Gerrard's Position

[Farkmaster]

Let's play the "what's the best position for Gerrard" game again. We've been playing it his entire career, so why should it be any different as his draws to a close? The fact that we are still having it speaks to how good he is all-around, and that's almost been the problem for him, as he's solved whatever the problem of the day is.

Despite Rafa and Houllier, and Rodgers, and popular opinion (Rafa had spoke of playing him as a striker when he was older, initially) I remain unconvinced about us building a midfield around Gerrard at DM. I think he played as many poor games there as he did good ones, and I think he is there by process of elimination, with an assumption that he must be involved with his considerable and well-deserved reputation, combined with a lack of particularly compelling alternatives in our squad. I don't necessarily think that's actually the way forward.

As he continues to age, I find him even less persuasive as a DM. I think every step of pace he loses will outstrip the positioning adjustments he makes to make up for it, and we've played such a cavalier style that he is constantly under threat of counter attack. He isn't a Xabi Alonso, he's a naturally aggressive player, and his positioning in defense is not always world class, but he doesn't have the athleticism to make up for that anymore.

Our midfield in general is a big question still for me, so its possible a slightly different balance, and significant improvement at fullback will make all the difference, but I don't see Gerrard as DM in an ideal midfield.

Do most of you think the matter is settled after this last season?

 

[juniormember]

So many of our attacks started from deep last season when Gerrard would ping the ball inch perfect to the feet of our attackers that have pulled wide behind the defence or when our fullbacks would bomb forward on the counter.
We'd lose that without him.

So as much as I think he can be shite in his positioning at times and is definitely shite at organizing those around him, we still need him deep as nobody can do what he can do.

 

[Buddha]

I'm hoping he improves in the DM position this season (he's not had long to readjust) following his bedding in last year. If Emre Shaaan hits the ground running Gerrard will also benefit greatly from a rest every now and again.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I think we can put him at RB and he'd still be an upgrade over Johnson on both ends of the pitch.

 

[Red Astaire]

I think we can put him at RB and he'd still be an upgrade over Johnson on both ends of the pitch.

Very early on in his career he played a few games at RB in a row. I can't remember why. He was a revelation there and was probably the first time I truly recognised what a special player he is. I'm not saying lets play him there but as you say he would be miles better than bloody Johnson.

 

[mark1975]

I think he can do the role he's doing now in some games, not all, there might be a call for us to be more solid in the middle, we lost it there against Chelsea and City last season - two crunch games, so perhaps that's where Can comes in, assuming he's ready.

 

[Rafiagra]

I thought about RB but he's not got the legs for there anymore, especially not with how Rodgers plays.

His passing range is crucial for the deep lying midfielder. However, I still feel he is weak at spotting (and dealing with) danger, which is a liability for that role. Can has the passing range, hopefully he is more attuned to breaking up play aswell.

If he could adapt to Centre back, then that might be the next step for him but he's got another season as he currently is.

 

[mark1975]

I don't think we can really shoehorn him into another role now, it's why he's found himself where he is, to preserve energy and make the most of his passing, but like I said, he gets bypassed at times. If he's got a new role, it should be that he's playing a more limited part.

 

[Rafiagra]

It's fucking awful as a fan having to think about Gerrard coming to the end. I cant bring myself to suggest he could have a role as a sub. Feels disrespectful.

 

[mark1975]

It's fucking awful as a fan having to think about Gerrard coming to the end. I cant bring myself to suggest he could have a role as a sub. Feels disrespectful.

It does, but we'd be stupid to blindly think he can still do it, he clearly is still a threat from setpieces and is great at keeping the momentum going in midfield, but he's also a factor in what our flaws are defensively, which is one of the crucial things that Rodgers needs to overcome for us to push on.

 

[gkmacca]

He's a hugely intelligent footballer. Give him time and I think he'll master his new position. My objection last season was as soon as he started there the 'he's a natural there' hype was patently absurd - it was as if we were supposed not to believe what we saw with our own eyes - but I'm sure he'll get there.

 

[dantes]

He better retire from internationals. Then in most of the league games where our attack is good enough we should play a reserve midfielder. Captain or not, I'd save Gerrard for games in Europe or the League where our attackers are likely to be shit and run out of ideas.

 

[Mors]

Ryan is going to flounce in here and call you all cunts and say he's the greatest DM that has ever lived. For me, if he's going to play that far back, I'd like to see him next to someone that can help the defence when they're in the shit, whether that's Can or someone else (not Lucas or Allen). I'd like to see him relieved of pretty much all defensive duties altogether.
If we're going to play with this midfield triangle in a regular/inverted fashion, I'm guessing he's better suited to playing at the arse end of it, as everyone says 'his legs have gone'.

 

[gkmacca]

I don't mind him continuing for a bit with competitive internationals - they're good tests, as Pirlo shows. It's all the meaningless friendlies that need to be binned. If Hodgson has any sense (what a thought!) he'll try to do this deal with him.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I thought about RB but he's not got the legs for there anymore, especially not with how Rodgers plays.

Nah, I was just half-serious about it, though I do think he'll make a better RB even at this age than Johnson.

Anyway, it's not happening. Holding CM is where he's going to be. Like in the last season, he can perform that role provided he gets the help from the pair / trio of CMs ahead of him doing the work harassing opponents, winning possession or funneling them into a cul de sac with him helping to intercept / block and nick the ball off to start a counter. If those guys slack off on that (mainly Coutinho - Henderson, Allen and Sterling have almost always been exemplary in doing that), then Gerrard has a hard time because he then gets pulled out to cover and gets turned / passed too easily due to his reduced speed these days.

Put the ball at his feet but don't give him too much time to think about what to do with it, and we get a beaut of a pass usually.

 

[Judge Jules]

I thought Coutinho was starting to improve in that respect as the season went on. Agree otherwise - good post.

 

[dantes]

Nah, I was just half-serious about it, though I do think he'll make a better RB even at this age than Johnson.

Anyway, it's not happening. Holding CM is where he's going to be. Like in the last season, he can perform that role provided he gets the help from the pair / trio of CMs ahead of him doing the work harassing opponents, winning possession or funneling them into a cul de sac with him helping to intercept / block and nick the ball off to start a counter. If those guys slack off on that (mainly Coutinho - Henderson, Allen and Sterling have almost always been exemplary in doing that), then Gerrard has a hard time because he then gets pulled out to cover and gets turned / passed too easily due to his reduced speed these days.

Put the ball at his feet but don't give him too much time to think about what to do with it, and we get a beaut of a pass usually.

This should have happened as soon as he started approaching his 30's. Instead he's been run into the ground having to carry our attack season after season just so we can finish 4th/5th/6th and worse. Those injuries which have cost him his pace and his shooting ability could have been prevented.

 

[gene hughes]

I sort of wish he'd retire. I wasn't that impressed with him last season and I think he'll be worse this season.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I thought Coutinho was starting to improve in that respect as the season went on. Agree otherwise - good post.

He did; he's improved a lot in that respect but it's still a matter of consistent application ala Henderson or Sterling. My observation is that Coutinho's quite an interesting case where, if his attacking game isn't going for him, it often seems to also drag down his tenacity and "defensive" work. When his harassment and pressing is going well though, his attacking game also flourishes. It's just a matter of getting a good level of consistency for him. He's a sweet boy, I like him and he's going to get better and better. 🙂

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

I think he can do the role he's doing now in some games, not all, there might be a call for us to be more solid in the middle, we lost it there against Chelsea and City last season - two crunch games, so perhaps that's where Can comes in, assuming he's ready.

Are you on about the 2 away games over Xmas? because Gerrard didn't play in those games.

After those 2 games when Gerrard came back and moved into that role the only really dodgy game was Villa at home where we were all over the place for that first half, after that the team flew with Gerrard in that holding role dictating games from deep with the 2 sets of legs ahead of him doing some of his work for him, that team played some of the best football that a Liverpool team has ever played.

I sort of despair a little bit with the negative slant on Gerrard in that role and even some saying we'd be better off without him, i can't help but think that is a really clueless opinion and wonder if people actually watch the games, we lost once the whole time Gerrard played there and won 14/15 games completely destroying teams including thrashing some of the best teams, seriously what more do people want or expect?, without that switch we really wouldn't have went so close to the title, remember when we were playing Lucas/Henderson next to him early on in the season with 1 in front or Gerrard further forward? it wasn't good and didn't really work, when we moved Gerrard back on his own it was 5th gear full steam ahead.

Teams were attacking us and getting joy mainly down our sides last season for obvious reasons, we were not getting ripped apart through the middle, that's a myth, if there is some stats then i'd love to see where our goals were conceded from from January onwards, the majority were created from the sides or brainfart individual fuck ups like Kolo/Mig.

If the team and Gerrard had carried on their inconsistent and sometimes unconvincing ways from the start of the season to Xmas then for sure i would be questioning Gerrard but after finding a formula that worked out so brilliantly for us and Gerrard then why would anyone want to spoil and rip that that?, i don't get it, how does it make sense to do that?

Look at our defenders for the reason we concede so many goals, Johnson is a joke who can't even do the basics right, Mig is simply unconvincing in goal for us, Flanno was a kid thrown in at the deepend, Sakho has been stop start and hasn't settled, Skrtel was brilliant last season but he still made a lot of fuck ups, Agger is also unconvincing, get some better players back there, especially fullbacks and watch us improve defensively.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah, you're right about the City away game, I was thinking more about the home game against Chelsea, though you could argue it nearly cost us at home against City too. We've looked vulnerable there and at right back, particularly on the counter.

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

Yeah, the Chelsea home game we all know what happened, we weren't exactly under pressure from them in that game.

City at home we pretty much cruised that first half without trouble but then David Silva went into god mode for half an hour after the break and caused us all sorts of grief along with Milner, both their goals came from the sides.

Another thing is even if it is the case we concede a few more goals with that midfield set up then its still easily worth it to keep up our attacking style scoring all those goals and winning lots of games, obviously Suarez was a massive help to that but we'll have to wait and see how much we miss him.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

After those 2 games when Gerrard came back and moved into that role the only really dodgy game was Villa at home where we were all over the place for that first half, after that the team flew with Gerrard in that holding role dictating games from deep with the 2 sets of legs ahead of him doing some of his work for him, that team played some of the best football that a Liverpool team has ever played.

And in that Villa game, Gerrard wasn't helped by Rodgers' game plan in the first half at all. He put Gerrard in a midfield two with (I think) Henderson by his side, and we went with a flat 4-4-2 against a pacy Villa side. We were totally overrun down the middle and Gerrard was criticized for his inability to play a holding midfield role.

It was really harsh on him, as for a season and a half prior to that match (i.e. since Rodgers took over), Gerrard had shown that he no longer had the pace and quickness of turn to consistently guard anyone with a decent burst of pace surging past him down the centre, and that was with him playing further up. The first half was set up for Gerrard to fail, and only with Lucas' introduction in the second half did we get a foothold and get back into the game.

All credit to Gerrard for fighting through it and coming back to show he could do the job there given the right setup and support. I'd written him off due to his injuries before Rodgers arrived, but he's surprised me by returning two solid seasons. He'll decline in the next few seasons but I hope with the right conditioning and rest, he'll be able to play on longer at a good level.

I also hope Rossiter gets a chance to play a few games beside him at some point - I bet that would be a really wonderful learning experience for the youngster.

 

[gkmacca]

Before he really gets good at his position, he needs two centre backs behind him who are really good at their positions. You can't really look at Gerrard in isolation. He's had to learn a new role when there's been chaos at times behind him, and that just won't work. Get a stable back four and he'll look much better in front of it.

 

[Markeh]

Imo Gerrard biggest struggle at this stage is his athleticism, he has definitely lost speed and he seems to cover less ground, although I think his distance stats are alright he's just not pressing / closing down people or sprinting much. But this has to be the ideal scenario for him, he might have 2 of the top 5 runners in the league beside him, Lallana is also the quickest in the top 20 according to EA sports performance index:

Games Distance (m) No. of sprints Avg top speed Avg speed
Mark Noble West Ham 33 38,0927.0 1350 29.91 7.57
Mile Jedinak Crystal Palace 32 36,4319.9 1224 30.89 7.21
Steve Sidwell Fulham 33 36,1070.8 1420 30.66 7.39
Jordan Henderson Liverpool 33 35,9080.0 1725 31.98 7.27
Adam Lallana Southampton 33 35,8094.8 1818 31.75 7.71

If you don't fancy running much, there's nothing like having a couple of lads beside you that don't stop. Allen also covers a lot of ground if he were to play. I'd guess Rodgers is happy to play Gerrard in the same position next season and hopefully these lads around him, backup from Emre Can, a better understanding at center back and two decent fullbacks will give us an effective captain and another season of good football.

 

[IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts]

The Bench

 

[moron]

The Bench

Sadly - it may be the case halfway through next season or a bit part player at most. I think the future is going to be Henderson, Allen, and Lala (sorry cant be arsed with his name). He may become a liability in high paced games.

Moron

 

[localny]

I sort of wish he'd retire. I wasn't that impressed with him last season and I think he'll be worse this season.

Really gene? Or are you whooshing. He was great for spells, but of course there's always that defensive vulnerability

 

[Halmeister]

I actually think he could do a job still off the striker as Rafa, I assume, had initially planned. He could play a sort of "Totti" role, and not have to move much, while threading balls through, and scoring goals as he's still one of the best finishers in this squad.

However, as Macca has pointed out, I think/hope he will grow into this role. He needs to start thinking more callously and tactically, whereas in the past he was more gung ho in his approach.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan is going to flounce in here and call you all cunts and say he's the greatest DM that has ever lived. For me, if he's going to play that far back, I'd like to see him next to someone that can help the defence when they're in the shit, whether that's Can or someone else (not Lucas or Allen). I'd like to see him relieved of pretty much all defensive duties altogether.
If we're going to play with this midfield triangle in a regular/inverted fashion, I'm guessing he's better suited to playing at the arse end of it, as everyone says 'his legs have gone'.

What?

I've been highly critical of Gerrard as a DM. I'm really not in love with having him there at all.