Deja Vu

[kule]

Anyone else having a little bit of deja vu? Didn't we go through all this with Houllier?

We generally play a very tight ship, bit defensive but get good results except when we can't break down the bus tactics. We get to 2nd in the league then something makes the manager realise that actually that the system he's been working towards for the last few years aint going to work - so then he changes to an attacking philosophy and the wheels start to fall off a bit...

Don't get me wrong I think we play a lot better with Benitez and some of the players he's bought are fantastic and I don't think we should sack him just because of a few bad results however some of the similarities of what's happening just makes me chuckle...

 

[Terrier]

Bollocks, we never scored 16 goals in 4 games under Houllier.

We never outscored the Scum or the Arse over the course of a season under Houllier.

Our attacking play nowadays is generally excellent. I would say we're almost as entertaining as Uncle Roy's side, if not more - cause we actually win games nowadays.

 

[kule]

You must've missed the "Don't get me wrong I think we play a lot better with Benitez" bit of my post...

I just find it amusing that we seem to have come full circle to a degree - hopefully Benitez can pull it together and move us forward as a more attacking side...

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Terrier link=topic=36284.msg957833#msg957833 date=1254736740]
Bollocks, we never scored 16 goals in 4 games under Houllier.

We never outscored the Scum or the Arse over the course of a season under Houllier.

Our attacking play nowadays is generally excellent. I would say we're almost as entertaining as Uncle Roy's side, if not more - cause we actually win games nowadays.
[/quote]

We did have some high scoring games under Houllier and we did outscore Arsenal in 2001

Our attacking play is good yes but apparently not against any decent teams. Still, at least we are beating the shit teams now whereas we would often draw last year so its not all doom and gloom

 

[Rosco]

It could eventually come full circle, seeing as we ended up paying out 18m in compensation to get rid of Houllier and Co.

Rafa's contract has about that much left owing.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36284.msg958130#msg958130 date=1254767358]
It could eventually come full circle, seeing as we ended up paying out 18m in compensation to get rid of Houllier and Co.

Rafa's contract has about that much left owing.
[/quote]

Unless Benitez resigns we'll be with him for another 3 seasons at least.

Not sure he deserved such a long contract but that's football.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36284.msg958136#msg958136 date=1254767557]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36284.msg958130#msg958130 date=1254767358]
It could eventually come full circle, seeing as we ended up paying out 18m in compensation to get rid of Houllier and Co.

Rafa's contract has about that much left owing.
[/quote]

Unless Benitez resigns we'll be with him for another 3 seasons at least.

Not sure he deserved such a long contract but that's football.
[/quote]

It's not football, it's silly decision making.

 

[Squiggles]

Maybe, but the owners crisis played nicely into his hand when contract talks came around.

An extension of 1-2 years would have been my idea.

 

[rage]

rafa's gone off the boil since we gave him that stupid contract. he knows he's virtually untouchable and imo that isn't a good thing for any manager.

houllier wasn't as bad as is often made out anymore than rafa is as good as some would have us believe.

so far houllier failed and rafa is failing.

on reflection i thought we overachieved the season houllier finished second and underachieved when rafa finished second

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958144#msg958144 date=1254767965]
rafa's gone off the boil since we gave him that stupid contract. he knows he's virtually untouchable and imo that isn't a good thing for any manager.

houllier wasn't as bad as is often made out anymore than rafa is as good as some would have us believe.

so far houllier failed and rafa is failing.

on reflection i thought we overachieved the season houllier finished second and underachieved when rafa finished second
[/quote]

This is your new tedious angle, deciding that upon reflection you are going to put things into historical perspective with an even handed look at houllier?

Given your reaction to Rafa's "underachieving" with our first credible title challenge in years and years, I can't imagine how intolerable you would have been at the end of Houllier's regime, so don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36284.msg958142#msg958142 date=1254767907]
Maybe, but the owners crisis played nicely into his hand when contract talks came around.

An extension of 1-2 years would have been my idea.
[/quote]

Can't disagree with that.

Rafa played his hand very well at that time.

 

[Farkmaster]

Given the instability of our ownership situation, even if I thought as some do, that Rafa is a good but ultimately flawed manager unlikely to ever win us the league, I still would think it made sense to opt for a longer term of stability on the footballing side, over an unknown. That unknown, as we now see, wouldn't have been able to stamp an imprint on the team in terms of purchasing anyway.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36284.msg958145#msg958145 date=1254768168]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958144#msg958144 date=1254767965]
rafa's gone off the boil since we gave him that stupid contract. he knows he's virtually untouchable and imo that isn't a good thing for any manager.

houllier wasn't as bad as is often made out anymore than rafa is as good as some would have us believe.

so far houllier failed and rafa is failing.

on reflection i thought we overachieved the season houllier finished second and underachieved when rafa finished second
[/quote]

This is your new tedious angle, deciding that upon reflection you are going to put things into historical perspective with an even handed look at houllier?

Given your reaction to Rafa's "underachieving" with our first credible title challenge in years and years, I can't imagine how intolerable you would have been at the end of Houllier's regime, so don't pretend otherwise.
[/quote]

i think its an honest and indeed fair reflection. rafa's team last season was far better than the team houllier finished second with. the season houllier finished second we were never really in command, last season we had an opportunity to pull away and blew it. not really sure what exactly you're disagreeing with here.

i did want houllier out, indeed i think he was given a season too many. i want rafa out and think that he also will be at least given one season too many.

the likelihood is that he will fail to win the league this season going off what we've managed so far. i'd sack him at the end of this season if that is the case but in all likelihood i think the man will be here next season as well.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958153#msg958153 date=1254768686]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36284.msg958145#msg958145 date=1254768168]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958144#msg958144 date=1254767965]
rafa's gone off the boil since we gave him that stupid contract. he knows he's virtually untouchable and imo that isn't a good thing for any manager.

houllier wasn't as bad as is often made out anymore than rafa is as good as some would have us believe.

so far houllier failed and rafa is failing.

on reflection i thought we overachieved the season houllier finished second and underachieved when rafa finished second
[/quote]

This is your new tedious angle, deciding that upon reflection you are going to put things into historical perspective with an even handed look at houllier?

Given your reaction to Rafa's "underachieving" with our first credible title challenge in years and years, I can't imagine how intolerable you would have been at the end of Houllier's regime, so don't pretend otherwise.
[/quote]

i think its an honest and indeed fair reflection. rafa's team last season was far better than the team houllier finished second with. the season houllier finished second we were never really in command, last season we had an opportunity to pull away and blew it. not really sure what exactly you're disagreeing with here.

i did want houllier out, indeed i think he was given a season too many. i want rafa out and think that he also will be at least given one season too many.

the likelihood is that he will fail to win the league this season going off what we've managed so far. i'd sack him at the end of this season if that is the case but in all likelihood i think the man will be here next season as well.
[/quote]

Given the financial of our team, we can't afford to sack Rafa, are you so oblivious that you don't understand that? Sacking Houllier was very costly, Rafa would be even more so, and it certainly would explode the tight budget we've allotted, while introducing even more instability into the club.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958153#msg958153 date=1254768686]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36284.msg958145#msg958145 date=1254768168]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958144#msg958144 date=1254767965]
rafa's gone off the boil since we gave him that stupid contract. he knows he's virtually untouchable and imo that isn't a good thing for any manager.

houllier wasn't as bad as is often made out anymore than rafa is as good as some would have us believe.

so far houllier failed and rafa is failing.

on reflection i thought we overachieved the season houllier finished second and underachieved when rafa finished second
[/quote]

This is your new tedious angle, deciding that upon reflection you are going to put things into historical perspective with an even handed look at houllier?

Given your reaction to Rafa's "underachieving" with our first credible title challenge in years and years, I can't imagine how intolerable you would have been at the end of Houllier's regime, so don't pretend otherwise.
[/quote]

i think its an honest and indeed fair reflection. rafa's team last season was far better than the team houllier finished second with. the season houllier finished second we were never really in command, last season we had an opportunity to pull away and blew it. not really sure what exactly you're disagreeing with here.

i did want houllier out, indeed i think he was given a season too many. i want rafa out and think that he also will be at least given one season too many.

the likelihood is that he will fail to win the league this season going off what we've managed so far. i'd sack him at the end of this season if that is the case but in all likelihood i think the man will be here next season as well.
[/quote]

Rafa's team was Rafa's team, how can you underperform with a team of your own making, which was missing its most potent attacking players, for much of the season, causing draws which lost us the league?

It was our best opportunity in years, Rafa brought us there, yet you can't see that he's done any good for the club? You concede he's made marked improvements in agreeing with the premise that it was our most credible challenge in years, but you have decided it would be impossible for him to improve us that little margin further?

 

[rage]

make all the excuses you want. we should have still won some of them games even without gerrard or torres last season. we didn't set up to win them.

oh and as for it'll cost too much to sack him and the future is unknown so its better to stay the way we are. you keep telling yourself that.

as far as i'm concerned there are considerable similarities between rafa's and houllier's period in charge and i do believe that we had a better chance to win the league last year than houiller did when he came second.

and as for improving that little bit further, well it ain't gonna happen this season.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958228#msg958228 date=1254776210]
make all the excuses you want. we should have still won some of them games even without gerrard or torres last season. we didn't set up to win them.

oh and as for it'll cost too much to sack him and the future is unknown so its better to stay the way we are. you keep telling yourself that.

as far as i'm concerned there are considerable similarities between rafa's and houllier's period in charge and i do believe that we had a better chance to win the league last year than houiller did when he came second.

and as for improving that little bit further, well it ain't gonna happen this season.
[/quote]

Why don't you actually listen and respond?

It is undeniable that buying out Rafa's contract would cost a lot of money that we don't have the budget for. Any incoming manager wouldn't have a lot of money to spend, and if they did it would be at the expense of the clubs financial security, barring additional investment/ownership change.

That is simply an undeniable fact. Ignoring it and bleating "Rafa should be sacked at the end of the year" is thick.

Not setting up to win those games we lost? Some errors were certainly made, and many on the forum including myself have pointed them out, repeatedly, but in the context of an array of explanation. The fact is that whenever we lose a game, your simplistic analysis will always put it down to be an error in managerial decisionmaking, and any time anyone points to additional or alternative reasons for a loss, you paint those reasons as excuses. Rafa puts us in a position where you expect us to win the league, where assholes such as yourself can claim not winning it is underperforming, but rather than credit him for those increased ambitions, you somehow are comfortable faulting him for it.

There is no comparison anymore between Houllier and Rafa, other than a lazy comparison. Rafa has enjoyed sustained development and stability, there is no evidence as yet to suggest he'll succeed on the level we'd really love, however there's even less evidence to suggest we are now headed in the complete wrong direction, 8 games into a season after our best with Rafa at the head, and our best in the league in years and years. If your crude comparison is that Rafa this year is Houllier after his best season, not only are their other contributing factors (financial backing) that problematize that comparison, is is also the case that is just based on your extrapolating a downward trend from 8 games into a tough schedule.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36284.msg958232#msg958232 date=1254777155]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958228#msg958228 date=1254776210]
make all the excuses you want. we should have still won some of them games even without gerrard or torres last season. we didn't set up to win them.

oh and as for it'll cost too much to sack him and the future is unknown so its better to stay the way we are. you keep telling yourself that.

as far as i'm concerned there are considerable similarities between rafa's and houllier's period in charge and i do believe that we had a better chance to win the league last year than houiller did when he came second.

and as for improving that little bit further, well it ain't gonna happen this season.
[/quote]

Why don't you actually listen and respond?

It is undeniable that buying out Rafa's contract would cost a lot of money that we don't have the budget for. Any incoming manager wouldn't have a lot of money to spend, and if they did it would be at the expense of the clubs financial security, barring additional investment/ownership change.

That is simply an undeniable fact. Ignoring it and bleating "Rafa should be sacked at the end of the year" is thick.

Not setting up to win those games we lost? Some errors were certainly made, but the fact is that whenever we lose a game, your simplistic analysis will always put it down to be an error in managerial decisionmaking, and any time anyone points to additional or alternative reasons for a loss, you paint those reasons as excuses.

There is no comparison anymore between Houllier and Rafa, other than a lazy comparison. Rafa has enjoyed sustained development and stability, there is no evidence as yet to suggest he'll succeed on the level we'd really love, however there's even less evidence to suggest we are now headed in the complete wrong direction, 8 games into a season after our best with Rafa at the head, and our best in the league in years and years. If your crude comparison is that Rafa this year is Houllier after his best season, not only are their other contributing factors (financial backing) that problematize that comparison, is is also the case that is just based on your extrapolating a downward trend from 8 games into a tough schedule.
[/quote]

tough schedule my arse. oh and i can take a defeat as much as anyone else when we try to win a game. spurs last season for instance we were just unlucky.

the responsibility stops with the manager that's why managers get sacked.

oh and imo i think that we can challenge with this crop of players and even if we have to pay out rafa we can sell the likes of lucas, doseena, riera, babel, voronin, el zahr and buy two quality players added to whatever transfer budget we'll have left.

for every reason you come up with to keep rafa i can give you a plausible reason why him leaving wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[Markeh]

i do feel deja vu

Houllier finished second, had a bit of cash to push for the top spot and fcuked it up by signing shit players
Benitez finished second, had no cash to make the team that little bit better and may well come up short :'(

its such a shame really

 

[Tinto]

There are more differences than there are similarities.

If Torres, Reina and Stevie wants to quit as they don't think they can fulfill their ambitions with Liverpool, then I will admit to feeling deja vu.

Also, under Ged we were top and unbeaten until November in the year after he came second.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36284.msg958247#msg958247 date=1254778633]

If Torres, Reina and Stevie wants to quit as they don't think they can fulfill their ambitions with Liverpool, then I will admit to feeling deja vu.


[/quote]

What about Mascherano and Riera ?

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36284.msg958251#msg958251 date=1254778774]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36284.msg958247#msg958247 date=1254778633]

If Torres, Reina and Stevie wants to quit as they don't think they can fulfill their ambitions with Liverpool, then I will admit to feeling deja vu.


[/quote]

What about Mascherano and Riera ?
[/quote]

I like Mascher but he's not an untouchable for me... I think we could replace him. If that's what I think about Mascher, there's no need to telly you what I think of Riera is there?

Whilst I do think Mascher will be leaving us next Summer, I don't think that it is because he feels he can't achieve anything with us. And he certainly isn't too good for the team we have currently.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958235#msg958235 date=1254777735]
oh and imo i think that we can challenge with this crop of players and even if we have to pay out rafa we can sell the likes of lucas, doseena, riera, babel, voronin, el zahr and buy two quality players added to whatever transfer budget we'll have left.

for every reason you come up with to keep rafa i can give you a plausible reason why him leaving wouldn't be the end of the world.

[/quote]

Try to pay attention. Paying off Rafa would eat the brunt of that transfer budget, that's my whole point. If Rafa hadn't won the CL, you'd have more easily noticed the massive payments we had to deal with due to Houllier leaving. Ignoring the fact that any top class incoming manager is going to be somewhat turned off by ownership that doesn't communicate, and aren't currently in a sustainable business model unless they find investment, this new manager has to do better than rafa using only player sales to fuel his improvement... sounds like a fun task.

In your theoretical you've sold both our options at LW, and our forward bench (for not very much money), and you can magically afford two quality players with it, which would leave us desperately thin.

What budget do you think those players sales would raise? And which manager would you have come in for the privilege of spending that massive war chest on two quality players (leaving us thin in two positions)? Oh, and while you are at it, what manager wants to come to do that, in a not particularly stable environment, knowing that if he does achieve his best ever league finish, he may be give nothing to improve the following summer, yet threatened with the sack if he doesn't win it the following year?

 

[rage]

we are liverpool. there will be a queue of managers wanting the job.

people like you feel that we should be grateful to have rafa. i think rafa should count his lucky stars to have had the chance.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958261#msg958261 date=1254779625]
we are liverpool. there will be a queue of managers wanting the job.

people like you feel that we should be grateful to have rafa. i think rafa should count his lucky stars to have had the chance.
[/quote]

You don't know what the fuck I feel, you just pigeonhole me into your stupid strawman argument so you can rail against it. You haven't yet responded in any detailed way to any point I've made.

There aren't a queue of managers that are better than Rafa. There aren't ever a queue of quality managers available at any given time, their quality generally leads them to have a job, you know? What queue of top flight managers will there be next year, which is the time table you've proposed, who you can reasonably expect to win us a league in short order?

 

[Rafiagra]

Bollocks to déjà vu

We are far better than we were under Houllier. Rafa's signings have been far superior.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=36284.msg958300#msg958300 date=1254784870]
Bollocks to déjà vu

We are far better than we were under Houllier. Rafa's signings have been far superior.
[/quote]

reina > dudek (although dudek has a champions league medal and was exceptional in his first few seasons)
hyypia & henchoz > skertel, agger, greek lad, pelashito
finnan > everyone rafa's played there till he spent 18 million on johnson but i think marcus b was better than johnson
riise > insua and on par with aurelio and as dor the fat italian
didi = masch
igor > lucas although no one is as shit as diao
kewell > riera
garcia/yossi > smicer
torres > cisse, spit
baros > voronin
kuyt > heskey
pongolle and alt > n'gog, el zahr, leto, gonzales, nunez
alonso> anyone houllier had in the team


have i missed anyone? in any case not all of rafa's signings have been far superior

 

[SummerOnions]

Behave, Kewell was largely dogshite for us.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36284.msg958306#msg958306 date=1254785618]
[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=36284.msg958300#msg958300 date=1254784870]
Bollocks to déjà vu

We are far better than we were under Houllier. Rafa's signings have been far superior.
[/quote]

reina > dudek (although dudek has a champions league medal and was exceptional in his first few seasons)
hyypia & henchoz > skertel, agger, greek lad, pelashito
finnan > everyone rafa's played there till he spent 18 million on johnson but i think marcus b was better than johnson
riise > insua and on par with aurelio and as dor the fat italian
didi = masch
igor > lucas although no one is as shit as diao
kewell > riera
garcia/yossi > smicer
torres > cisse, spit
baros > voronin
kuyt > heskey
pongolle and alt > n'gog, el zahr, leto, gonzales, nunez
alonso> anyone houllier had in the team


have i missed anyone? in any case not all of rafa's signings have been far superior
[/quote]

What a heap of laughable one-eyed bollocks.

 

[Farkmaster]

I'm waiting for a response to any one of a number of specific critiques I leveled at your contention that Rafa should be fired at the end of the season should he fail to win the league.

Here's a hint, none of them should involve a response that uses the word excuse or lucas.