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Who gets shipped out and when?

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kingjulian

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There is a lot of clearing of deadwood that needs to be done, and we may also have to rid of some of the aging high earners. Who needs to be moved out and when?

For obvious reasons i have excluded youngsters like Shelvey, Kelly, N'gog, Pacheco etc.


To move out
Poulsen - (Shit aging player. He really is worse than Lucas. The only question is, how soon can we move him out?)
Maxi - (Aging player and high earner)
Kuyt - (Good player but he is getting on and he is a high earner, probably be the best time to move him out)
Jovanovic - (High earner as he came on a free and we will never use a player like him. Not unless we play 4-3-3. Adapting to the league is another question)
Kyrgiakos - (He is 32. He is not that good. Probably a high earner too.)
Babel (Not good enough)
Aquilani - (Sicknote must go regardless of talent)

Undecided
Konchesky (Aging but he is English and we can probably hang on to him for the quota system as he can play a role of providing injury cover)
Lucas (He really seems to be developing. It's not just about football, he seems physically far superior compared to when he came. He seems faster and stronger, but he still has very very ordinary games...so i don't really know)
Cole - (Very high earner nearing 30 and at times looks like that he doesn't have much more football left in his tank. But he is English and is still a good player and will play well when the team plays well.)
Brad Jones - (My opinion is that this reserve keeper should always be a rookie coming through the ranks. But this guy qualifies for local player quota. He probably makes a lot for just sitting on the bench for ever.)

For keeps
Gerrard
Reina
Torres
Carra
Johnson
Agger
Skrtel (It has to be one of Skrtel/Agger, but i wouldn't let either of these go without the chance to properly assess Kelly, Wilson and Ayala)
Meireles (has just come in, and looks like he belongs. At 27, he is no spring chicken, but i think we can keep him)


Have i missed anyone? Because that is 19 players, and it is a ridiculously thin squad and if we have the 4th highest wage in spite of that, then there is something horribly wrong. Are Torres, Gerrard, Pepe and Cara earning that much?
 
we're short of numbers so i don't think any major clearout is appropriate. babel and aquilani for sure, and poulsen. kuyt's a good player but knocking on a bit now so if we got a good offer it might make sense to let him go, although i'm not convinced because he's versatile.
 
Makes sense.

Although i would earmark a few players to be moved out and replaced in Jan, and likewise a few more in the summer.

On another note, may be we should go easy on complaining about Hodgson not making any substitutions, because the cup board is empty and if his first XI can't dominate a game, he usually doesn't have a substitution available that can change things.

In Jan
Poulsen (can he be sold?)
Babel

In the summer
Jovanovic
Kuyt
Aquilani
Maxi
Kyrgiakos



I hope we learn our lesson from the Aquilani, Dossena, Poulsen sagas and stop buying any player from Italian league. We just seem to be incapable of spotting a player who can adapt to the English league.
 
The Greek has done well for the price and he wears the shirt, which is more than can be said for half his team mates, but (bar Kuyt, who's another who fights for the team and IS a good player) I generally agree with the rest.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]
Kyrgiakos - (He is 32. He is not that good. Probably a high earner too.)

[/quote]

When did he last have a bad game?
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]

Have i missed anyone? Because that is 19 players, and it is a ridiculously thin squad and if we have the 4th highest wage in spite of that, then there is something horribly wrong. Are Torres, Gerrard, Pepe and Cara earning that much?

[/quote]

There certainly is something horribly wrong. I'd love to see the actual breakdown, I'd bet there are some horrendous deals on our books.

And I'd be willing to bet that we're probably still paying a portion of the likes of Aquilani and Dossena's salaries too.
 
If we get a new striker then N'gog will leave.

He's getting a lot of games now, other clubs have shown interest in the past so why would he hang around if he gets pushed further down the pecking order?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42594.msg1212002#msg1212002 date=1288945688]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]

Have i missed anyone? Because that is 19 players, and it is a ridiculously thin squad and if we have the 4th highest wage in spite of that, then there is something horribly wrong. Are Torres, Gerrard, Pepe and Cara earning that much?

[/quote]

There certainly is something horribly wrong. I'd love to see the actual breakdown, I'd bet there are some horrendous deals on our books.

And I'd be willing to bet that we're probably still paying a portion of the likes of Aquilani and Dossena's salaries too.
[/quote]

Ya, probaby also the others on loan like Nabil Al Zhar and Degen. Does the wage bill only refer to playing staffs? Seems like its more in reference to the club's entire one instead. I'm wondering if the pay-offs (Rafa's clearout of academy staffs + his subsequent exit with his own bunch of backroom staffs) are being counted into it - cos not all payments are handed out one time off, in full sum (e.g. why some sacked managers have to come to agreement with their previous clubs, before being able to take on new ones)
 
Players like Agger and Kuyt got offered new deals on £70-80K a week, which seems much too much to me.

I bet Maxi and Jova are on a massive wages too.

Farcical.
 
I love how suddenly everyone has become extremely fascinated with the wages the players are on and this whole "value for money" trip (Ross aside). It's amusing.
 
It's a pertinent problem....what's to be surprised about it?

We are the team with the 4th highest wage bill, but we can't afford to bring on decent sub or have our full quota of 25 players. There must be something wrong somewhere...
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212126#msg1212126 date=1288954776]
It's a pertinent problem....what's to be surprised about it?

We are the team with the 4th highest wage bill, but we can't afford to bring on decent sub or have our full quota of 25 players. There must be something wrong somewhere...
[/quote]

+1.

I've always thought there was something amiss given our wages vs the quality of squad.

We must be the most charitable club in the Premiership.

"Here David, have 50k a week for being our 2nd choice striker."
 
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=42594.msg1212141#msg1212141 date=1288956323]
Kuyt does not belong in that first list.
[/quote]

I think the original post is following the NESV 'value for money' model of age v wages.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42594.msg1212148#msg1212148 date=1288957722]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=42594.msg1212141#msg1212141 date=1288956323]
Kuyt does not belong in that first list.
[/quote]

I think the original post is following the NESV 'value for money' model of age v wages.
[/quote]

i'm not quite sure why a player's age is relevant when talking about the value for money of his salary. what difference does it make?

transfer fees, length of contracts - i can see the link with age and value for money there, but not wages.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]
There is a lot of clearing of deadwood that needs to be done, and we may also have to rid of some of the aging high earners. Who needs to be moved out and when?

For obvious reasons i have excluded youngsters like Shelvey, Kelly, N'gog, Pacheco etc.


To move out
Poulsen - (Shit aging player. He really is worse than Lucas. The only question is, how soon can we move him out?)
Maxi - (Aging player and high earner)
Kuyt - (Good player but he is getting on and he is a high earner, probably be the best time to move him out)
Jovanovic - (High earner as he came on a free and we will never use a player like him. Not unless we play 4-3-3. Adapting to the league is another question)
Kyrgiakos - (He is 32. He is not that good. Probably a high earner too.)
Babel (Not good enough)
Aquilani - (Sicknote must go regardless of talent)

Undecided
Konchesky (Aging but he is English and we can probably hang on to him for the quota system as he can play a role of providing injury cover)
Lucas (He really seems to be developing. It's not just about football, he seems physically far superior compared to when he came. He seems faster and stronger, but he still has very very ordinary games...so i don't really know)
Cole - (Very high earner nearing 30 and at times looks like that he doesn't have much more football left in his tank. But he is English and is still a good player and will play well when the team plays well.)
Brad Jones - (My opinion is that this reserve keeper should always be a rookie coming through the ranks. But this guy qualifies for local player quota. He probably makes a lot for just sitting on the bench for ever.)

For keeps
Gerrard
Reina
Torres
Carra
Johnson
Agger
Skrtel (It has to be one of Skrtel/Agger, but i wouldn't let either of these go without the chance to properly assess Kelly, Wilson and Ayala)
Meireles (has just come in, and looks like he belongs. At 27, he is no spring chicken, but i think we can keep him)


Have i missed anyone? Because that is 19 players, and it is a ridiculously thin squad and if we have the 4th highest wage in spite of that, then there is something horribly wrong. Are Torres, Gerrard, Pepe and Cara earning that much?

[/quote]

Ngog?

For me he must be kept, he's doing something not many 'youngsters' coming through into our first team manager, continually improving. Last night he had a poor game by his recent standards, but was still better than he was most of last season.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]

Poulsen - (Shit aging player. He really is worse than Lucas. The only question is, how soon can we move him out?)

Maxi - (Aging player and high earner)

Jovanovic - (High earner as he came on a free and we will never use a player like him. Not unless we play 4-3-3. Adapting to the league is another question)

Babel (Not good enough)

Aquilani - (Sicknote must go regardless of talent)

Konchesky (Aging but he is English and we can probably hang on to him for the quota system as he can play a role of providing injury cover)

Lucas (He really seems to be developing. It's not just about football, he seems physically far superior compared to when he came. He seems faster and stronger, but he still has very very ordinary games...so i don't really know)

Brad Jones - (My opinion is that this reserve keeper should always be a rookie coming through the ranks. But this guy qualifies for local player quota. He probably makes a lot for just sitting on the bench for ever.)
[/quote]

I'd happily see the back of all of these players, although perhaps Jova deserves a bit more time.
joe Cole also needs to fucking sort himself out.
A ig Inter offer from Kuyt would also be good.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42594.msg1212154#msg1212154 date=1288958422]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1211973#msg1211973 date=1288942833]

Poulsen - (Shit aging player. He really is worse than Lucas. The only question is, how soon can we move him out?)

Maxi - (Aging player and high earner)

Jovanovic - (High earner as he came on a free and we will never use a player like him. Not unless we play 4-3-3. Adapting to the league is another question)

Babel (Not good enough)

Aquilani - (Sicknote must go regardless of talent)

Konchesky (Aging but he is English and we can probably hang on to him for the quota system as he can play a role of providing injury cover)

Lucas (He really seems to be developing. It's not just about football, he seems physically far superior compared to when he came. He seems faster and stronger, but he still has very very ordinary games...so i don't really know)

Brad Jones - (My opinion is that this reserve keeper should always be a rookie coming through the ranks. But this guy qualifies for local player quota. He probably makes a lot for just sitting on the bench for ever.)
[/quote]

I'd happily see the back of all of these players, although perhaps Jova deserves a bit more time.
joe Cole also needs to fucking sort himself out.
A ig Inter offer from Kuyt would also be good.
[/quote]
I'd never understand why you of all people keep your verdict out on Jova?

I've seen more than enough already to know he's never going to be a player that'll make it at the highest level. It was my guess after seeing him at the WC and still is. You just don't go from the Belgian League to a top tier team at the age of 29-years-old when you've never been tested at that level. Perhaps if you were a rock solid BIG central defender but that's the only area I think you'll ever see that swap pan out good.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42594.msg1212149#msg1212149 date=1288958000]
i'm not quite sure why a player's age is relevant when talking about the value for money of his salary. what difference does it make?

transfer fees, length of contracts - i can see the link with age and value for money there, but not wages.
[/quote]

Does it make you happy if i said that Kuyt is probably not likely to sustain the performance he gave us at his best, and for the money he is earning there are better players available? Age is a factor in that we are going to get a declining return on investment both in term of transfer fee we may be able to recoup and on the field performance. We have two other who are aging in Gerrard and Carra but they are indispensable for the club, and Kuyt, Maxi and Jovanovic are not in that category......happy with that explanation?
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212126#msg1212126 date=1288954776]
It's a pertinent problem....what's to be surprised about it?

We are the team with the 4th highest wage bill, but we can't afford to bring on decent sub or have our full quota of 25 players. There must be something wrong somewhere...
[/quote]

Because up until recently these discussions were being argued differently. Now every second post someone is banging on about the importance of getting bang for our buck and the diminishing value for ageing players like they've been arguing it their entire lives.

It just amuses me how everyone has become so bought in so quickly.
 
Because up until recently these discussions were being argued differently. Now every second post someone is banging on about the importance of getting bang for our buck and the diminishing value for ageing players like they've been arguing it their entire lives.

It just amuses me how everyone has become so bought in so quickly.

Indeed. I wonder if this philosophy would also have applied to Gerrard had NSEV been in charge a few years ago?

"Oh, yes, let's sell him now at his peak, because we'll get £50m and he'll never be worth that again. Look, I've done some workings out on my Excel spreadsheet and also a graph"

Cunt off
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42594.msg1212161#msg1212161 date=1288959855]
Because up until recently these discussions were being argued differently. Now every second post someone is banging on about the importance of getting bang for our buck and the diminishing value for ageing players like they've been arguing it their entire lives.

It just amuses me how everyone has become so bought in so quickly.

Indeed. I wonder if this philosophy would also have applied to Gerrard had NSEV been in charge a few years ago?

"Oh, yes, let's sell him now at his peak, because we'll get £50m and he'll never be worth that again. Look, I've done some workings out on my Excel spreadsheet and also a graph"

Cunt off
[/quote]

If only someone had done that for Owen.
 
It's something that sounds logical and people have bought into it. You feel free to play the devil's advocate if you think otherwise.

I don't think the reaction would be the same, if the came in and said they will purchase all Real Madrid rejects or buy the best players from lower leagues or that they will use only players from our academy and they will buy players only for the academy.

Who doesn't want value for money? Especially after the big wastage of money in the last 4 or even 5 transfer windows. I think this point probably has also been discussed to death here before, and it's not a new NESV phenomena...
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212163#msg1212163 date=1288960010]
It's something that sounds logical and people have bought into it. You feel free to play the devil's advocate if you think otherwise.
[/quote]

So far they haven't really said that much though other than the fact that they want to be smarter and get value for money in the transfer market. And like you say *everyone* wants value for money, so we're not really treading on new ground there.

That aside, everyone has been making assumptions to some degree about what their ideas are based on their past with Red Sox, which is fair enough to a point, but it's just the way that those assumptions have formed into arguments that have so completely replaced previous ways of arguing the same subjects that I find quite obvious.

You can feel free to disagree, but that's what I see in a lot of the threads at the moment.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212163#msg1212163 date=1288960010]
It's something that sounds logical and people have bought into it. You feel free to play the devil's advocate if you think otherwise.

I don't think the reaction would be the same, if the came in and said they will purchase all Real Madrid rejects or buy the best players from lower leagues or that they will use only players from our academy and they will buy players only for the academy.

Who doesn't want value for money? Especially after the big wastage of money in the last 4 or even 5 transfer windows. I think this point probably has also been discussed to death here before, and it's not a new NESV phenomena...
[/quote]

Heh, as a side point.. there's nothing wrong with buying a few Real Madrid rejects as a strategy! It seems like whenever we've been linked with one of them, someone comes out and says "no, they're Real rejects and consequently not good enough for LFC".

Some of the Real Madrid rejects in recent years: Robben, Sneijder and VDV. And before that Eto'o. There's a lot of quality to be had from buying from Real.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212158#msg1212158 date=1288959179]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42594.msg1212149#msg1212149 date=1288958000]
i'm not quite sure why a player's age is relevant when talking about the value for money of his salary. what difference does it make?

transfer fees, length of contracts - i can see the link with age and value for money there, but not wages.
[/quote]

Does it make you happy if i said that Kuyt is probably not likely to sustain the performance he gave us at his best, and for the money he is earning there are better players available? Age is a factor in that we are going to get a declining return on investment both in term of transfer fee we may be able to recoup and on the field performance. We have two other who are aging in Gerrard and Carra but they are indispensable for the club, and Kuyt, Maxi and Jovanovic are not in that category......happy with that explanation?


[/quote]

no.

wages aren't an investment - in accounting parlance, they're an operating cost, a revenue item. if a player does a job for one year that's 'worth' £60k a week, what's the difference if that player is 24 or 37? none, as far as i can see. the important thing is not to pay out excessively large transfer fees for older players, and avoid giving older players excessively long contracts.
 
Agreed but move:
Lucas ->Fuck off
Konchesky->Move out
Jovanovic->Undecided
Agger->Undecided
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42594.msg1212167#msg1212167 date=1288960580]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42594.msg1212158#msg1212158 date=1288959179]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42594.msg1212149#msg1212149 date=1288958000]
i'm not quite sure why a player's age is relevant when talking about the value for money of his salary. what difference does it make?

transfer fees, length of contracts - i can see the link with age and value for money there, but not wages.
[/quote]

Does it make you happy if i said that Kuyt is probably not likely to sustain the performance he gave us at his best, and for the money he is earning there are better players available? Age is a factor in that we are going to get a declining return on investment both in term of transfer fee we may be able to recoup and on the field performance. We have two other who are aging in Gerrard and Carra but they are indispensable for the club, and Kuyt, Maxi and Jovanovic are not in that category......happy with that explanation?


[/quote]

no.

wages aren't an investment - in accounting parlance, they're an operating cost, a revenue item. if a player does a job for one year that's 'worth' £60k a week, what's the difference if that player is 24 or 37? none, as far as i can see. the important thing is not to pay out excessively large transfer fees for older players, and avoid giving older players excessively long contracts.
[/quote]

I think the obvious thing here is it's better to sell Kuyt whilst his value is high than to give him a short-term contract (and risk him leaving at the end of it for a pittance). For younger players, you can afford to give them lesser money (they've not been in the game for long) and longer contracts (hence their value is protected). It's a legitimate strategy to sell older players on big contracts and not risk them going on free (if they're not happy with short-term deals).
 
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