Daniel Agger

[StevieM]

Just look at the best defenders in the English dame over the last decade - Hyppia, Ferdinand, Carragher, Vidic, Terry, Campbell, etc - and in each case it's the fact that they are good, solid defenders that's of prime importance.

Pace & and technical ability on the ball are great attributes to have, but in the English game strength, aerial ability, positioning & reading of the game are more important.

Neither Skrtel or Agger are bad players, but they're never going to be at the absolute top of the game because their defending isn't consistently good enough.

 

[Ryan]

I usually find myself agreeing with you rurik, but I think you're becoming intoxicated by the breadth of your football knowledge.

The football world may well understand the need for ball-playing CBs, but we're talking about the Premier League. I notice none of your examples come from here. How is it that arguably the best team in Premier League history (and an archetypal possession team) coped with a central pairing of Toure and Campbell? And how many of these essential ball-playing CBs can you name from successful sides in this league over the last decade? The truth is, the vast majority of the Premier League's best defenders are of an entirely different breed. They are physical specimens, who first and foremost excel at defending. They dominate in the air, they read the game well, and they are strong in the tackle.

It's all about context. You are talking about very technical leagues (and in particular Spain, where the technical ability is streets ahead of the Premier League). Technical ability is obviously much more of a necessity in La Liga, because that's the nature of the Spanish game. If you don't have it, you're already at a disadvantage. In England, the ferocious pace and physicality of the game require a different set of attributes. Technical players are much fewer, and are largely distributed in midfield and attack. And even then they're supplemented by Brits, who by nature are less technical and more physical. Of course, there are exceptions, but even in the modern game the majority of central defenders in this country are more brutish than exotic. It's clear that you admire Barca (and who doesn't) but it's important to remember that while we are trying to implement possession football, we are not, and never will be, a Barca clone, and we're not playing in Spain. Indeed, the most notable example of the ball-playing CB you speak of is Piqué, who was a failure here. David Luiz may yet find his feet, but he looks every bit as shaky as Piqué did here, and his languid style looks much better suited to the more rhythmic Spanish game.

Do not misunderstand me - I am not decrying the value of ball-playing CBs, or defenders with technical ability. I think they're great. But this discussion was borne from the assertion that Agger's attacking qualities somehow compensate for his defensive frailties. They don't. It's all about priorities. As far as I'm concerned, a defender in the Premier League must first be good at the fundamentals of defending. Looking sexy on the ball is of secondary importance.

That's the best post in this thread, tand the last line is the crux of the matter for me.

Best 3 CB's in the last 10 years in British football for me? Terry, Carragher, Vidic. Not a 'cultured, ball player' amongst them.

 

[Farkmaster]

No Carvalho?

 

[Ryan]

No Carvalho?

You could argue he's in amongst that group, same for Sol Campbell and a few others I suppose. But the point's the same.

 

[Farkmaster]

Yea, the thing is, we seem to have gone into an interesting diversion about what we generally look for in a CB, when Agger is neither productive going forward in the category of the other people mentioned, nor is he in the mould of the dominating colossi.

 

[dmishra]

That's the best post in this thread, tand the last line is the crux of the matter for me.

Best 3 CB's in the last 10 years in British football for me? Terry, Carragher, Vidic. Not a 'cultured, ball player' amongst them.

Where the fuck is Hyypia?

 

[Ryan]

Where the fuck is Hyypia?

I guess cos he hasn't played for us in 4/5 years, I didn't include him.

No reflection on how brilliant he is/was.

 

[dmishra]

Ok. Hyypia, Terry, Vidic the best in the last decade for me. Carra, Carvalho, Henchoz and Ferdinand were all excellent partners.

Kompany's the best around these days.

 

[i_rushie]

It's not new but Ffs, the ball playing defenders of yesteryear and modern greats could DEFEND CONSISTENTLY

Agger can't. He's prone to lapses

I'm actually reeling as to how this topic is being discussed.

"We want CBs who are primarily great defenders. We like CBs capable of passing the ball, but not at the expense of their defensive qualities."

"But Agger passes the ball so beautifully!"

"We've got no doubts passing is a desirable attribute. Greats like Jockey and Sami could defend imperiously and pass."

"Yes well, but Agger passes so calmly!"

"We'd just like him to defend better. Until then we should aspire to better CBs."

"But Agger passes the ball so well!"

Paraphrasing of course, but have I missed anything?

 

[mark1975]

I usually find myself agreeing with you rurik, but I think you're becoming intoxicated by the breadth of your football knowledge.

The football world may well understand the need for ball-playing CBs, but we're talking about the Premier League. I notice none of your examples come from here. How is it that arguably the best team in Premier League history (and an archetypal possession team) coped with a central pairing of Toure and Campbell? And how many of these essential ball-playing CBs can you name from successful sides in this league over the last decade? The truth is, the vast majority of the Premier League's best defenders are of an entirely different breed. They are physical specimens, who first and foremost excel at defending. They dominate in the air, they read the game well, and they are strong in the tackle.

It's all about context. You are talking about very technical leagues (and in particular Spain, where the technical ability is streets ahead of the Premier League). Technical ability is obviously much more of a necessity in La Liga, because that's the nature of the Spanish game. If you don't have it, you're already at a disadvantage. In England, the ferocious pace and physicality of the game require a different set of attributes. Technical players are much fewer, and are largely distributed in midfield and attack. And even then they're supplemented by Brits, who by nature are less technical and more physical. Of course, there are exceptions, but even in the modern game the majority of central defenders in this country are more brutish than exotic. It's clear that you admire Barca (and who doesn't) but it's important to remember that while we are trying to implement possession football, we are not, and never will be, a Barca clone, and we're not playing in Spain. Indeed, the most notable example of the ball-playing CB you speak of is Piqué, who was a failure here. David Luiz may yet find his feet, but he looks every bit as shaky as Piqué did here, and his languid style looks much better suited to the more rhythmic Spanish game.

Do not misunderstand me - I am not decrying the value of ball-playing CBs, or defenders with technical ability. I think they're great. But this discussion was borne from the assertion that Agger's attacking qualities somehow compensate for his defensive frailties. They don't. It's all about priorities. As far as I'm concerned, a defender in the Premier League must first be good at the fundamentals of defending. Looking sexy on the ball is of secondary importance.

That's what I said!

But put much, much better. Tsk.

 

[keniget]

I think everyone is getting away with the idea of Agger - not just his fan club.

What does "bringing the ball out of the defence" actually mean? If we're supposed to believe that it's the sort of role you see CBs performing at Barca as Rurik described, I'd say fine, but it's not what our CBs do.

Agger and Skrtel more often than not offload responsibility to the midfield or the fullbacks and if they do have this wonderful ability on the ball, we don't very often get to see it bar the odd marauding run, which contrary to what some people are suggesting doesn't really happen that often.

 

[mark1975]

Of course it's getting exaggerated both ways, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. He's a good centre back who's comfortable in possession. He makes mistakes defensively, and his forward play consists of occasionally carrying the ball into the opponents half and drawing a foul or playing the ball, NOT playing Hollywood ball after Hollywood ball and smashing the ball in from 30 yards, as Kris often thinks 6 league goals in 7 years eludes to. Funnily enough, Skrtel has scored one more league goal in a year less. Just goes to show, the whole bollocks about him being this great goalscoring defender is largely hyperbole.

Overall

2006-2013 Agger - 6 in the league, 11 overall
2007-2013 Skrtel - 7 in the league, 9 overall.

*shrugs*

 

[the_khl]

Lot of good posts from either side of the pond.

@Del You claim that the Spanish league is far superior to the English when it comes to the technical side of the game. I beg to differ. Once that was true but not anymore (Messi and Barca aside).

A lot of the best players in the Spanish league has been bought by the top teams in England over the past years and surely that has evened out that gap and made the necesseity for big, powerful types in your defense less important, at least in some games, compared to defenders with different sets of attributes?

The likes of Mata, Aguero, Silva and so on demands differently from your defenders than say Kenwyne Jones, Fletcher and whatever else Stoke throws at you

I want my defenders to defend first and foremost, like everyone else, in my opinion however a lot of posters seems to neglect the importance of having more balanced defenders when it comes to set of skills. In my opinion, the greatest defenders in the world in ten years time, will be even better on the ball than the likes of Pique, Agger and Hummels today.

If we can agree that more than a few of the best English CBs over the past years would struggle in La Liga, we should also be able to agree that they'd struggle in England now that the best continental players are piling up.

 

[the_khl]

Of course it's getting exaggerated both ways, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. He's a good centre back who's comfortable in possession. He makes mistakes defensively, and his forward play consists of occasionally carrying the ball into the opponents half and drawing a foul or playing the ball, NOT playing Hollywood ball after Hollywood ball and smashing the ball in from 30 yards, as Kris often thinks 6 league goals in 7 years eludes to. Funnily enough, Skrtel has scored one more league goal in a year less. Just goes to show, the whole bollocks about him being this great goalscoring defender is largely hyperbole.

Overall

2006-2013 Agger - 6 in the league, 11 overall
2007-2013 Skrtel - 7 in the league, 9 overall.

*shrugs*

Has anyone called him a great goalscoring defender? I haven't. He scores a goal now and then and has scored some very important ones for us in the past, but that's not by any means his greatest asset. I would personally like to see him chip in more.

 

[Modo]

Of course it's getting exaggerated both ways, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. He's a good centre back who's comfortable in possession. He makes mistakes defensively, and his forward play consists of occasionally carrying the ball into the opponents half and drawing a foul or playing the ball, NOT playing Hollywood ball after Hollywood ball and smashing the ball in from 30 yards, as Kris often thinks 6 league goals in 7 years eludes to. Funnily enough, Skrtel has scored one more league goal in a year less. Just goes to show, the whole bollocks about him being this great goalscoring defender is largely hyperbole.

Overall

2006-2013 Agger - 6 in the league, 11 overall
2007-2013 Skrtel - 7 in the league, 9 overall.

*shrugs*

Games?

 

[keniget]

Has anyone called him a great goalscoring defender? I haven't. He scores a goal now and then and has scored some very important ones for us in the past, but that's not by any means his greatest asset. I would personally like to see him chip in more.

Someone made a comment that Agger has been dining out on that West Ham goal for years and I think it's proven popular.

I wouldn't say the argument is about goal scoring no.

 

[the_khl]

I actually think it's weird that none of Agger or Skrtel has managed to score more to be honest. They both seem capable of a goal but very rarely it happens.

How much is down to our often very poor delivery from setpieces you reckon?

 

[Delinquent]

Lot of good posts from either side of the pond.

@Del You claim that the Spanish league is far superior to the English when it comes to the technical side of the game. I beg to differ. Once that was true but not anymore (Messi and Barca aside).

A lot of the best players in the Spanish league has been bought by the top teams in England over the past years and surely that has evened out that gap and made the necesseity for big, powerful types in your defense less important, at least in some games, compared to defenders with different sets of attributes?

The likes of Mata, Aguero, Silva and so on demands differently from your defenders than say Kenwyne Jones, Fletcher and whatever else Stoke throws at you

I want my defenders to defend first and foremost, like everyone else, in my opinion however a lot of posters seems to neglect the importance of having more balanced defenders when it comes to set of skills. In my opinion, the greatest defenders in the world in ten years time, will be even better on the ball than the likes of Pique, Agger and Hummels today.

If we can agree that more than a few of the best English CBs over the past years would struggle in La Liga, we should also be able to agree that they'd struggle in England now that the best continental players are piling up.

Firstly, as Farky has said, Agger isn't quite the Rolls Royce on the ball that you're making him out to be. He makes the occasional foray forward, but for the most part, he doesn't contribute a great deal to our attacking play. As such, I don't think he really deserves to be heralded as a new breed of footballer. He's a decent defender, who is comfortable on the ball. He's not unique in that respect.

And secondly, yes, the technical level of La Liga is still far better than the Premier League. I would've thought that was blindingly obvious. That's the way the Spanish (and the South Americans who flock there) play the game. They've had it drilled into them since they first kicked a ball. We have obviously closed the gap a little with the influx of continental players, but you cannot simply import an entire football philosophy. And you can't ignore that this is England, and there are quite a few British players here. That's simply not what we're good at. The pace of the game is quicker, it's more physical, and the players here reflect that. We may continue to close the gap on La Liga in terms of technical ability, but it's going to take many, many years (and a fundamental change in the way managers train their players) before we can hold a candle to them in that respect.

 

[the_khl]

Firstly, as Farky has said, Agger isn't quite the Rolls Royce on the ball that you're making him out to be. He makes the occasional foray forward, but for the most part, he doesn't contribute a great deal to our attacking play. As such, I don't think he really deserves to be heralded as a new breed of footballer. He's a decent defender, who is comfortable on the ball. He's not unique in that respect.

And secondly, yes, the technical level of La Liga is still far better than the Premier League. I would've thought that was blindingly obvious. That's the way the Spanish (and the South Americans who flock there) play the game. They've had it drilled into them since they first kicked a ball. We have obviously closed the gap a little with the influx of continental players, but you cannot simply import an entire football philosophy. And you can't ignore that this is England, and there are quite a few British players here. That's simply not what we're good at. The pace of the game is quicker, it's more physical, and the players here reflect that. We may continue to close the gap on La Liga in terms of technical ability, but it's going to take many, many years (and a fundamental change in the way managers train their players) before we can hold a candle to them in that respect.

Agger is one of the best defenders in the game today when it comes to sheer technique on the ball. I can't fathom you can't see that. Name the players that are his superior in that aspect if you care, enlighten me please.

And yes he's a very important player in our build-up play too and even though every opponent we play ALWAYS close down Agger, he often manages to bring the ball into the opposing half as well at some stages. He contributes a lot to our attacking play.

I am not heralding him as a new breed of footballer as such, but I believe we'll see many in his bracket as opposed to the few that was around when say Hansen graced the pitches.

I also believe you are underestimating the level of football in England too. Yes, there are still teams like Stoke around, but for every Stoke and Sunderland there's a Swansea or Wigan or Arsenal or Liverpool or Chelsea. Teams that mainly thrive to play football (at various levels of success course) on the floor, focusing on a technically based passing-game ahead of strengths, power and grit.

 

[Delinquent]

I think I'm done repeating myself now. Sorry.

 

[mark1975]

Agger is one of the best defenders in the game today when it comes to sheer technique on the ball. I can't fathom you can't see that. Name the players that are his superior in that aspect if you care, enlighten me please.

Have you listened to anything people have said in this thread Kris? No one is particularly debating his technical ability, other than the fact you keep fucking overplaying it.

 

[the_khl]

Have you listened to anything people have said in this thread Kris? No one is particularly debating his technical ability, other than the fact you keep fucking overplaying it.

Del is done repeating himself yet he's failed to answer a simple question.

Ryan has also elegantly avoided to answer the same question yet both keep harping on that's he's overrated and not good enough.

Name me the defenders in todays game that's superior to Agger when it comes to ability on the ball. Feel free to help him out.

 

[the_khl]

Are you all politicians in disguise?

 

[mark1975]

Del is done repeating himself yet he's failed to answer a simple question.

Ryan has also elegantly avoided to answer the same question yet both keep harping on that's he's overrated and not good enough.

Name me the defenders in todays game that's superior to Agger when it comes to ability on the ball. Feel free to help him out.

That wasn't the debate Kris, but there are plenty who are as good if not better. You're deliberately being obtuse. Name me defenders that are better defensively, post it page by page if you like. Take the Danish shades off first though.

 

[the_khl]

Still no names I see. Interesting.

With plenty being better on the ball than Agger it shouldn't be this hard for you. And I am mainly referring to Ryan and Del here who's both failed to give us a few examples.

 

[Fabio]

Who cares if other defenders play he ball better

Most defenders in the league defend better. That's the point we're making kris.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

This thread is becoming tedious. Who's this Kris guy btw?

 

[Fabio]

Vidic, Ferdinand, Luiz, kompany, lescott.

All as good on he ball, all better defenders.

 

[mark1975]

Still no names I see. Interesting.

With plenty being better on the ball than Agger it shouldn't be this hard for you. And I am mainly referring to Ryan and Del here who's both failed to give us a few examples.

FFS, for what it's worth, even though it's nothing to do with the POINT,

Ferdinand
Luiz
Carvalho
Pique
Cahill
Puyol

Probably loads of others, but they're all at least as competent on the ball. It's a pointless argument, as a defender he's just 'good'. So let's get this straight - you ARE creaming about how good he is going forward then while ignoring everything else?

Glad that's sorted

 

[Modo]

cahill??? LOL
Carvalho?

The only two players on that list who are better than Agger on the ball are Ferdinand and Luiz.
Here's a reminder of what he can do.