Jesus...Suso....

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

Bang on.

 

[King Binny]

I agree with KingJulian there. Classic example was Plessis. The one thing I recall about him was the shock debut given to him against Arsenal and from then on heard nothing much about him nor seen anymore progress. Granted, there were rumours about his poor(er) displays at reserve team level and I'm not saying he's good enough or will be, but how do we define giving youngsters a chance? Odd game here and there? I don't expect an instant run of games (barring his performance), but at least he's gotta be more or less in the 1st team squad mix, shouldn't he? If he's basically called upon once in a blue moon, how else is he gonna improve and stake his claim other than during normal day training?

Ehmmm, I'm no statto, I'm a copy and paste guy who lacks originality. :-[ With regards to El Zhar, it is notable that out of his 21 league games for Liverpool, 19 were substitute appearances. An even more accurate gauge may be mins played (which unfortunately I have no records of), but given Rafa's 'resistance' to make early changes, I think it'll be save to say on average he has 10+ mins to impress. Given that we'll probably we struggling or holding on to a lead, how ample it is for a player to impress remains to be seen....

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I should add, that you can obviously lay some of the blame for the lack of quality at Rafa's door, as he was the one employing the people that were running it. I do believe he started to get it right in his last two years though, and hopefully that will show to be the case.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43540.msg1255770#msg1255770 date=1295353956]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255758#msg1255758 date=1295353618]
Well said Jules & Keni ...

Jules sums it up nicely:

You have got to be as talented as Gerrard to make it through....that doesn't happen very often. But promoting regular squadies using youth policy usually happens more often than it happens in our club. Rafa takes a huge share of that blame...

[/quote]

Kelly has made it through, but he does seem exceptional.

Liverpool have a long history of players making it through Fowler Owen Gerrard McManamen, BUT ITS MAYBE 1-2 a DECADE that make it!

Kelly is the first player now since way back, its probably the same ratio????
[/quote]

The exceptional players will make it through, i have no questions about that.

I'm talking about a player like Warnock. Do you think, he would have made it through and held a position as the number 2 left back under Rafa? Hammill for example would have developed into exactly the kind of player Warnock was, as he has done now, and would have been useful squadie who offers power and pace. If he was given the chance at Liverpool. Same with Guthrie. Instead we always chose to spend 7 million pounds on a player and justified it as a "good squad purchase".

I don't even think Carragher (who despite impressing with a goal on debut was not really everyones cup of tea during the formative years) would have made it through under Rafa.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Binny link=topic=43540.msg1255788#msg1255788 date=1295354455]
I agree with KingJulian there. Classic example was Plessis. The one thing I recall about him was the shock debut given to him against Arsenal and from then on heard nothing much about him nor seen anymore progress. Granted, there were rumours about his poor(er) displays at reserve team level and I'm not saying he's good enough or will be, but how do we define giving youngsters a chance? Odd game here and there? I don't expect an instant run of games (barring his performance), but at least he's gotta be more or less in the 1st team squad mix, shouldn't he? If he's basically called upon every now and then, how else is he gonna improve and stalk his claim other than during normal day training?

Ehmmm, I'm no statto, I'm a copy and paste guy who lacks originality. :-[ With regards to El Zhar, it is notable that out of his 21 league games for Liverpool, 19 were substitute appearances. An even more accurate gauge may be mins played (which unfortunately I have no records of), but given Rafa's 'resistance' to make early changes, I think it'll be save to say on average he has 10+ mins to impress. Given that we'll probably we struggling or holding on to a lead, how ample is it for a player to impress remains to be seen....
[/quote]

Good points made in there.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255790#msg1255790 date=1295354558]

I don't even think Carragher (who despite impressing with a goal on debut was not really everyones cup of tea during the formative years) would have made it through under Rafa.
[/quote]

I suspect that was because he started as a DM at a time when Liverpool didn't employ a DM as such and therefore he was seen a little bit as a negative aspect to the side. Goal scoring debut aside.

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255790#msg1255790 date=1295354558]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43540.msg1255770#msg1255770 date=1295353956]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255758#msg1255758 date=1295353618]
Well said Jules & Keni ...

Jules sums it up nicely:

You have got to be as talented as Gerrard to make it through....that doesn't happen very often. But promoting regular squadies using youth policy usually happens more often than it happens in our club. Rafa takes a huge share of that blame...

[/quote]

Kelly has made it through, but he does seem exceptional.

Liverpool have a long history of players making it through Fowler Owen Gerrard McManamen, BUT ITS MAYBE 1-2 a DECADE that make it!

Kelly is the first player now since way back, its probably the same ratio????
[/quote]

The exceptional players will make it through, i have no questions about that.

I'm talking about a player like Warnock. Do you think, he would have made it through and held a position as the number 2 left back under Rafa? Hammill for example would have developed into exactly the kind of player Warnock was, as he has done now, and would have been useful squadie who offers power and pace. If he was given the chance at Liverpool. Same with Guthrie. Instead we always chose to spend 7 million pounds on a player and justified it as a "good squad purchase".

I don't even think Carragher (who despite impressing with a goal on debut was not really everyones cup of tea during the formative years) would have made it through under Rafa.
[/quote]

Nonscense!

Kelly 'made it through' under Rafa, only injuries stopped his full breakthrough

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255771#msg1255771 date=1295353993]
Everyone is a little bit right and talking a bit of pish too.
[/quote]

That could be SCM's catchphrase.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43540.msg1255805#msg1255805 date=1295354886]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255771#msg1255771 date=1295353993]
Everyone is a little bit right and talking a bit of pish too.
[/quote]

That could be SCM's catchphrase.
[/quote]

Should be on the screen header.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255803#msg1255803 date=1295354849]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉
[/quote]

shut it you RCDNW muppet.

 

[jan]

[quote author=Binny link=topic=43540.msg1255788#msg1255788 date=1295354455]
I agree with KingJulian there. Classic example was Plessis. The one thing I recall about him was the shock debut given to him against Arsenal and from then on heard nothing much about him nor seen anymore progress. Granted, there were rumours about his poor(er) displays at reserve team level and I'm not saying he's good enough or will be, but how do we define giving youngsters a chance? Odd game here and there? I don't expect an instant run of games (barring his performance), but at least he's gotta be more or less in the 1st team squad mix, shouldn't he? If he's basically called upon every now and then, how else is he gonna improve and stalk his claim other than during normal day training?
[/quote]

I know you were talking about youngsters in general but I have to point out that Plessis played a few times after that and didn't even remotely resemble a footballer, that's how shit he was.

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255807#msg1255807 date=1295354957]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43540.msg1255805#msg1255805 date=1295354886]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255771#msg1255771 date=1295353993]
Everyone is a little bit right and talking a bit of pish too.
[/quote]

That could be SCM's catchphrase.
[/quote]

Should be on the screen header.
[/quote]

and gentle good natured ribbing

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

If he was here for two years, i'd buy that excuse. It wears very thin when you consider he was here for 6 and he bought more young players than any other manager in the history of LFC...

In fact, us buying a young starlet was a running joke on online forums over the years..."in 5 years we will have the best team in the world" etc...

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255803#msg1255803 date=1295354849]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉
[/quote]

The poster who wholly blames all our woes on Benitez is probably the same type who says he's wholly blameless.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Binny link=topic=43540.msg1255788#msg1255788 date=1295354455]
I agree with KingJulian there. Classic example was Plessis. The one thing I recall about him was the shock debut given to him against Arsenal and from then on heard nothing much about him nor seen anymore progress. Granted, there were rumours about his poor(er) displays at reserve team level and I'm not saying he's good enough or will be, but how do we define giving youngsters a chance? Odd game here and there? I don't expect an instant run of games (barring his performance), but at least he's gotta be more or less in the 1st team squad mix, shouldn't he? If he's basically called upon every now and then, how else is he gonna improve and stalk his claim other than during normal day training?

Ehmmm, I'm no statto, I'm a copy and paste guy who lacks originality. :-[ With regards to El Zhar, it is notable that out of his 21 league games for Liverpool, 19 were substitute appearances. An even more accurate gauge may be mins played (which unfortunately I have no records of), but given Rafa's 'resistance' to make early changes, I think it'll be save to say on average he has 10+ mins to impress. Given that we'll probably we struggling or holding on to a lead, how ample is it for a player to impress remains to be seen....
[/quote]

Bang on.

Warnock vs Aurelio?

Hammill vs Jova?

There are many examples like this ...

We filled our squad with expensive signings when we had 'similar' talent in the reserve level. That is the complaint, not the finding of Gerrard Mk II.

Spion - I think the jibes are wrong. Everyone here has mentioned Rafa's important role in building up the youth system ... It's easier to ignore all his shortcomings though due to the non-sensical abuse showered at him the last two years.

Again, well put Jules:

If he was here for two years, i'd buy that excuse. It wears very thin when you consider he was here for 6 and he bought more young players than any other manager in the history of LFC...

In fact, us buying young player was a running joke on online forums over the years..."in 5 years we will have the best team in the world" etc...

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255814#msg1255814 date=1295355030]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255803#msg1255803 date=1295354849]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉
[/quote]

The poster who wholly blames all our woes on Benitez is probably the same type who says he's wholly blameless.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks he's totally blameless.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255818#msg1255818 date=1295355133]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255814#msg1255814 date=1295355030]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255803#msg1255803 date=1295354849]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉
[/quote]

The poster who wholly blames all our woes on Benitez is probably the same type who says he's wholly blameless.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks he's totally blameless.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks he's totally to blame.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255820#msg1255820 date=1295355196]


I don't think anyone thinks he's totally to blame.
[/quote]

Neither do I. So can we stop all this RCDNR/W nonsense.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255818#msg1255818 date=1295355133]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255814#msg1255814 date=1295355030]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255803#msg1255803 date=1295354849]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

But surely Peter its just easier to blame Benitez for all our current woes, as we did Houllier before him... 😉
[/quote]

The poster who wholly blames all our woes on Benitez is probably the same type who says he's wholly blameless.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks he's totally blameless.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks he is to be blamed for everything either.

LTW made a very valid criticism and was jumped on....but we have the usual Rafa apologists playing victim here.

 

[King Binny]

[quote author=jan link=topic=43540.msg1255811#msg1255811 date=1295354989]
[quote author=Binny link=topic=43540.msg1255788#msg1255788 date=1295354455]
I agree with KingJulian there. Classic example was Plessis. The one thing I recall about him was the shock debut given to him against Arsenal and from then on heard nothing much about him nor seen anymore progress. Granted, there were rumours about his poor(er) displays at reserve team level and I'm not saying he's good enough or will be, but how do we define giving youngsters a chance? Odd game here and there? I don't expect an instant run of games (barring his performance), but at least he's gotta be more or less in the 1st team squad mix, shouldn't he? If he's basically called upon every now and then, how else is he gonna improve and stalk his claim other than during normal day training?
[/quote]

I know you were talking about youngsters in general but I have to point out that Plessis played a few times after that and didn't even remotely resemble a footballer, that's how shit he was.
[/quote]

Yeah, I get your point mate, my main point is the frequency of play and building upon of the debut. Its 'funny' if you believe a guy is good enough to be given a debut then suddenly throw him out of your plans or just leave him aside. As mentioned, not saying he's good enough but questioning the perspective of 'giving a chance'. Kind of baffling imo - seems as if it was on impulse/ to prove a point/ without a long term plan. Another point was how statistics can be irrelevant (well, our previous managers proved it time and again in their talks, didn't they >&lt😉.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255821#msg1255821 date=1295355234]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255820#msg1255820 date=1295355196]


I don't think anyone thinks he's totally to blame.
[/quote]

Neither do I. So can we stop all this RCDNR/W nonsense.
[/quote]

This please!

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255825#msg1255825 date=1295355338]

I don't think anyone thinks he is to be blamed for everything either.

LTW made a very valid criticism and was jumped on....but we have the usual Rafa apologists playing victim here.
[/quote]

It might be valid to an extent, but when LTW went on about Kelly and others, who were obviously given a chance, he lost all credibility in his argument in my opinion. LTW never gave Rafa any recognition for what he did do for the youth. I think it's obvious that Rafa could have done more, but LTW has articulated is quite badly in my opinion.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255813#msg1255813 date=1295355006]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255798#msg1255798 date=1295354664]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255780#msg1255780 date=1295354297]
I think it's obvious that none of the young players that Rafa gave a chance to were good enough. Proven by the fact that none of them have gone onto anything, with maybe one or two debatable exceptions. It's also obvious that he wasn't ignoring youth as he has given a lot of them a run, and would probably have Kelly more games if he had been fit. He never would have put all the effort he did into the youth set up if he didn't want to give them a chance.
[/quote]

100% correct.

surely the answer's obvious? he gave a fair amount of chances to various youngsters, but could have given more. overall, it's difficult to really judge his commitment to youth because he had the misfortune (and it was misfortune) to be manager during a particularly unproductive spell for our youth system, and therefore had few opportunities of blooding young players with the quality required.
[/quote]

If he was here for two years, i'd buy that excuse. It wears very thin when you consider he was here for 6 and he bought more young players than any other manager in the history of LFC...

In fact, us buying young player was a running joke on online forums over the years..."in 5 years we will have the best team in the world" etc...
[/quote]

whatever. blame him for that if you want. wasn't there the story that he stockpiled all those foreign kids as his way of trying to build a competing academy as some sort of protest against the inadequacy of the real academy...don't know the details or how reasonable that was. tbh i find it hard to get annoyed about that because all those players were brought in for buttons. given that, the ratio of successes to failures was always going to be miniscule. i bet he wasn't far off making a profit on the lot of them though, seeing as san jose, mihaijlovic, nemeth and possibly one or two other brought in respectable fees.

the academy's only really started looking better since he got his hands on it towards the end of his reign...might be partly coincidental, but i bet not wholly.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255831#msg1255831 date=1295355489]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255825#msg1255825 date=1295355338]

I don't think anyone thinks he is to be blamed for everything either.

LTW made a very valid criticism and was jumped on....but we have the usual Rafa apologists playing victim here.
[/quote]

It might be valid to an extent, but when LTW went on about Kelly and others, who were obviously given a chance, he lost all credibility in his argument in my opinion. LTW never gave Rafa any recognition for what he did do for the youth. I think it's obvious that Rafa could have done more, but LTW has articulated is quite badly in my opinion.
[/quote]

Hmmm Gerry ... Can't tell if you're being entirely serious but let's help you out:

My first response in the thread to this discussion:

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255534#msg1255534 date=1295341092]
Spion - Rafa rarely gave any kids a chance, unless it was utterly necessary. Of course he gave Jack Robinson a debut but let's be honest, players like Pacheco, Kelly & co had no chance of seeing any time with him as a manager. Look at Daglish in 3 games - promotes talented kids (it sends a HUGE message out to the youth in the club - play well, you will get noticed) and gives them time on the pitch. I do give credit to Rafa for a) signing some of these kids b) Borello (sp?) and c) improving the youth systems here. However, he still didn't use them at all despite points a,b & c[/quote]

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255831#msg1255831 date=1295355489]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43540.msg1255825#msg1255825 date=1295355338]

I don't think anyone thinks he is to be blamed for everything either.

LTW made a very valid criticism and was jumped on....but we have the usual Rafa apologists playing victim here.
[/quote]

It might be valid to an extent, but when LTW went on about Kelly and others, who were obviously given a chance, he lost all credibility in his argument in my opinion. LTW never gave Rafa any recognition for what he did do for the youth. I think it's obvious that Rafa could have done more, but LTW has articulated is quite badly in my opinion.
[/quote]

That's quite fair.

LTW happy to take that olive branch and end this?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

However, he still didn't use them at all despite points a,b & c

He quite obviously did, as pointed out by Asbo. I don't think you're giving enough recognition to the fact that they just weren't good enough. You want him to play young players just because they're young and not because they're good enough. The players deemed good enough, like Kelly, were brought in and played when possible.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255850#msg1255850 date=1295355867]

However, he still didn't use them at all despite points a,b & c

He quite obviously did, as pointed out by Asbo. I don't think you're giving enough recognition to the fact that they just weren't good enough. You want him to play young players just because they're young and not because they're good enough. The players deemed good enough, like Kelly, were brought in and played when possible.
[/quote]

Again, you've not really read my posts ... and you complain about me articulating poorly?

Warnock vs Aurelio? Hammill vs Jova? Julian highlights other examples ... That's all we're saying ... Squad strength would NOT have been compromised too much, and we would have saved millions on transfer fees and ridiculous salaries. Voronin vs Mellor? Both scored a few goals and were average. Which cost the club more? That's my point.

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255853#msg1255853 date=1295356008]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43540.msg1255850#msg1255850 date=1295355867]

However, he still didn't use them at all despite points a,b & c

He quite obviously did, as pointed out by Asbo. I don't think you're giving enough recognition to the fact that they just weren't good enough. You want him to play young players just because they're young and not because they're good enough. The players deemed good enough, like Kelly, were brought in and played when possible.
[/quote]

Again, you've not really read my posts ... and you complain about me articulating poorly?

Warnock vs Aurelio? Hammill vs Jova? Julian highlights other examples ... That's all we're saying ... Squad strength would NOT have been compromised too much, and we would have saved millions on transfer fees and ridiculous salaries. Voronin vs Mellor? Both scored a few goals and were average. Which cost the club more? That's my point.
[/quote]

Hammil left in 2007 Jova came in 2010 on a free, how can you possibly compare the 2?

by the way one played in Barnsley in 2007 scoring 0 goals and the other was playing for Standard Liege scorin on average a goal every 2 games, again how can you compare?

lastly one has 2 under 19 caps and the other has 33 full caps?

I will back you on voronin and Mellor though, I liked mellor and did think he was let go too soon!