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Henderson to City

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Well our budget last summer was mostly on the basis of selling Suarez and despite being in the Champions League we again spent nothing in January when needs must.
With us I think being in the Champions league didn't mean much this year with regards to attracting players or selling ourselves to a wider audience.
Would any of the players that we did sign turn us down if we weren't playing Champions league.
I doubt it.
I agree to the part where being consistently in the Champions league helps massively but under these owners we aren't going to be paying the wages that attracts the top stars.
We just fucked up massively in the summer despite having the lure of European football so I have no confidence in the current regime no matter how much revenue is earned.
For that reason I'm not that worried about qualifying for Europe.
It's just fucking depressing now.


Well all you're saying there is that things are bad whatever happens so they may as well be as bad as possible so at least I don't have to hope, or something.

Personally I don't agree. I think the CL helped last summer, if only in terms of an extra £15-20m to spend. That would've been more like £35-40m this summer, plus the damage it would have dealt to Man Utd in attracting players. And more importantly it would've been another step towards permanently reestablishing ourselves among those clubs, so that in a few years we could indeed have started competing for the best players. It might not have been a destination itself but it would've gone a long way towards it.

I'm sorry but I think the failure is likely to prove very damaging indeed.
 
United failed to qualify last season and went out and bought Di Maria, they tried across two windows to get Bale and spent fairly extravagantly elsewhere on players and wages (Falcao?). So it's short-term thinking to talk about how "very damaging" it is. There's plenty of factors to consider, like if you look at last season and how less games and a settled lineup benefited us over United, you're talking like there would be a guaranteed knock-on effect this season, should United fail to qualify. Well not really. They didn't qualify last time around, spent big and now look guaranteed top four.

I can't believe the way people consistently make predictions on here about football, as though we're not taught, season upon season, that if there's one singular beauty/annoyance about the game, it's that you can't predict every(any?)thing. We were meant to challenge for the title again, Southampton were doomed, etc.

We've had a shit season, draw a line under it, assess where we fucked up and move on. We sure as hell didn't fuck up royally because of Champions League football, nor did we particularly benefit from it.
 
That last bit probably underlines to why we havent progressed this season aswell.
 
United failed to qualify last season and went out and bought Di Maria, they tried across two windows to get Bale and spent fairly extravagantly elsewhere on players and wages (Falcao?). So it's short-term thinking to talk about how "very damaging" it is. There's plenty of factors to consider, like if you look at last season and how less games and a settled lineup benefited us over United, you're talking like there would be a guaranteed knock-on effect this season, should United fail to qualify. Well not really. They didn't qualify last time around, spent big and now look guaranteed top four.

I can't believe the way people consistently make predictions on here about football, as though we're not taught, season upon season, that if there's one singular beauty/annoyance about the game, it's that you can't predict every(any?)thing. We were meant to challenge for the title again, Southampton were doomed, etc.

We've had a shit season, draw a line under it, assess where we fucked up and move on. We sure as hell didn't fuck up royally because of Champions League football, nor did we particularly benefit from it.


We're not Man Utd! We're not City! We're not PSG!

We don't have absolutely mountains of cash to throw at our problems. These examples are simply not relevant to our situation.

There are now at least 3 teams (probably City too) who can just bury us in terms of financial strength. Of course, there's always the unexpected, I don't deny it. But the *likelihood* is the gap between us and them will get wider and wider.
 
We're not Man Utd! We're not City! We're not PSG!

We don't have absolutely mountains of cash to throw at our problems. These examples are simply not relevant to our situation.

There are now at least 3 teams (probably City too) who can just bury us in terms of financial strength. Of course, there's always the unexpected, I don't deny it. But the *likelihood* is the gap between us and them will get wider and wider.

People say this every season Peter. Whenever we've *done* something over the last two decades, it hasn't been on the back of success, it's been in spite of a lack of. I get that they have more money, are now more successful and the gap has the potential to widen, but it's really no wider that it was 8 years ago, the only difference is it's perhaps more competitive, which in itself leads to openings. So saying that this season has the potential to see us fall further behind is neither here nor there. We'll either spend £30m or £60m (for example), the real crux of the issue is how well we spend that money and how well we manage and reassess what we've got, the rest is just icing on the cake - or the potential to continue to waste resources.

Until we've got a stadium and we win something again, the attracting of the better players is going to continue to elude us, even then with success, as we know from past experience, it doesn't guarantee Jack shit in the transfer market, because there are tonnes of other variables involved, which we've done to death.

We need to return to basics again, start taking care of the smaller details and the rest will follow, I really couldn't give a shit about CL football right now.
 
CL can't really be seen as a massive lure.
Is Galatasary or Besiktas or Fenerbache or FC Basel, etc more appealing than Liverpool FC? No fucking way. Those clubs are absolutely nailed on for CL but only washed up players go there.
It's about money - that's pretty much it.
 
People say this every season Peter. Whenever we've *done* something over the last two decades, it hasn't been on the back of success, it's been in spite of a lack of. I get that they have more money, are now more successful and the gap has the potential to widen, but it's really no wider that it was 8 years ago, the only difference is it's perhaps more competitive, which in itself leads to openings. So saying that this season has the potential to see us fall further behind is neither here nor there. We'll either spend £30m or £60m (for example), the real crux of the issue is how well we spend that money and how well we manage and reassess what we've got, the rest is just icing on the cake - or the potential to continue to waste resources.

Until we've got a stadium and we win something again, the attracting of the better players is going to continue to elude us, even then with success, as we know from past experience, it doesn't guarantee Jack shit in the transfer market, because there are tonnes of other variables involved, which we've done to death.

We need to return to basics again, start taking care of the smaller details and the rest will follow, I really couldn't give a shit about CL football right now.


If they do say it every season, they wouldn't have been far wrong, would they? We've fallen drastically behind in the last 6 years. I for one felt this was a huge chance to turn the situation around and start competing again. I think we've blown it and the probability is that it won't come round again for the foreseeable future.

Where are people getting this idea that we're somehow going to be able to best a team with about triple our budget, have the attraction of CL status, and are already better than we are? Do they think we're just going to pull another Suarez out of the hat? Or maybe by 'taking care of the small details'? (what does that actually mean, btw?)

Dream on.
 
Have we really fell drastically behind in the last 6 years? No we haven't, other teams haven't ran away from us, no more ahead than they were a 5, 10 or 15 years back, the only difference is the pack on the fringe of things have become more competitive. People said when Hodgson went and then Kenny that we wouldn't challenge for a very long time, yet we did.

It's not really a question of falling further behind, it's a case of being off the pace for a more sustained period (potentially), it's not really that the gulf widens and we drop off, otherwise, when people were predicting the same thing 10 years ago, the forecast for where we would be now would have been difficult to contemplate. As it is, we failed to capitalise on a good season and became an also ran this season, we start again in the Summer, same old until something gives, but like I said, we need to reassess where we've gone wrong at personnel and procedure levels and then we can move forward.

I'm not dreaming about anything, I'm trying to be realistic and not be too optimistic, or indeed, defeatist. Taking care of the small details means sorting out the basics, trimming the squad, looking at how we value players interms of quality and value, sorting out the CEO position, sorting out the "panel", they're the fundamentals that have dragged us back. Sort that out and we can possibly push on.

"Do you think we can compete with a team with triple our budget", well yeah actually, we just did. Like I said, the basics need sorting, like the issue of spending what money we do have, more effectively. We could have spent half of what we did in the Summer and bettered the current team, so like I said, moaning about resources is missing the point.
 
If we lose Henderson I'm going to be the weird guy watching the amateur leagues in the park that tells everyone how shite modern football is.
 
We've been in the CL one time in five since falling out in 2010, and I think have actually only finished top 5 in one of those seasons. If that's not falling behind I don't know what is. On average, we haven't even been close to qualifying.

As it happens, though, I think the situation we're facing now is more dangerous still. Utd and Arsenal have both been released from the constraints of the debts they were carrying back then, and are both in a position to spend very lavishly. Chelsea are an established force. That leaves City as the one team we might have a realistic chance of catching, and ordinarily I'd look at their aging squad and think we'd have a chance. Problem is, they've still got two or three more decent years to squeeze out of it, and in the meantime they can use the CL money we don't have to rebuild.

I know I must sound negative about everything, but that's my genuine reading of our position. We're in danger of becoming a permanent also ran club, just another Spurs.
 
The FSG Plan is unravelling, I remember seeing Ayre boasting in the press a few months ago about the bold new incentivised contracts they had devised with the message that all the other clubs should follow our lead.

We now have FOUR of our 1st team squad who have rejected these new-age contracts, with 3 of the 4 who would quite clearly have signed up in a flash if the contracts had been remotely competitive. I've not included Glen Johnson because we don't seem to have offered him a contract at all, in spite of the manager saying he wants to keep him.

It's way beyond the stage that you could argue they are all mercenaries, the club have totally misread the market. It's rank bad management and it can't help the dressing room. I bet they don't hesitate half as much about offering baseball players the going rate.
 
Have we really fell drastically behind in the last 6 years? No we haven't, other teams haven't ran away from us, no more ahead than they were a 5, 10 or 15 years back, the only difference is the pack on the fringe of things have become more competitive. People said when Hodgson went and then Kenny that we wouldn't challenge for a very long time, yet we did.

It's not really a question of falling further behind, it's a case of being off the pace for a more sustained period (potentially), it's not really that the gulf widens and we drop off, otherwise, when people were predicting the same thing 10 years ago, the forecast for where we would be now would have been difficult to contemplate. As it is, we failed to capitalise on a good season and became an also ran this season, we start again in the Summer, same old until something gives, but like I said, we need to reassess where we've gone wrong at personnel and procedure levels and then we can move forward.

I'm not dreaming about anything, I'm trying to be realistic and not be too optimistic, or indeed, defeatist. Taking care of the small details means sorting out the basics, trimming the squad, looking at how we value players interms of quality and value, sorting out the CEO position, sorting out the "panel", they're the fundamentals that have dragged us back. Sort that out and we can possibly push on.

"Do you think we can compete with a team with triple our budget", well yeah actually, we just did. Like I said, the basics need sorting, like the issue of spending what money we do have, more effectively. We could have spent half of what we did in the Summer and bettered the current team, so like I said, moaning about resources is missing the point.

Mark you really need to take the red tinted specs off..

We have been trying to do what you have said for years.. We are no better for it..

Our panel for buying players is woeful, and our history of buying players under Rodgers is woeful. Next season the goalposts changes in terms of financial support for the haves and have nots. The fact is for years under all managment we have been routinely more often getting it wrong than right with our transfer dealings.

Next season we will simply will not attract the players to compete at the highest level.. The likelyhood is we will fall further behind, our recent history confirms people perception of us.

Not qualifying for the Champs League this time round at the expense of Rival we are trying to reign in, is a bitter blow, both on and off the field whatever way you look at it..

On top of that we also have stadium to expand..
 
Take off the red tinted specs he says to a Liverpool fan.
I dunno anymore.
 
Take off the red tinted specs he says to a Liverpool fan.
I dunno anymore.

And then compounds pretty much everything I said about needing to change the approach, etc. It's not red tinted specs, I know where we are at, I'm just not falling for the "we're going to fall off the edge of the earth" stuff that everyone has been telling us for years and years.
 
And then compounds pretty much everything I said about needing to change the approach, etc. It's not red tinted specs, I know where we are at, I'm just not falling for the "we're going to fall off the edge of the earth" stuff that everyone has been telling us for years and years.
The best thing about winning these days is that we don't have to endure his 80 posts in an hour which always seem to follow a loss.
Notice that he didn't post last night or the hilarious alter ego Bob.
 
And then compounds pretty much everything I said about needing to change the approach, etc. It's not red tinted specs, I know where we are at, I'm just not falling for the "we're going to fall off the edge of the earth" stuff that everyone has been telling us for years and years.

For the past few years I'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly .... next season though is different. The vastly increased income from the CL and PL for the current top 4 is going to make it far far more difficult to break back into the CL slots. We are balanced on the edge of a precipice; financially, managerially and in terms of squad personnel.
We need to make the CL slots either this (I haven't given up hope, I'm still praying United or City will stall) or next season - before that money kicks in - otherwise I'm afraid we will have become Spurs Mk II without the allure or money to pay the salaries / transfer fees for even B+ players.
 
Its not "that" big a difference from this year to next and the income from next years CL wont be available this summer for the clubs in question. I agree though that if we once again fail to qualify next year then the gap might get bigger and bigger. But the clubs in question, places 1-4 atm, already have enough money to piss around so the extra 17-25 mill from the CL wont make much difference imho.
 
Its not "that" big a difference from this year to next and the income from next years CL wont be available this summer for the clubs in question.
Which is what I said.

I agree though that if we once again fail to qualify next year then the gap might get bigger and bigger. But the clubs in question, places 1-4 atm, already have enough money to piss around so the extra 17-25 mill from the CL wont make much difference imho.
That 25m is actually worth 50m vs. the team we would displace. Like a 3 pointer. Their kitty would shrink by 25m and ours increase by 25m. Or in other words 2 x 1st team players.
 
The FSG Plan is unravelling, I remember seeing Ayre boasting in the press a few months ago about the bold new incentivised contracts they had devised with the message that all the other clubs should follow our lead.

We now have FOUR of our 1st team squad who have rejected these new-age contracts, with 3 of the 4 who would quite clearly have signed up in a flash if the contracts had been remotely competitive. I've not included Glen Johnson because we don't seem to have offered him a contract at all, in spite of the manager saying he wants to keep him.

It's way beyond the stage that you could argue they are all mercenaries, the club have totally misread the market. It's rank bad management and it can't help the dressing room. I bet they don't hesitate half as much about offering baseball players the going rate.

I'm not sure Americans who have always dealt with the free agency market will ever truly understand how we work in this country with football contracts.
 
Which is what I said.


That 25m is actually worth 50m vs. the team we would displace. Like a 3 pointer. Their kitty would shrink by 25m and ours increase by 25m. Or in other words 2 x 1st team players.


Against Spurs etc yes and to a degree Arsenal. But City, Chelsea and Utd will buy whoever they want despite those 25 mill. It wont mean anything imho.
 
Qualifying is worth 60 million in TV monies alone.. so vs the team we displace that would be worth 120 million..
 
The point I making.. The increased revenue brought in can give these clubs more power in the transfer market.. They have the finances and the pull of champions league football to cherry pick who ever they want..

We may be able to match Henderson's wages with other clubs, but can we sustain it long term without Champions league football season after season? .. Simple answer No..

Because it then creates a presedance where other players will be expected to be paid the same... Leaving less funds to buy players in order to be able to compete..

Is this what Barack and Michelle Obama jived to at the inaugural ball?
 
Atletico are also a bit shit at paying their taxes and fully own hardly any of their players. I don't see them as a role model.
 
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