self same mediocre flops.
There are a lot of critiscisms that can be laid at Rafa's door ignoring youth is NOT one of them, unless of course you mean by ignoring youth 'Not playing Plessis (eg)' rather than investing millions upon millions of pounds and man hours into trying to make Liverpool a club that can find, identify, nurture and produce young proper talented players. Lets not forget that at the culmination of Rafa's time in sole power we finally attracted some talent that are normally snapped up by Arsenal, Manchester city, Chelsea, Tottenham in Shelvey, Wilson, Sterling etc.
Rafa left a legacy with any luck that will far outweigh the sour taste some of his more deranged decisions left in the mouth. And that legacy is PRECISELY investing in youth.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256081#msg1256081 date=1295368272]
That said i liked Pongolle and think he could have been a good squaddie here.
[/quote]

i agree with that. I hated the fact we sold him. He would have excelled on the left of our 4-5-1 with rafa
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255737#msg1255737 date=1295352626]
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=43540.msg1255550#msg1255550 date=1295343299]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255529#msg1255529 date=1295340265]
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=43540.msg1255417#msg1255417 date=1295310841]
He could be outrages! Thank fuck Benitez isnt here to bury him and then send him on loan to the conference or something!!!
[/quote]

Can you name one player who Benitez sent on loan who is now doing well and playing at a better level?

I'll bet you can't. Its this kind of pathetic, ill thought out jibe against people that irks me the most. Why did his name even need to be brought into this discussion?

Youth players; some of them make it, most of them don't. That's not a Benitez thing, that's the case at pretty much every football club.
[/quote]


It was just a general statement, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it would have been a legitimate concern of mine under previous management. Ok maybe not being sent to the conference but somewhere else perhaps.
Compared to other clubs, the scum, arsenal etc, we never really blooded youngsters under Benitez. The reserves under Benitez seemed more like a quick fix for turning fees of under a million into profit. And ill bring him into it if I want to, Whether you think its knee jerk, ill thought out or whatever the fact is that Suso does stand a better chance under someone like Kenny of breaking into the first team.
Oh and your first line, is that disagreeing or agreeing or what the fuck. One player thats playing at a better level than what? The reserves where he was kept or the first team? I dont understand. Maybe you should be a tad clearer when constructing your knee jerk ill thought out questions! However if its loans and benitez you want to talk about I know that if you were loaned out under Rafa it was pretty much the kiss of death for your liverpool career!
Plus everything le tallac said!!! Its not Rafa bashing either, its just being happier with the attitude of the current management towards promoting youth. Jesus, some people are so touchy!
[/quote]

Seeing as you are being so obtuse about my "ill thought out reaction" to your post I'll spell it out to you.

Name any player who Benitez sent out on loan who has been successful with any other club at a higher level than LFC are currently playing at? ie the reason he sent them out on loan was that they weren't good enough for our first team. The fact that none of them have "made it" anywhere else apart from at clubs like Barnsley (Hammill) and Forest (Anderson) to name but two examples shows that he was right to let them go on loan.

We could criticise Benitez for bringing the "talent" in the first place, but as I've alluded to previously, not every player who comes through the youth team can or will be the new Fowler or Gerrard etc.

Oh and by your own admission, your initial post was a bit of an exaggeration, so perhaps that explains my "ill thought out post".

And LTW, not all people who defend Benitez are RCDNWer's, that's a lazy tag and I expected better from you...
[/quote]

An exaggeration as in a bit of a joke, off the cuff and not intended for someone to pathetically pick an argument with ! The original post was about how good I thought suso could be. Outrages is what i said. After that it was just an opinion, not my fault you took offence to it, l still reckon he stands a better chance under the current management of making the first team. And everybody can pull facts out of their arses to disprove or prove how many chances Rafa gave youth (again, im not picking on Rafa) but the fact is that the type of player suso is would stand a better chance of being blooded at the likes of Arsenal than here under Rafa, because wenger isnt afraid to give young skillful players a chance! Not to hard to understand, just someones opinion.
And as for an answer to your question. One player who is currently playing at a higher level who was loaned out under benitez. Would Danny Guthrie do? Newcastle technically are playing at a higher level than us this year being 4 places above us in the league currently! 😛

Edit: Ok guthrie hasnt been successful..but a least i named one....even if i was a bit cheeky about it!!
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
No they couldnt. Because those young hungry 20-22 year olds werent good enough.
If your argument is that Rafa signed a lot of mid range duds, you will get no argument from me. But to imply he did that at the expense of promoting youth is daft when we now know that none of that self same pool of youth who he relatively ignored is/was or ever will be good enough to take the places of those self same mediocre flops. [/quote]

Wait - so you think Aurelio is that much better than Warnock? Or that Voronin provided more than Mellor did? Or that Jova did more than FSP? Or Insua over Dossena? And there are more examples ... You've seen Ross's stats wrt our wage bill ... That could have been avoided quite easily if it weren't for these 'mediocre flops'

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
Lets not forget that at the culmination of Rafa's time in sole power we finally attracted some talent that are normally snapped up by Arsenal, Manchester city, Chelsea, Tottenham in Shelvey, Wilson, Sterling etc.
Rafa left a legacy with any luck that will far outweigh the sour taste some of his more deranged decisions left in the mouth. And that legacy is PRECISELY investing in youth.
[/quote]

Yes I know, I mentioned this earlier. Sheesh, this board has become like Brendan. Focus on one little point, and attack while ignoring what I've said.

Whatever, I'll wait for Gerry & Asbo to slam me for my Rafa hatred etc.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256184#msg1256184 date=1295372149]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
No they couldnt. Because those young hungry 20-22 year olds werent good enough.
If your argument is that Rafa signed a lot of mid range duds, you will get no argument from me. But to imply he did that at the expense of promoting youth is daft when we now know that none of that self same pool of youth who he relatively ignored is/was or ever will be good enough to take the places of those self same mediocre flops. [/quote]

Wait - so you think Aurelio is that much better than Warnock? Or that Voronin provided more than Mellor did? Or that Jova did more than FSP? Or Insua over Dossena? And there are more examples ... You've seen Ross's stats wrt our wage bill ... That could have been avoided quite easily if it weren't for these 'mediocre flops'

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
Lets not forget that at the culmination of Rafa's time in sole power we finally attracted some talent that are normally snapped up by Arsenal, Manchester city, Chelsea, Tottenham in Shelvey, Wilson, Sterling etc.
Rafa left a legacy with any luck that will far outweigh the sour taste some of his more deranged decisions left in the mouth. And that legacy is PRECISELY investing in youth.
[/quote]

Yes I know, I mentioned this earlier. Sheesh, this board has become like Brendan. Focus on one little point, and attack while ignoring what I've said.

Whatever, I'll wait for Gerry & Asbo to slam me for my Rafa hatred etc.
[/quote]

You Rafa hater!
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256206#msg1256206 date=1295373131]
ha ha - from 'yossi lover' to 'rafa hater' ... Man how my name has been sullied.
[/quote]

I'd back you on Yossi, he left to soon for me
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43540.msg1256209#msg1256209 date=1295373195]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256206#msg1256206 date=1295373131]
ha ha - from 'yossi lover' to 'rafa hater' ... Man how my name has been sullied.
[/quote]

I'd back you on Yossi, he left to soon for me
[/quote]

I thought we were getting a better deal (i.e. Cole for Yossi essentially).

I erred.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256184#msg1256184 date=1295372149]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
No they couldnt. Because those young hungry 20-22 year olds werent good enough.
If your argument is that Rafa signed a lot of mid range duds, you will get no argument from me. But to imply he did that at the expense of promoting youth is daft when we now know that none of that self same pool of youth who he relatively ignored is/was or ever will be good enough to take the places of those self same mediocre flops. [/quote]

Wait - so you think Aurelio is that much better than Warnock? Or that Voronin provided more than Mellor did? Or that Jova did more than FSP? Or Insua over Dossena? And there are more examples ... You've seen Ross's stats wrt our wage bill ... That could have been avoided quite easily if it weren't for these 'mediocre flops'

No. Which is precisely why i said he has signed a lot of mid range duds.
 
PS-Warnock, Mellor and Insua are shit. So i dont see your point.

But please dont explain it i dont care. You think giving youth a chance is playing a shit player rather than signing another shit player, i think its investing fortunes into turning round a youth system that has failed.
Lets just agree to disagree.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256265#msg1256265 date=1295377129]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256184#msg1256184 date=1295372149]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256079#msg1256079 date=1295368191]
No they couldnt. Because those young hungry 20-22 year olds werent good enough.
If your argument is that Rafa signed a lot of mid range duds, you will get no argument from me. But to imply he did that at the expense of promoting youth is daft when we now know that none of that self same pool of youth who he relatively ignored is/was or ever will be good enough to take the places of those self same mediocre flops. [/quote]

Wait - so you think Aurelio is that much better than Warnock? Or that Voronin provided more than Mellor did? Or that Jova did more than FSP? Or Insua over Dossena? And there are more examples ... You've seen Ross's stats wrt our wage bill ... That could have been avoided quite easily if it weren't for these 'mediocre flops'[/quote]

No. Which is precisely why i said he has signed a lot of mid range duds.[/quote]



So how is my point not valid? Had he used those players, who were equal to those duds, we would have saved millions and not gained/lost that much quality ... I know it's hindsight but he didn't do this in 6 years really - bar Ngog really (who was a cheap buy and has contributed - though some hate him, some don't)
 
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256267#msg1256267 date=1295377229]
PS-Warnock, Mellor and Insua are shit. So i dont see your point.

But please dont explain it i dont care. You think giving youth a chance is playing a shit player rather than signing another shit player, i think its investing fortunes into turning round a youth system that has failed.
Lets just agree to disagree.
[/quote]

The 'I don't care' line ... Sheesh ... Warnock, Mellor and Insua may be shit (or average for Warnock) but they would have saved us x0,000,000 had we used them instead of Aurelio, Voronin & Dossena. yes, but hey, they're duds and that's legit b/c Rafa did his job in revamping our youth set up.

Why can't youth a chance be a integration of both the ideas? Invest & revamp your youth system (like I said in MY FIRST POST that rafa did) and also ensure you don't waste your money on expensive duds (which you agree with) buy giving your 'decent talent, potential' lads a proper go.

... and considering you went on and on (with me too probably) about giving Pacheco a go last year and this year . Oh well, at least we have an expensive dud (or two) to ensure he can ply his trade n the reserve leagues.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1256274#msg1256274 date=1295377523]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256267#msg1256267 date=1295377229]
PS-Warnock, Mellor and Insua are shit. So i dont see your point.

But please dont explain it i dont care. You think giving youth a chance is playing a shit player rather than signing another shit player, i think its investing fortunes into turning round a youth system that has failed.
Lets just agree to disagree.
[/quote]

The 'I don't care' line ... Sheesh ... Warnock, Mellor and Insua may be shit (or average for Warnock) but they would have saved us x0,000,000 had we used them instead of Aurelio, Voronin & Dossena. yes, but hey, they're duds and that's legit b/c Rafa did his job in revamping our youth set up.

Why can't youth a chance be a integration of both the ideas? Invest & revamp your youth system (like I said in MY FIRST POST that rafa did) and also ensure you don't waste your money on expensive duds (which you agree with).

... and considering you went on and on (with me too probably) about giving Pacheco a go last year and this year . Oh well, at least we have an expensive dud (or two) to ensure he can ply his trade n the reserve leagues.
[/quote]I really dont care though, im not being cool, i just dont really care about all this that much.
The players we had in the acadamy werent good enough. Thats why they didnt play.
The end.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256272#msg1256272 date=1295377434]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
[/quote]

Well in 6 months it's about half a mill. Plus we can still sell him.

I do miss Yossi though.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1256278#msg1256278 date=1295377730]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256272#msg1256272 date=1295377434]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
[/quote]

Well in 6 months it's about half a mill. Plus we can still sell him.

I do miss Yossi though.
[/quote]Eh? 6 months Half a mill? How little do you think he earns? If he is on 100k a week its already cost us 2.8m to pay him for his amazing contributions so far.
If NESV have any sense, he, Jovanovic, Agger, Poulsen and Kuntch will be first out the fucking door.
 
Someone-is-Wrong-on-the-Internet.jpg
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256282#msg1256282 date=1295377898]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1256278#msg1256278 date=1295377730]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256272#msg1256272 date=1295377434]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
[/quote]

Well in 6 months it's about half a mill. Plus we can still sell him.

I do miss Yossi though.
[/quote]Eh? 6 months Half a mill? How little do you think he earns? If he is on 100k a week its already cost us 2.8m to pay him for his amazing contributions so far.
If NESV have any sense, he, Jovanovic, Agger, Poulsen and Kuntch will be first out the fucking door.
[/quote]

I think you might be missing out on the wages Benny was getting though. The only extra is what we're paying Cole on top of that. I think Benny was on as much as 75k. So it's only 25k difference, which is about 5 years wages. If Joes here 5 years he'll have been a success. Well I'd like to hope so.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=43540.msg1256280#msg1256280 date=1295377805]
Serious question, has aurelio ever had a REALLY disasterous game at left back?
[/quote]

I don't think so - he's been solid. He's just more fragile than Agger.
 
Doc - I stand by my words - Oncey is cool.

Gerry - I think you're right re: Yossi's wages. I will be amazed though if Joe Cole is here for 5 years.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1256286#msg1256286 date=1295378221]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256282#msg1256282 date=1295377898]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1256278#msg1256278 date=1295377730]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256272#msg1256272 date=1295377434]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
[/quote]

Well in 6 months it's about half a mill. Plus we can still sell him.

I do miss Yossi though.
[/quote]Eh? 6 months Half a mill? How little do you think he earns? If he is on 100k a week its already cost us 2.8m to pay him for his amazing contributions so far.
If NESV have any sense, he, Jovanovic, Agger, Poulsen and Kuntch will be first out the fucking door.
[/quote]

I think you might be missing out on the wages Benny was getting though. The only extra is what we're paying Cole on top of that. I think Benny was on as much as 75k. So it's only 25k difference, which is about 5 years wages. If Joes here 5 years he'll have been a success. Well I'd like to hope so.
[/quote]

Saved my ass Gerry bro *does elaborate hand shake thing*
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1256291#msg1256291 date=1295378547]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1256286#msg1256286 date=1295378221]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256282#msg1256282 date=1295377898]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1256278#msg1256278 date=1295377730]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43540.msg1256272#msg1256272 date=1295377434]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43540.msg1256269#msg1256269 date=1295377308]
I rated Yossi and didn't want him to go, but I thought we were definitely getting a better player (Cole's best in the past was better than anything I've seen from Yossi) and it hasn't worked out that way. I still reckon Cole's a talented player and can do someone a good job, but it doesn't look like it'll be us now.

Oh well, at least we got some cash out of the Yossi deal.
[/quote]Not really.
We got 6m. Lets say we gave Cole a 2m signing on fee, the other 4m will have been eaten up by his huge wages in about 6 months.
So realistically we got rid of Yossi, signed Cole who we will now loan out, so effectively we lost Yossi and have no money to show for it.
[/quote]

Well in 6 months it's about half a mill. Plus we can still sell him.

I do miss Yossi though.
[/quote]Eh? 6 months Half a mill? How little do you think he earns? If he is on 100k a week its already cost us 2.8m to pay him for his amazing contributions so far.
If NESV have any sense, he, Jovanovic, Agger, Poulsen and Kuntch will be first out the fucking door.
[/quote]

I think you might be missing out on the wages Benny was getting though. The only extra is what we're paying Cole on top of that. I think Benny was on as much as 75k. So it's only 25k difference, which is about 5 years wages. If Joes here 5 years he'll have been a success. Well I'd like to hope so.
[/quote]

Saved my ass Gerry bro *does elaborate hand shake thing*
[/quote]Very good point Gerry. I never thought of that.
Doc.......you jammy cunt. You hadnt a clue.
 
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