Jesus...Suso....
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[quote author=RolandG link=topic=43540.msg1255546#msg1255546 date=1295342684]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=43540.msg1255539#msg1255539 date=1295341656]
If anything isn't rafa responsible for suso being at the club with his revamped acadamy ?
[/quote]
The Rafa bashing is really pathetic. memories are short. We had more good times under him than bad.
Things didn't work out for us after a poor season and that's happens to everyone. Let's not forget that he revamped the youth set-up and brought over many classy players that we have for the future.
[/quote]
Is the correct answer.....
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=43540.msg1255539#msg1255539 date=1295341656]
If anything isn't rafa responsible for suso being at the club with his revamped acadamy ?
[/quote]
The Rafa bashing is really pathetic. memories are short. We had more good times under him than bad.
Things didn't work out for us after a poor season and that's happens to everyone. Let's not forget that he revamped the youth set-up and brought over many classy players that we have for the future.
[/quote]
Is the correct answer.....
How have I bashed Rafa? I guess highlighting his negative, as well as positive, benefits to the Youth set up is considering bashing ... Oh well, RCDNWers are still alive and well.
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=43540.msg1255529#msg1255529 date=1295340265]
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=43540.msg1255417#msg1255417 date=1295310841]
He could be outrages! Thank fuck Benitez isnt here to bury him and then send him on loan to the conference or something!!!
[/quote]
Can you name one player who Benitez sent on loan who is now doing well and playing at a better level?
I'll bet you can't. Its this kind of pathetic, ill thought out jibe against people that irks me the most. Why did his name even need to be brought into this discussion?
Youth players; some of them make it, most of them don't. That's not a Benitez thing, that's the case at pretty much every football club.
[/quote]
It was just a general statement, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it would have been a legitimate concern of mine under previous management. Ok maybe not being sent to the conference but somewhere else perhaps.
Compared to other clubs, the scum, arsenal etc, we never really blooded youngsters under Benitez. The reserves under Benitez seemed more like a quick fix for turning fees of under a million into profit. And ill bring him into it if I want to, Whether you think its knee jerk, ill thought out or whatever the fact is that Suso does stand a better chance under someone like Kenny of breaking into the first team.
Oh and your first line, is that disagreeing or agreeing or what the fuck. One player thats playing at a better level than what? The reserves where he was kept or the first team? I dont understand. Maybe you should be a tad clearer when constructing your knee jerk ill thought out questions! However if its loans and benitez you want to talk about I know that if you were loaned out under Rafa it was pretty much the kiss of death for your liverpool career!
Plus everything le tallac said!!! Its not Rafa bashing either, its just being happier with the attitude of the current management towards promoting youth. Jesus, some people are so touchy!
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=43540.msg1255417#msg1255417 date=1295310841]
He could be outrages! Thank fuck Benitez isnt here to bury him and then send him on loan to the conference or something!!!
[/quote]
Can you name one player who Benitez sent on loan who is now doing well and playing at a better level?
I'll bet you can't. Its this kind of pathetic, ill thought out jibe against people that irks me the most. Why did his name even need to be brought into this discussion?
Youth players; some of them make it, most of them don't. That's not a Benitez thing, that's the case at pretty much every football club.
[/quote]
It was just a general statement, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it would have been a legitimate concern of mine under previous management. Ok maybe not being sent to the conference but somewhere else perhaps.
Compared to other clubs, the scum, arsenal etc, we never really blooded youngsters under Benitez. The reserves under Benitez seemed more like a quick fix for turning fees of under a million into profit. And ill bring him into it if I want to, Whether you think its knee jerk, ill thought out or whatever the fact is that Suso does stand a better chance under someone like Kenny of breaking into the first team.
Oh and your first line, is that disagreeing or agreeing or what the fuck. One player thats playing at a better level than what? The reserves where he was kept or the first team? I dont understand. Maybe you should be a tad clearer when constructing your knee jerk ill thought out questions! However if its loans and benitez you want to talk about I know that if you were loaned out under Rafa it was pretty much the kiss of death for your liverpool career!
Plus everything le tallac said!!! Its not Rafa bashing either, its just being happier with the attitude of the current management towards promoting youth. Jesus, some people are so touchy!
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255543#msg1255543 date=1295342043]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255557#msg1255557 date=1295343871]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255543#msg1255543 date=1295342043]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[/quote]
Peter -
Interesting points. Kelly was ready last year - in fact, quite a few people on the site were calling for him to get time already. He wasn't. I don't know how much a 'year' made any difference in his development. He was ready. As for Pacehco (& Robinson), they got most of their time in the last few games of the season (when our season was over), and even then, 10-15 minutes MAX.
"because he never really had an outstanding prospect." Look at how Fergie and Wenger give their kids a proper go. That's how you develop them ... Do we really think Gibson is that good? Yet he sees time in the PL & UCL. There's plenty of examples like this. I don't know how Rafa was at Valencia, but has ever been known as someone who gives kids a chance? I know he gave that young lad at Inter (a striker I think) a go ... but that's all that sticks out to me.
1) Ngog - he played him last year as a) He wanted Kuyt on the right of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 b) didn't have anyone better.
Insua - Aurelio was either injured, or not trust for some reason. He didn't really have an option here most of the time.
Lucas - you really want to use this as an example?
2) I gave him credit, as it's defintiely due, for revamping the youth system. Whether that 'leads' to 'giving his youth a chance', I don't know. We'll never know but I know it's something I always highlighted as to NOT liking in Rafa.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255543#msg1255543 date=1295342043]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[/quote]
Peter -
Interesting points. Kelly was ready last year - in fact, quite a few people on the site were calling for him to get time already. He wasn't. I don't know how much a 'year' made any difference in his development. He was ready. As for Pacehco (& Robinson), they got most of their time in the last few games of the season (when our season was over), and even then, 10-15 minutes MAX.
"because he never really had an outstanding prospect." Look at how Fergie and Wenger give their kids a proper go. That's how you develop them ... Do we really think Gibson is that good? Yet he sees time in the PL & UCL. There's plenty of examples like this. I don't know how Rafa was at Valencia, but has ever been known as someone who gives kids a chance? I know he gave that young lad at Inter (a striker I think) a go ... but that's all that sticks out to me.
1) Ngog - he played him last year as a) He wanted Kuyt on the right of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 b) didn't have anyone better.
Insua - Aurelio was either injured, or not trust for some reason. He didn't really have an option here most of the time.
Lucas - you really want to use this as an example?
2) I gave him credit, as it's defintiely due, for revamping the youth system. Whether that 'leads' to 'giving his youth a chance', I don't know. We'll never know but I know it's something I always highlighted as to NOT liking in Rafa.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43540.msg1255559#msg1255559 date=1295344183]
Mellor - Mellow rewarded him with important goals and assists ... and got little opportunity, though he was cak.
Pongolle - another great example. played him, did well and then sold him when we had little better
Robinson - yes, a 2 minute cameo when he knew he was getting fired a few days/weeks later, wonderful.
Spearing - how many games?
Kelly - he played brilliantly against Lyon and was never given a chance again. excellent.
El Zhar - great example there
Potter - great example there
Insua - already discussed
N'gog - already discussed
Plessis - great example there
Guthrie - great example there (wasn't he sold and we got Lucas instead? what was the point of that exactly?)
Ayala - 1 sub appearance and emergency start due to defender shortage? great example.
Not to mention the billion youngsters he brought into the academy from around the world.
Yeah Rafa never gave youth a chance.
Shut the fuck up you short thinking cocks
[/quote]
Why don't you mention Pacheco?
And the last sentence is unnecessary - cut that shit out.
Mellor - Mellow rewarded him with important goals and assists ... and got little opportunity, though he was cak.
Pongolle - another great example. played him, did well and then sold him when we had little better
Robinson - yes, a 2 minute cameo when he knew he was getting fired a few days/weeks later, wonderful.
Spearing - how many games?
Kelly - he played brilliantly against Lyon and was never given a chance again. excellent.
El Zhar - great example there
Potter - great example there
Insua - already discussed
N'gog - already discussed
Plessis - great example there
Guthrie - great example there (wasn't he sold and we got Lucas instead? what was the point of that exactly?)
Ayala - 1 sub appearance and emergency start due to defender shortage? great example.
Not to mention the billion youngsters he brought into the academy from around the world.
Yeah Rafa never gave youth a chance.
Shut the fuck up you short thinking cocks
[/quote]
Why don't you mention Pacheco?
And the last sentence is unnecessary - cut that shit out.
And before any suggests that 'youth' is only applicable to kids who've been at the club since they were 4 years old after being plucked from some Toxteth griefhole, don't.
Starting Anthony Le Tallec in the Champions League quarter final against the best team in Europe is 'giving youth a chance'.
Starting Anthony Le Tallec in the Champions League quarter final against the best team in Europe is 'giving youth a chance'.
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
It is a fact that we were very poor in developing youth through the ranks over the last 8/9 years. 6 of which had Rafa at the helm, but it's hard to say how much of this failure was because of his management style and ideologies.
But it's enough of an evidence to conclude that Rafa wasn't really good at developing young players through the ranks. The criticism he gets on here is unfair, but there is also the other side of that where people are trying to sugar quote one of his weakness, which frankly is just as bad.
He was not the only reason for us being poor when it came to this facet of the game, but i don't think he did enough to change that. So, for me, he was not good at developing young players through...
But it's enough of an evidence to conclude that Rafa wasn't really good at developing young players through the ranks. The criticism he gets on here is unfair, but there is also the other side of that where people are trying to sugar quote one of his weakness, which frankly is just as bad.
He was not the only reason for us being poor when it came to this facet of the game, but i don't think he did enough to change that. So, for me, he was not good at developing young players through...
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43540.msg1255565#msg1255565 date=1295344901]
And before any suggests that 'youth' is only applicable to kids who've been at the club since they were 4 years old after being plucked from some Toxteth griefhole, don't.
Starting Anthony Le Tallec in the Champions League quarter final against the best team in Europe is 'giving youth a chance'.
[/quote]
Juve weren't the best team in Europe that year - and Le Tallec rewarded him with an assist that game on Luis's goal - what happened to him in the next game? But hey, he gave him a start ...
Lucas/Ngog were bought as 1st team squad players - Insua was a proper chance, though he had no other options really due to selling Riise & Aurelio's injury record.
How did he do when he had a great team at Valencia with his youth? Did any get a breakthrough? I somehow doubt it - Rafa never stuck with kids, bar the three we've mentioned ...
Avvy - no one hasn't give him credit for not revamping the youth set up ...
And before any suggests that 'youth' is only applicable to kids who've been at the club since they were 4 years old after being plucked from some Toxteth griefhole, don't.
Starting Anthony Le Tallec in the Champions League quarter final against the best team in Europe is 'giving youth a chance'.
[/quote]
Juve weren't the best team in Europe that year - and Le Tallec rewarded him with an assist that game on Luis's goal - what happened to him in the next game? But hey, he gave him a start ...
Lucas/Ngog were bought as 1st team squad players - Insua was a proper chance, though he had no other options really due to selling Riise & Aurelio's injury record.
How did he do when he had a great team at Valencia with his youth? Did any get a breakthrough? I somehow doubt it - Rafa never stuck with kids, bar the three we've mentioned ...
Avvy - no one hasn't give him credit for not revamping the youth set up ...
i still think you're being harsh.
1. why isn't lucas an example? he was about 20 when he came in, and got chances straight away. for darron gibson, read lucas.
2. which of the players who benitez didn't give a chance to do you honestly think would've got into arsenal's or utd's teams? spearing, darby, potter? eccleston, irwin, san jose? there *was* a dearth of young talent at liverpool throughout his time, and that has to be taken into account imo.
3. the circs that insua and ngog got their chances under are perfectly common routes into PL football for most young players. i don't see the problem. the fact is, they got their chances, and they weren't fleeting, either.
1. why isn't lucas an example? he was about 20 when he came in, and got chances straight away. for darron gibson, read lucas.
2. which of the players who benitez didn't give a chance to do you honestly think would've got into arsenal's or utd's teams? spearing, darby, potter? eccleston, irwin, san jose? there *was* a dearth of young talent at liverpool throughout his time, and that has to be taken into account imo.
3. the circs that insua and ngog got their chances under are perfectly common routes into PL football for most young players. i don't see the problem. the fact is, they got their chances, and they weren't fleeting, either.
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255567#msg1255567 date=1295344971]
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
Here is the thing Ryan - I mentioned this last year after his cameo appearances, and was shouted at by a few posters. Pacheco played great when Kenny was watching, and in the next senior game, was on the bench. I think that highlights the mentality of Kenny vs Rafa.
I know you love Rafa, and soured on him much later than most of us, but I don't think he gave the kids any proper chance here bar the lucky three. Kelly was never given a shot, and as I said, I doubt the 'extra year' in the reserve set up did much for his development. He was ready last year for more games. That example speaks volumes.
I know you love Rafa, and soured on him much later than most of us, but I don't think he gave the kids any proper chance here bar the lucky three. Kelly was never given a shot, and as I said, I doubt the 'extra year' in the reserve set up did much for his development. He was ready last year for more games. That example speaks volumes.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255575#msg1255575 date=1295345220]
i still think you're being harsh.
1. why isn't lucas an example? he was about 20 when he came in, and got chances straight away. for darron gibson, read lucas.
Rafa spent 5.5 million on a highly rated Brazilian (well our scouts rated him highly). You think he couldn't play him? His real game time came the year after Xabi left.
2. which of the players who benitez didn't give a chance to do you honestly think would've got into arsenal's or utd's teams? spearing, darby, potter? eccleston, irwin, san jose? there *was* a dearth of young talent at liverpool throughout his time, and that has to be taken into account imo.
Manure's strength has been the ability of having a great 10-12 players, backed up by younger players who seemingly always perform. That's probably b/c Fergie is a better manager than most but I would guess if Rafa was at Manure, and Fergie here - someo f those kids would have developed far quicker than they have done with us.
3. the circs that insua and ngog got their chances under are perfectly common routes into PL football for most young players. i don't see the problem. the fact is, they got their chances, and they weren't fleeting, either.
Rafa had no other options ... If he did, I don't think he would have played them that much ... but again, that's my opinion and I may very well be wrong
[/quote]
i still think you're being harsh.
1. why isn't lucas an example? he was about 20 when he came in, and got chances straight away. for darron gibson, read lucas.
Rafa spent 5.5 million on a highly rated Brazilian (well our scouts rated him highly). You think he couldn't play him? His real game time came the year after Xabi left.
2. which of the players who benitez didn't give a chance to do you honestly think would've got into arsenal's or utd's teams? spearing, darby, potter? eccleston, irwin, san jose? there *was* a dearth of young talent at liverpool throughout his time, and that has to be taken into account imo.
Manure's strength has been the ability of having a great 10-12 players, backed up by younger players who seemingly always perform. That's probably b/c Fergie is a better manager than most but I would guess if Rafa was at Manure, and Fergie here - someo f those kids would have developed far quicker than they have done with us.
3. the circs that insua and ngog got their chances under are perfectly common routes into PL football for most young players. i don't see the problem. the fact is, they got their chances, and they weren't fleeting, either.
Rafa had no other options ... If he did, I don't think he would have played them that much ... but again, that's my opinion and I may very well be wrong
[/quote]
Its a bit harsh saying Kelly never got a shot when he suffered injuries after the Lyon game and was never available.
Anyway the lads were not good enough during Rafa's tenure. That hammering Arsenal gave our kids in the Carling Cup was a wake up call.
Rafa tried his best to improve the set up and hopefully it will pay off in the near future. The youth team at the moment has some very good lads in it who have a chance of making it at a decent level in the game.
Anyway the lads were not good enough during Rafa's tenure. That hammering Arsenal gave our kids in the Carling Cup was a wake up call.
Rafa tried his best to improve the set up and hopefully it will pay off in the near future. The youth team at the moment has some very good lads in it who have a chance of making it at a decent level in the game.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255577#msg1255577 date=1295345319]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255567#msg1255567 date=1295344971]
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
[/quote]
That's coz they're shit, it's not because they're old.
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255567#msg1255567 date=1295344971]
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
[/quote]
That's coz they're shit, it's not because they're old.
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255587#msg1255587 date=1295345722]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255577#msg1255577 date=1295345319]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255567#msg1255567 date=1295344971]
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
[/quote]
That's coz they're shit, it's not because they're old.
[/quote]
Roy clearly couldn't see past the importance of 'experience' then. As Kenny says of Kelly 'he's there on merit'. If you're good enough, you're old enough. Not all managers see it that way.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=43540.msg1255577#msg1255577 date=1295345319]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43540.msg1255567#msg1255567 date=1295344971]
It's hard to say how succesful Rafa's youth policy has been, because I think it's a bit too soon to tell.
But I think he deserves credit for trying to imrpove the situation and revamping the Academy.
Of his many failures, this isn't one.
There's no point singling out Kenny for massive praise for giving youth a chance when it's clear that he's doing so mainly because of the monumental shitness of our squad (which was one of the many failures)
[/quote]
You can give him credit for not going down Hodgson's line of sticking with the old pros.
[/quote]
That's coz they're shit, it's not because they're old.
[/quote]
Roy clearly couldn't see past the importance of 'experience' then. As Kenny says of Kelly 'he's there on merit'. If you're good enough, you're old enough. Not all managers see it that way.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255560#msg1255560 date=1295344407]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255557#msg1255557 date=1295343871]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255543#msg1255543 date=1295342043]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[/quote]
Peter -
Interesting points. Kelly was ready last year - in fact, quite a few people on the site were calling for him to get time already. He wasn't. I don't know how much a 'year' made any difference in his development. He was ready. As for Pacehco (& Robinson), they got most of their time in the last few games of the season (when our season was over), and even then, 10-15 minutes MAX.
"because he never really had an outstanding prospect." Look at how Fergie and Wenger give their kids a proper go. That's how you develop them ... Do we really think Gibson is that good? Yet he sees time in the PL & UCL. There's plenty of examples like this. I don't know how Rafa was at Valencia, but has ever been known as someone who gives kids a chance? I know he gave that young lad at Inter (a striker I think) a go ... but that's all that sticks out to me.
1) Ngog - he played him last year as a) He wanted Kuyt on the right of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 b) didn't have anyone better.
Insua - Aurelio was either injured, or not trust for some reason. He didn't really have an option here most of the time.
Lucas - you really want to use this as an example?
2) I gave him credit, as it's defintiely due, for revamping the youth system. Whether that 'leads' to 'giving his youth a chance', I don't know. We'll never know but I know it's something I always highlighted as to NOT liking in Rafa.
[/quote]
Tall, elegant centre-half Martin Kelly graduated to Melwood in the summer of 2007 and was a part of Gary Ablett's reserve team that won the League in the 2007-8 season. Rafa included him in the group of Liverpool players listed for the Champions League and he made his debut when he came on for Jamie Carragher in the 82nd minute against PSV Eindhoven on 9th December 2008. He didn't play any more games that season for Liverpool's first-team and was loaned out to Huddersfield Town in League One from March until the end of the 2008-2009 season and made 7 League appearances for the Yorkshire club. Kelly finally made his full Liverpool debut against Lyon at Anfield in a group stage game in the 2009-2010 Champions League season. He played as right-back and had a man-of-the-match performance, delivering quality crosses and showing undoubted skills. He might have had a good run in the side but injured his groin against Lyon and was sidelined for four months.
By the time he had recovered from the injury he sustained in October 2009, only a couple of months of the season remained. Time enough, however, for Martin to make two more substitute appearances ... away to Unirea Urziceni on the 25th of February and at home to Portsmouth on the 15th of March before getting injured again and not featuring for the rest of the season.
Don't let facts get in the way of Bitterness and bile though
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43540.msg1255557#msg1255557 date=1295343871]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=43540.msg1255543#msg1255543 date=1295342043]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43540.msg1255536#msg1255536 date=1295341476]
if there was exceptional talent that could have been used then rafa would have used it. he gave games to insua and ngog who are the personification of average.
[/quote]
Yes, Pacheco wasn't at the club as a 19-20 year old ... Neither was Kelly ...
[/quote]
i think that's harsh. pacheco and kelly both got bits of game time last season, when they were available, which was less often than people seem to remember. they're a year older now, and when you're that young that makes quite a difference.
the thing is, it's difficult to realy know how open rafa would've been to blooding youth, because he never really had an outstanding prospect in all the time he was at the club. the only one you could make a case for would be kelly last season, who got a chance and then got injured for a long period. by the time he came back we were struggling badly so it was perhaps understandable to hold off from throwing him in.
there are a couple of things clearly in his favour, though:
1. the amount of games he gave to only mediocre youngsters like insua, ngog and lucas.
2. all the effort he went to to revamp the youth system and the repeated failed attempts to bring in youngsters like ramsey and walcott. surely not even benitez would be so infuriating to go to that trouble and have no intention of giving them a chance!
[/quote]
Peter -
Interesting points. Kelly was ready last year - in fact, quite a few people on the site were calling for him to get time already. He wasn't. I don't know how much a 'year' made any difference in his development. He was ready. As for Pacehco (& Robinson), they got most of their time in the last few games of the season (when our season was over), and even then, 10-15 minutes MAX.
"because he never really had an outstanding prospect." Look at how Fergie and Wenger give their kids a proper go. That's how you develop them ... Do we really think Gibson is that good? Yet he sees time in the PL & UCL. There's plenty of examples like this. I don't know how Rafa was at Valencia, but has ever been known as someone who gives kids a chance? I know he gave that young lad at Inter (a striker I think) a go ... but that's all that sticks out to me.
1) Ngog - he played him last year as a) He wanted Kuyt on the right of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 b) didn't have anyone better.
Insua - Aurelio was either injured, or not trust for some reason. He didn't really have an option here most of the time.
Lucas - you really want to use this as an example?
2) I gave him credit, as it's defintiely due, for revamping the youth system. Whether that 'leads' to 'giving his youth a chance', I don't know. We'll never know but I know it's something I always highlighted as to NOT liking in Rafa.
[/quote]
Tall, elegant centre-half Martin Kelly graduated to Melwood in the summer of 2007 and was a part of Gary Ablett's reserve team that won the League in the 2007-8 season. Rafa included him in the group of Liverpool players listed for the Champions League and he made his debut when he came on for Jamie Carragher in the 82nd minute against PSV Eindhoven on 9th December 2008. He didn't play any more games that season for Liverpool's first-team and was loaned out to Huddersfield Town in League One from March until the end of the 2008-2009 season and made 7 League appearances for the Yorkshire club. Kelly finally made his full Liverpool debut against Lyon at Anfield in a group stage game in the 2009-2010 Champions League season. He played as right-back and had a man-of-the-match performance, delivering quality crosses and showing undoubted skills. He might have had a good run in the side but injured his groin against Lyon and was sidelined for four months.
By the time he had recovered from the injury he sustained in October 2009, only a couple of months of the season remained. Time enough, however, for Martin to make two more substitute appearances ... away to Unirea Urziceni on the 25th of February and at home to Portsmouth on the 15th of March before getting injured again and not featuring for the rest of the season.
Don't let facts get in the way of Bitterness and bile though
2009:
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 4 7
Dani Pacheco 4 0 0 1 2 7
Daniel Ayala 5 0 0 0 0 5
Jay Spearing 3 0 2 0 0 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 0 4
Martin Kelly 1 0 0 1 1 3
Stephen Darby 1 1 0 1 0 3
Nathan Eccleston 1 0 1 0 0 2
Jack Robinson 1 0 0 0 0 1
Damien Plessis 0 0 1 0 0 1
2008:
David N'Gog 14 0 2 3 19
Nabil El Zhar 15 0 2 2 19
Emiliano Insúa 10 1 2 0 13
Damien Plessis 1 0 2 2 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 4
Stephen Darby 0 0 1 1 2
Jay Spearing 0 0 0 2 2
Martin Kelly 0 0 0 1 1
2007:
Jack Hobbs 2 0 3 0 5
Sebastian Leto 0 0 2 2 4
Nabil El Zhar 0 1 2 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 3 0 0 0 3
Damien Plessis 2 0 0 0 2
2006:
Danny Guthrie 3 0 3 1 0 7
Lee Peltier 0 0 3 1 0 4
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 2 0 0 0 0 2
James Smith 0 0 1 0 0 1
Miki Roque 0 0 0 1 0 1
Florent S.-Pongolle 0 0 0 0 1 1
Daniele Padelli 1 0 0 0 0 1
For someone 'Who never gave youth a chance', he sort of did like to try prospects out?
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 4 7
Dani Pacheco 4 0 0 1 2 7
Daniel Ayala 5 0 0 0 0 5
Jay Spearing 3 0 2 0 0 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 0 4
Martin Kelly 1 0 0 1 1 3
Stephen Darby 1 1 0 1 0 3
Nathan Eccleston 1 0 1 0 0 2
Jack Robinson 1 0 0 0 0 1
Damien Plessis 0 0 1 0 0 1
2008:
David N'Gog 14 0 2 3 19
Nabil El Zhar 15 0 2 2 19
Emiliano Insúa 10 1 2 0 13
Damien Plessis 1 0 2 2 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 4
Stephen Darby 0 0 1 1 2
Jay Spearing 0 0 0 2 2
Martin Kelly 0 0 0 1 1
2007:
Jack Hobbs 2 0 3 0 5
Sebastian Leto 0 0 2 2 4
Nabil El Zhar 0 1 2 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 3 0 0 0 3
Damien Plessis 2 0 0 0 2
2006:
Danny Guthrie 3 0 3 1 0 7
Lee Peltier 0 0 3 1 0 4
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 2 0 0 0 0 2
James Smith 0 0 1 0 0 1
Miki Roque 0 0 0 1 0 1
Florent S.-Pongolle 0 0 0 0 1 1
Daniele Padelli 1 0 0 0 0 1
For someone 'Who never gave youth a chance', he sort of did like to try prospects out?
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43540.msg1255559#msg1255559 date=1295344183]
Mellor
Pongolle
Robinson
Spearing
Kelly
El Zhar
Potter
Insua
N'gog
Plessis
Guthrie
Ayala
Not to mention the billion youngsters he brought into the academy from around the world.
Yeah Rafa never gave youth a chance.
Shut the fuck up you short thinking cocks
[/quote]
well, I wouldn't have flung in the cutting insult at the end but other than that, spot on.
Mellor
Pongolle
Robinson
Spearing
Kelly
El Zhar
Potter
Insua
N'gog
Plessis
Guthrie
Ayala
Not to mention the billion youngsters he brought into the academy from around the world.
Yeah Rafa never gave youth a chance.
Shut the fuck up you short thinking cocks
[/quote]
well, I wouldn't have flung in the cutting insult at the end but other than that, spot on.
JimmyRiceWriter Jimmy Rice
Just spoke to Kenny. Suso&Coady have NOT been promoted to Melwood. Just part of ongoing programme of familiarising Academy lads to the place
JimmyRiceWriter Jimmy Rice
Suso/Coady are latest players from Academy to be invited to train at Melwood for few days. Flanagan/Robinson were there couple of weeks ago.
JimmyRiceWriter Jimmy Rice
Policy introduced under Rafa I believe but players go back to Academy afterwards.
Just spoke to Kenny. Suso&Coady have NOT been promoted to Melwood. Just part of ongoing programme of familiarising Academy lads to the place
JimmyRiceWriter Jimmy Rice
Suso/Coady are latest players from Academy to be invited to train at Melwood for few days. Flanagan/Robinson were there couple of weeks ago.
JimmyRiceWriter Jimmy Rice
Policy introduced under Rafa I believe but players go back to Academy afterwards.
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43540.msg1255678#msg1255678 date=1295350309]
2009:
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 4 7
Dani Pacheco 4 0 0 1 2 7
Daniel Ayala 5 0 0 0 0 5
Jay Spearing 3 0 2 0 0 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 0 4
Martin Kelly 1 0 0 1 1 3
Stephen Darby 1 1 0 1 0 3
Nathan Eccleston 1 0 1 0 0 2
Jack Robinson 1 0 0 0 0 1
Damien Plessis 0 0 1 0 0 1
2008:
David N'Gog 14 0 2 3 19
Nabil El Zhar 15 0 2 2 19
Emiliano Insúa 10 1 2 0 13
Damien Plessis 1 0 2 2 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 4
Stephen Darby 0 0 1 1 2
Jay Spearing 0 0 0 2 2
Martin Kelly 0 0 0 1 1
2007:
Jack Hobbs 2 0 3 0 5
Sebastian Leto 0 0 2 2 4
Nabil El Zhar 0 1 2 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 3 0 0 0 3
Damien Plessis 2 0 0 0 2
2006:
Danny Guthrie 3 0 3 1 0 7
Lee Peltier 0 0 3 1 0 4
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 2 0 0 0 0 2
James Smith 0 0 1 0 0 1
Miki Roque 0 0 0 1 0 1
Florent S.-Pongolle 0 0 0 0 1 1
Daniele Padelli 1 0 0 0 0 1
For someone 'Who never gave youth a chance', he sort of did like to try prospects out?
[/quote]
game, set and match.
2009:
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 4 7
Dani Pacheco 4 0 0 1 2 7
Daniel Ayala 5 0 0 0 0 5
Jay Spearing 3 0 2 0 0 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 0 4
Martin Kelly 1 0 0 1 1 3
Stephen Darby 1 1 0 1 0 3
Nathan Eccleston 1 0 1 0 0 2
Jack Robinson 1 0 0 0 0 1
Damien Plessis 0 0 1 0 0 1
2008:
David N'Gog 14 0 2 3 19
Nabil El Zhar 15 0 2 2 19
Emiliano Insúa 10 1 2 0 13
Damien Plessis 1 0 2 2 5
Diego Cavalieri 0 1 2 1 4
Stephen Darby 0 0 1 1 2
Jay Spearing 0 0 0 2 2
Martin Kelly 0 0 0 1 1
2007:
Jack Hobbs 2 0 3 0 5
Sebastian Leto 0 0 2 2 4
Nabil El Zhar 0 1 2 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 3 0 0 0 3
Damien Plessis 2 0 0 0 2
2006:
Danny Guthrie 3 0 3 1 0 7
Lee Peltier 0 0 3 1 0 4
Nabil El Zhar 3 0 0 0 0 3
Emiliano Insúa 2 0 0 0 0 2
James Smith 0 0 1 0 0 1
Miki Roque 0 0 0 1 0 1
Florent S.-Pongolle 0 0 0 0 1 1
Daniele Padelli 1 0 0 0 0 1
For someone 'Who never gave youth a chance', he sort of did like to try prospects out?
[/quote]
game, set and match.
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