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1/9. Rebuilding again.

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keniget

keniget

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3 games.
2 goals scored.
7 goals conceded.
1 point.

So here we are again. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

There are some positives to take away from these first three games but I don't really think we can dress this up as anything other than an awful start.

I think that by now most of us accept that this team has got a long way to go before we can get back to the top and that patience is going to be required. The problem I have is that we keep shooting ourselves in the foot and making the rebuilding phase longer and more drawn out. And in doing so, the chances of us ever restoring the club to it's former glory decreases.

That's all I could think about in the second half of the last game. If we carry on fucking about in the middle of the table telling ourselves that we're not good enough and that we need some 3-5 year grand plan to rebuild, we're just going to stay where we are.

Perhaps I'm doom mongering or being overly negative, but I genuinely don't think I am. I look around our squad and don't see many top class players. Some of our better ones will be hitting 30 in a couple of years and we're going to struggle to build a quality team that we can keep together. Look at the difficulty Arsene Wenger has had in keeping his players and they're in the CL!

It is infuriating because with a couple of decent additions in attack we could've been ready to achieve something this season. As it stands, it looks like we'll once again be bemoaning our ineptitude in the transfer market. We all knew that we'd struggle without attacking reinforcements and lo and behold that is exactly how things have turned out.

We probably looked at our best so far against City but the script never seems to change. We looked susceptible to mistakes at the back in every game and struggle massively to create in the final third.

Is there room for optimism? Can we expect things to change as the season progresses?

I'm not sure. We've swapped Sahin and Allen for Adam and Henderson, which is a huge improvement but it doesn't quite fix what was wrong last season and that is that we seem to have one of the most dysfunctional attacking units in the league.

I feel the greatest burden is on Rodgers right now. We can't spend the whole season moaning about the transfer window again. We did get a couple of good players and Sterling has emerged as a real first team player and will improve as the season goes on. He needs to make this team greater than the sum of it's parts and prove himself as a manager. We don't have the players to play his ideal game of tiki-taka but then neither did Swansea.
 
Like you say we've improved in CM which is huge. Ironically despite having one of the best CB pairings in the league we look shaky at the back, I think I've made my feelings about Reina very clear, I think he has been poor for a couple of seasons now, I would maybe drop him for a couple of games to give him a kick up the backside. That said we do have a strong defence to build upon from the back.

The obvious problem we have is upfront, we can cry about the window all we want but it's closed now and we have to work with what we've got. The one opening it does create is for the young starlets we've been hearing about for years, Sterling has proven to be a revelation, I'd like to see more of the younger ones given the same kind of chance; Suso should be thrown in, give Yesil and whoever else we've got a chance and hope that a couple of them manage to swim. It could prove to be a really exciting opening for some of these players.

I think people need to get over finishing 4th, I didn't think we would even before the season started, I think once we accept that we will see that this actually is the real transition. We've been claiming to be in a transitional period for the last three seasons, but we havent actually tried to rebuild a style or a team in a meaningful way with some real vision , I do believe that that's what BR is doing, and I hope the fans and club get behind him in doing so.
 
I think you'll find most people 'got over' finishing fourth (oh, what a cherished dream, what a noble ideal!) ages ago.
 
It will take 3/4 years based on the current investment.

Got rid of some older players on high wages.

Signed some young hungry players, lower wages.

New system will take time, Swansea were not in full,swing in premier league until xmas.

There will a lot more games like this.
 
You must be exhausted, Spock. No more mind melds with FSG until the next dose of ritalin.
 
Many people mentioned Kenny needed at least a full season to prove himself as well as put things right. Some even agreed 1 season wasn't enough. Now Rodgers face an even more difficult tasks, having lost many players, spent less, have a smaller squad and with European football to contend with.

The heartening thing is that players whom he has given a chance, i.e. Allen, Sterling, Shelvey have proved worthy of his trust. If we compare the results with corresponding fixtures last season, we've got 3 points less (i.e. WBA match). That's with a new manager, new style of play, challenging run of games and dare I say, weaker squad.

He obviously wanted another source of goals thus targeted Gylfi Sigurdsson. I'm not saying Sigurdsson would've made a world of difference but it could well have dictated movements in the market. The way Allen has settled in probably made us forget the fact that we're without Lucas too.

Anyone who thought CL qualification was a genuine target must have been wearing tinted glasses. It was a distant target at best. It's gonna be a long season but let's take each game as it comes.
 
When Fenway Sports Group, the parent company of the Boston Red Sox, acquired Liverpool in October of 2010, it was warmly greeted by the overwhelming majority of club supporters. Part of it had to do with the extreme unpopularity of the previous owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr., whose leveraged acquisition had saddled the club with plenty of debt. But a lot of it was down to the fact that FSG looked to have a clear vision for the club and what was likely to be a long and tricky rebuilding job for England's most popular and successful club, alongside Manchester United.

Nearly two years later, it might be harsh to suggest that Liverpool still finds itself at square one, but progress has been slower than expected.

The point was driven home again Sunday when Liverpool fell 2-0 at home against Arsenal, a result which leaves the Reds with just a single point after their first three matches.

One of the bigger concerns ought to be the 180-degree turn the owners made at the start of the summer, when they abandoned the two-pronged model they had introduced for a structure which concentrated power with the new manager, Brendan Rodgers. The omnipotent coach who doubles as general manager has traditionally been the norm in the British game, though a number of clubs have moved away from that setup for the one favored in most of Europe, where responsibilities are split in two. A G.M. or director of football is charged with handling contracts and acquiring players, while the coach or manager deals with the actual players, running training, selecting the team and making match-day decisions.

This was the model FSG installed, with Frenchman Damien Comolli named director of football strategy and resident legend Kenny Dalglish tapped as manager. Both were relieved of duty by the end of the season. When the club appointed the 39-year-old Rodgers on June 1, he was given sweeping powers. (A sudden sea change at the top that doesn't stop the losses from piling up should sound sadly familiar to Red Sox fans.)

There is no one correct way of doing things, of course. Manchester United, for one, has been tremendously successful in the past few decades with an all-powerful manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, ultimately making every decision. But having chosen the "coach-plus-general manager" model less than two years ago, then abandoning it entirely—rather than simply changing the personnel—raises questions about the clarity of FSG's thinking. The benefits of a director of football aren't just limited to having a specialist who can focus on acquiring the right players at the right price. It is also about continuity and vision in the medium term. Unlike a manager, who has day-to-day preoccupations—among them getting good enough results in the short-term to hang on to his job—a successful director of football can take a longer view that pays dividends down the road.

You assume that's what FSG was trying to do in the club's first two transfer windows, when Liverpool spent some $165 million on seven players. At the time of signing, they had an average of 22 and, the thinking was, Dalglish would make them the backbone of the new Liverpool. Of those seven, two are now gone: midfielder Charlie Adam was sold to Stoke, while center forward Andy Carroll, the biggest ticket item at $50 million, is now on loan at West Ham. Of those remaining, just Luis Suarez and Jose Enrique appear likely to be full-time starters, with the remaining trio likely to come off the bench.

Rodgers has made a different set of choices, spending a combined $40 million on Fabio Borini and Joe Allen, two players he worked with at his previous club, Swansea. He has also taken a gamble on Nuri Sahin, importing him from Real Madrid on a season-long loan for a fee of $6.3 million. Two years ago, Sahin was voted player of the year in Germany's Bundesliga. But last year, hobbled by injuries, he never quite performed to that level and was limited to just two league starts at Madrid. That, coupled with the signing of winger Oussama Assaidi for $4 million and 18-year-old forward Samed Yesil from Bayer Leverkusen was the extent of Liverpool's limited transfer activity.

You can see why some are worried. With Carroll gone, there is no cover for Suarez at center forward, apart from Borini (though that would leave a hole on the wing) and Yesil, who has played just 10 minutes of top-flight soccer in his career. Sahin's arrival also seemed puzzling. While it's not unusual for a club to take on loan a player looking to revive his career, it's unusual to pay such a hefty fee to do so, unless you also negotiate an option to buy him outright. If Sahin has a monster season and goes back to being the player he was two years ago, Liverpool could lose him for nothing or have to negotiate a transfer fee from scratch.

Rodgers got the Liverpool job because of the sterling work he did at Swansea last season, taking a newly-promoted club to the middle of the standings on a shoestring budget. Just as importantly, he drew rave reviews for playing a sparkling, entertaining brand of soccer which prompted some to dub his team "Swanselona." He had more than enough on his plate trying to instill his philosophy at Liverpool—a transition which will necessarily take time—without also being heavily involved in the transfer market.

It is impossible to know whether the absence of a director of football directly led to Liverpool's somewhat puzzling transfer activity. But what appears clear is that, having ditched one model for another in little more than 18 months, it's just about Year Zero once again at Anfield. You also wonder if maybe the owners weren't a bit rash with their 180 degree turn. Rodgers has been given plenty of power, but he also needs, and deserves, time. And even though he might not have asked for it—Rodgers reportedly preferred not to work with a director of football—he might also have benefited from some help in the transfer department.

Rodgers said after Sunday's game that he would never have let Carroll go if he'd known the club would fail to bring in another forward. He added that he had been "very confident" that a replacement would be acquired. He sounded almost as if some other decision-maker hadn't pulled the trigger. But as a manager with wide-ranging powers, the buck stops with him. And with those who believed he could do both jobs on his own.

—Gabriele Marcotti is the world soccer columnist for the Times of London and a regular broadcaster for the BBC.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444301704577627440450663090.html?
 
gkmacca said:
Hear hear, pip pip!
Click to expand...

It's tough times now for our club, but it does seem you're taking tremendous pleasure in this.

Let's hope we work our way out of this - a mess that unfortunately was almost entirely created by our last manager.
 
Can't help but think how things could have been so different if Rodgers had been appointed when we brought Kenny in, and he'd been the man that was given that £100mill to spend.
 
LadyRed said:
Can't help but think how things could have been so different if Rodgers had been appointed when we brought Kenny in, and he'd been the man that was given that £100mill to spend.
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Kenny unfortunately was not the right many for the job. He wasted money on very average players, which seems to have pushed us even further back. It's frustrating, but it's not the end of the world.
 
LadyRed said:
Can't help but think how things could have been so different if Rodgers had been appointed when we brought Kenny in, and he'd been the man that was given that £100mill to spend.
Click to expand...

I've never been able to stop wondering how things would've been had stupid fans and idiotic owners not conspired to force Benitez out, and a very fine manager had finally got the money he'd deserved over the past couple of years.

But never mind!!! Only the odd 10 or 20 years that's put us back!
 
PRAYER IS THE ANSWER

oakvp.gif
 
peterhague said:
I've never been able to stop wondering how things would've been had stupid fans and idiotic owners not conspired to force Benitez out, and a very fine manager had finally got the money he'd deserved over the past couple of years.

But never mind!!! Only the odd 10 or 20 years that's put us back!
Click to expand...

Typical, blind Rafa fan. You really don't think his signings/last year didn't put us back years? He started this slide. Granted, he's not fully to blame for it - a lot of things weren't in his favor, but those that were he fucked up on royally (remember his last league position? Should we go over the worst signings in Liverpool history and talk Aquilani? Keane? etc).

He's never won a league outside of one amazing 3 year spell where all the players he needed were already there ... Let's see if he ever wins a top league again (maybe he'll replace Ancelotti and PSG in Jan).
 
People are talking as though these players have never been asked to press or pass a ball before. This supposedly new system isn't that alien that it should take months or years to implement. Those that were here under Rafa knew how to press well enough and given that we have based our entire transfer strategy on passing statistics one would also have to assume that most of the players in the side know how to pass the ball.

But regardless Rodgers has to be pragmatic and worry about the now as well as the future. If moving from Rafa's 4-2-3-1 or Kenny's whatever to a 4-3-3 modeled after Barcelona is so difficult then he should do it in stages.
 
keniget said:
People are talking as though these players have never been asked to press or pass a ball before. This supposedly new system isn't that alien that it should take months or years to implement. Those that were here under Rafa knew how to press well enough and given that we have based our entire transfer strategy on passing statistics one would also have to assume that most of the players in the side know how to pass the ball.

But regardless Rodgers has to be pragmatic and worry about the now as well as the future. If moving from Rafa's 4-2-3-1 or Kenny's whatever to a 4-3-3 modeled after Barcelona is so difficult then he should do it in stages.
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Gerrard is used to playing kick and rush and being outstanding at it. It's painfully obvious he's out of his depth playing possession football and he isn't about to change. You can't do it by grades. You can't have half the midfield keeping the ball and one of them twatting it and hoping - or today happens.
 
LeTallecWiz said:
Typical, blind Rafa fan. You really don't think his signings/last year didn't put us back years? He started this slide. Granted, he's not fully to blame for it - a lot of things weren't in his favor, but those that were he fucked up on royally (remember his last league position? Should we go over the worst signings in Liverpool history and talk Aquilani? Keane? etc).

He's never won a league outside of one amazing 3 year spell where all the players he needed were already there ... Let's see if he ever wins a top league again (maybe he'll replace Ancelotti and PSG in Jan).
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hahaha.

You're a bloody idiot. Still, you've got plenty of company in that regard, so I shouldn't worry too much. 😀
 
I don't think Gerrard is out of his depth (although it'll be interesting to see what Rodgers will do when Lucas is back) but regardless I'd be tempted to give him a go further up the pitch along with Suarez.

As said the other day, he is the best finisher at the club and right now the whole "greater than the sum of it's parts" thing looks like it'll take time so I'd rather gamble on quality even if it is on the wane.
 
peterhague said:
hahaha.

You're a bloody idiot. Still, you've got plenty of company in that regard, so I shouldn't worry too much. 😀
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Great response. As usual with the few deluded folk who still pretend Rafa knows all, you've resorted to name calling (you could have done better considering your track record tbh) and refused to answer any of the questions. I guess when your messiah spends 50 million on Aquilani, Glen Johnson and Andres Dossena - you kinda really have to have great glasses to ignore the reality.

Or I guess when you put 20 million into Robbie Keane, and then keep him on the bench non-stop and sell him 6 months later and leave us a striker short for 6 months when we were inches away from the title - and missed it due to ... lack of goals!

Go on, keep on harping on this Rafa reality. Define him by the many highs he succeeded in achieving, and the great runs he got out of players hitting their peak. Forget his weaknesses and his major fuck ups ... It's much easier that way.
 
This is about the most shocked and upset I've been since I found out Holland's Lancashire Hotpots take 65 mins from frozen.
 
In the height of summer when the fixtures came out we all knew it could be a horror start.
We're bedding in an entire new midfield and effectively half a team whilst playing some of the strongest teams in the league.

I dont think its time to flap at all yet.
Im not even thinking about it till after these first 5 games.
Im happy we have Rodgers and im really happy with the players he has brought in.
Reina.........hmmmmm.
 
peterhague said:
LOL. I don't resort to insults - they are my number one preference. It's only if the insults don't work that I resort to argument.
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Could have fooled me sir ... but I can't be bothered. Let's make this easy. Rafa was the bestest ever (and I have a very positive view of him overall, not like you, but positive) and his firing was the biggest mistake since bringing in Souness. He was the messiah, and we'll never get back to where we belong until we bring him back. RAFALUTION OR RELEGATION!
 
Herr Onceared said:
In the height of summer when the fixtures came out we all knew it could be a horror start.
We're bedding in an entire new midfield and effectively half a team whilst playing some of the strongest teams in the league.

I dont think its time to flap at all yet.
Im not even thinking about it till after these first 5 games.
Im happy we have Rodgers and im really happy with the players he has brought in.
Reina.........hmmmmm.
Click to expand...

I'd never htought I'd be so happy to see you here ... You're wonderful.
 
Rafa got us closer than anyone will do for a while. sacking him off and everything that has followed has been a mistake.
 
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